Creature Handler Archive

Really, ive read a lump of the post and i wonder, why does everyone have to rush. Sometimes i wonder what all these players miss when their just running here and there, maybe im still to new at the game ive been at it for 4 months, but i get excited about the little stuff, the ships landing in mos eisly the star destroyers in the orbiting Tattoine, infact still my favorite moment was when i was climbing the monument at the battlefield on naboo and 4 gungans put a raid on the storm troopers that patroled the area i watched that for 10 minutes, for no reason, no one really died or won that i know of, but i guess i play the game and become imersed in it, im not so much task oriented in rl you dont keep your 10 ton rancor in your pocket, you take it for walks and play with it, so i say if they give you 30 secconds take that 30 secconds and enjoy whats going on around you lord knows atleast with the changes the game isnt static.

Wow, I can't believe what I'm reading in this thread. It's amazing how people only care about themselves and don't realize that there are other people playing the game too and *gasp* not all of them areCHs. I'm a novice CH myself at the moment (along with Musician, Pistoleer and Novice Medic)so maybe I don't understand all the nuances of the profession but I can't understand why people are so against this 30sec rule.I skipped a few pages because it wasgetting bored with the childish whiningso forgive me if I'm repeating something already mentionedbut I wanted to give my thoughts ona few things.

First of all, I've been here since beta (even though I never bother to post on the boards)and I've seen the game go through many changes. As someone who worked as a game developer you people don't give the devs enough credit. If I have to read one more time that the game is broken and (and this one always makes me laugh) that the devs are conspiring to ruin the game for THEM I'm going to puke. If you don't think the devs aren't trying to make this game as good as they possible can you're just an idiot. Does the game have bugs? You bet! But this a VERY complex game with I'm sure millions of lines of code that is constantly being changed and updated and bugs will happen. Also, to think the devs aren't listening to you is just silly. They listen to you. They also listen to every other profession whine about themselves too.Try reading any other professions boards. They're all the same. I go back to my first point. This game isn't just about YOU. It has to be fun for EVERYONE. That's a very fine line to balance.

Now, off my soapbox and back on topic.I have to say I totally agree with DeneziB on this one. The first few times I read people write that their pets are there weapons I had to wonder what you people are smoking. Pets are NOT weapons. As DeneziBrightly pointed outthey are basically another person fighting WITH you. I can't understand whymost of you can'trealized this. The difference between your pet and a gun is that your gun is not a tank. If you're in the middle of being attacked and you switch weapons, well, your still being attacked and it's still just YOU against the enemy. If however you and your uberpet are taking on a big beast you are most likely using your pet as a tank. How many times do you attack before your pet? Be truthful. Now, if he isabout to die and there's no 30 second rule well just store him, bring out another tank, have him attack and take all the damage while you fight from a safe distance, never having to worry about being hit. Exactly HOW is this the same someone being able to switch weapons during a fight? Please explain.

So, some of yousay that if you're just a CH you have no other weapon. Well, I'm willing to bet that the majority of CHs have at least ONE other combat skill. If you have even ONE other combat skill you have a distinct advantage because you now have TWO weapons. Heck even if you have no other combat skill you can still fire a CDEF. If you can call 3 pets you now have 4 weapons. If you're one of the very few people who has no other combat skills I'd maybe rethink your character or find some other people to hunt with. Also, don't forget that ANYONE can use a pet. I go back to my original argument, don't think only about yourself for once.Even though YOU might not have any other combat skills, that doesn't mean there aren't Commandos out there with CH skills as well. Being able to pull out pets at ANY time is HUGE advantage for THEM.

The next argument was that as long as you can't pull out pets in the middle of battle, whats the problem? Well the problem is that as long as your pet is busy fighting the MOB you can stop at any time pull out another pet, sick him on the prey, store the first pet. Call the first pet again. Heal him. Repeat. Now since pets can't ever really die, unlike guns by the way which do decay, you have an endless supply of pets to fight for you. How is this the same as a Commando being able to switch armour during a fight? Please explain. Now at 30 seconds you can still do this but it's a bit of hassle and you have to make sure your pets can last 30 seconds. At 10 seconds (as some have suggested), well, most pets can last that long and you can still use this strategy. I'm sure there's a reason they picked 30 seconds.

Another thing people mentioned made me laugh. They said well since there's a bug that sometimes causes pets and vehicles to autostore I now have to wait another 30 secs to get my pet back. Well, if they fix the bug (no smartass remarks please) then this argument is invalid as well.

I'd also like to remind most of you that the only reason they are doing this is that people complained that having to build a camp every time they wanted to call a pet or vehicle was stupid. I agree. Sorry, I don't have a factory to make endless camps. I hate having to craft a stupid camp just to call my pet. Again, you think the devs don't listen. They listened and they changed this butNOW they have toconsider how being able to call pets anywhere will effect other aspects of the game. I gave one example. DeneziB gave one as well. I'm sure there are others.

Anyway, this post is WAY longer than I intended and probably more hostile than I intended as well. I just think you're all getting your panties in bunch for nothing.I really don't see how this is the end of the world. Also,the devs didn't specify weather this 30sec rule will also apply in camps and cities. I'm assuming it doesn't inwhich case those of you with endless camps can still do what you've always done. So, what's the problem?

ok we got 8 pages of people who are very unhappy with the 30 second timer, when you get that i think you need to look at what you did devs. i have not seen a post yet that is for this moronic crap because no logical person would be. can you guys lay off whatever it is your smoking over there for a while so you dont make such horrible, illogical, tricksy, stupid, dumb, ignorant, less than intelligent changes? we put up so many reasons to shoot this down and we shot down every dumb ass excuse you guys put up and you still push this out. ok what the hell are these forums for? to ask us stuff then not listen the just do what you want?

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gando wrote:

Um, I know I will receive a host of attacks for this, but I don't have a problem with any of the camp changes. What is so awfull about 30 seconds? I was getting tired of wasting camps so I and my group could just pull a pet or vehicle for 2 seconds, instead of using it for what it was intended. I am very HAPPY about this change, and I find it hard to believe that those 30 seconds seriously ruins anyones gaming experience. If you don't like it through a camp, problem solved. But I think alot of the vehemence displayed here is nothing more than whinning. This allows the benefits of camps and the desire of players to be balanced, soe has more than one prof to think about. And I am a CH if anyone is wondering.

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There are several threads discussing why 30 sec is bad. Now if the vehicles and pets NEVER autostored the 30 sec *Might* be livable even without valid justification (not that the DEVs have to justify their choices. They write the game ) However I wish to point out that as written in the official info from TH there is a 30 sec wait for all called creatures (including vehicles) anywhere anytime. No special exemption for camps,town, home. I have not seen an update stating differently. Have you any update from the DEV's or the Test Center.

-Indene-

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DaRoamer wrote:

Wow, I can't believe what I'm reading in this thread. It's amazing how people only care about themselves and don't realize that there are other people playing the game too and *gasp* not all of them are CHs.

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Non logical conclusion from available facts. (I *did* read all the pages of this post.) Those who provided resoned opinions as to why the arguments in favor of the 30 sec delay were invalid were obviously thinking about more then themselves. Those who noticed that the delay applies to everyone who pulls out a pet or droid or vehicle where at least aware that the delay will impact the majority of the player base. So you left out an important word "some" in front of people in the paragraph above.

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DaRoamer wrote:
I'm a novice CH myself at the moment (along with Musician, Pistoleer and Novice Medic) so maybe I don't understand all the nuances of the profession but I can't understand why people are so against this 30 sec rule. I skipped a few pages because it was getting bored with the childish whining so forgive me if I'm repeating something already mentioned but I wanted to give my thoughts on a few things.

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The whining is annoying (and so is the 30 sec delay)

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DaRoamer wrote:

First of all, I've been here since beta (even though I never bother to post on the boards) and I've seen the game go through many changes. As someone who worked as a game developer you people don't give the devs enough credit. (snip)

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No we do not.

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DaRoamer wrote:
I have to say I totally agree with DeneziB on this one. The first few times I read people write that their pets are there weapons I had to wonder what you people are smoking.

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Invalid debate tactic. Attacking the person instead of the ideas.

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DaRoamer wrote:
Pets are NOT weapons. As DeneziB rightly pointed out they are basically another person fighting WITH you. I can't understand why most of you can't realized this.

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What puzzles most of us is that DeneziB and you do not seem to grasp game based reality. To whit if I just happen to be a Master Merchant and Master Creature Handler I have very few skill points for anything like a machine weapons based class. I did manage to keep the 4 elements of pistol in marksman and I could get novice pistoleer if I give up the 2 left most elements of my artisan (what is left of it ) That being said if I were more of an artisan I would have to give up pistols thus the pets would become my sole source of damage dealing. Now lets take your argument that they are 'friends' fighting at my side. Is your argument that when you call your in game friends they arrive more than 30 sec after you call? Then for balance maybe we should add a longer timer and we should include the timer on group forming to maintain this balance you speak of.

Now for another way of looking at pets. They are not our weapons. They are our weapons and our armor. Yes you say I as a human can wear uber composite armor. But why think jsut of me? What about a wookie? No composite for them. So now the pets are both damage dealing tools and armor. Are they really armor. No. Do they provide some of the same functions as armor? Yes. Same metapor for the pets as weapons. A weapon is a method of damage dealing to the target. As such a TKA is the weapon. Area and direct poisons with and without DOT effect are damage dealing methods. As an MCH and no other significant combat skills that is what the pets do for me. I would use you instead of the pets if you were willing and available. I'm not picky. In fact the reason I got into CH was that my friends were not available many of the times I needed the protections. This is called enlightened self interest by the way. Could I take a combat role into my template? Yes. But the point of having mix and match templates was to let me choose what I wanted to be. Why am I being punished because a postulated person could exist that takes advantage of what I have (pets) and what they add to their template (commando for instance) Why are they being punished for being the best they can be? (warrior)

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DaRoamer wrote:
The difference between your pet and a gun is that your gun is not a tank. If you're in the middle of being attacked and you switch weapons, well, your still being attacked and it's still just YOU against the enemy. If however you and your uberpet are taking on a big beast you are most likely using your pet as a tank. How many times do you attack before your pet? Be truthful. Now, if he is about to die and there's no 30 second rule well just store him,

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Oops you forgot the 60sec store delay. The scenario is not possible even now before the 30 sec calling delay.

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DaRoamer wrote:
bring out another tank, have him attack and take all the damage while you fight from a safe distance, never having to worry about being hit. Exactly HOW is this the same someone being able to switch weapons during a fight? Please explain.

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Since this can not be done the point is invalidated.

Now if you ment that you were allowing us to store and call without delay and to call even though we are in combat then the similarity is that my rifle became in operative (died) and I had to switch to another rifle. Remember we are talking about a person with CH and no other combat skill as compaired to one with no CH and does have other combat skills.

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DaRoamer wrote:

So, some of you say that if you're just a CH you have no other weapon. Well, I'm willing to bet that the majority of CHs have at least ONE other combat skill. If you have even ONE other combat skill you have a distinct advantage because you now have TWO weapons. Heck even if you have no other combat skill you can still fire a CDEF. If you can call 3 pets you now have 4 weapons.

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5 or more weapons. You forgot traps and grenades.

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DaRoamer wrote:
If you're one of the very few people who has no other combat skills I'd maybe rethink your character or find some other people to hunt with. Also, don't forget that ANYONE can use a pet. I go back to my original argument, don't think only about yourself for once.

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We have been thinking about others. (vehicles,droids, other CH chars)

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DaRoamer wrote:
Even though YOU might not have any other combat skills, that doesn't mean there aren't Commandos out there with CH skills as well. Being able to pull out pets at ANY time is HUGE advantage for THEM.

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Proof by bald assertion. Give examples please and explain why they are bad.
Remember the point of adjustable templates is to allow each person the ability to analyze the strengths and weaknesses and build a template that they want to play. It will be very difficult to create a set of templates that would NEVER allow an advantage to some characters.

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DaRoamer wrote:

The next argument was that as long as you can't pull out pets in the middle of battle, whats the problem? Well the problem is that as long as your pet is busy fighting the MOB you can stop at any time pull out another pet, sick him on the prey, store the first pet. Call the first pet again. Heal him. Repeat.

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What you seem to be describing (poorly) is good battle tactics. Why would we store the first pet btw.
Just heal him while the other pet beats the mob. Or better let both pets beat the mob and you heal both pets. We use the same basic tactics if we are grouped with other humans instead or with pets. This scenario presumes that the MOB is doing less damage over time than I can heal. There is a delay on the use of med paks for both stims and pet stims. Oh and remeber we have to wait 60 sec after we successfully disengage that first pet before we could store him and as long as the pet is being attacked (the 2nd pet has not aquired aggro) it is hard to get it to disengage (is it even possible?)

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DaRoamer wrote:
Now since pets can't ever really die, unlike guns by the way which do decay, you have an endless supply of pets to fight for you.

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There appear to be some elements of game mechanics of which you are un aware. Do you know what a Vitality pack is good for?

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DaRoamer wrote:

How is this the same as a Commando being able to switch armour during a fight? Please explain.

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I got lost. I think it is the same which is why the delays are annoying or dangerous.

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DaRoamer wrote:
Now at 30 seconds you can still do this but it's a bit of hassle and you have to make sure your pets can last 30 seconds. At 10 seconds (as some have suggested), well, most pets can last that long and you can still use this strategy. I'm sure there's a reason they picked 30 seconds.

Another thing people mentioned made me laugh.
They said well since there's a bug that sometimes causes pets and vehicles to autostore I now have to wait another 30 secs to get my pet back. Well, if they fix the bug (no smartass remarks please) then this argument is invalid as well.

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FYI sometimes is a very subjective term and for many people (remember think about others ) it is a lot not a sometimes.

Fix autostore and pets stuck at boundries then I will tolerate the 30 sec timer. I for one would rather not have to keep my pets out causeing lag in busy areas (see I do think about others) but if I must then I will. Now that we have been able to agree that the 30 sec delay is much less serious if all pet path and autostore problems are fixed you can revisit the other points and try again to invalidate them.
I can't speak for others on their toleration of the 30 sec call delay timer.

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DaRoamer wrote:
I'd also like to remind most of you that the only reason they are doing this is that people complained that having to build a camp every time they wanted to call a pet or vehicle was stupid. I agree. Sorry, I don't have a factory to make endless camps. I hate having to craft a stupid camp just to call my pet. Again, you think the devs don't listen. They listened and they changed this but NOW they have to consider how being able to call pets anywhere will effect other aspects of the game. I gave one example. DeneziB gave one as well. I'm sure there are others.

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It would be nice to see some that were common rather than rare (called strawman argument btw).
As was pointed out to DeneziB and you should know full well since you have been around for a while (maybe not as a CH but you would have noticed) there were many months when a CH could call 1 or more pets ANYWHERE off their home planet. And I heard but never proved that they could call ANYWHERE on their home planet away from their declared residence. I hear but can not prove that there were more players back then. You would think that if there was a credible issue (ie common enough practice) with the instacall of pets that there would be lots of examples and probably forum discussions of this. Now I was very new then so missed most of it but surly if such problems existed you and DeneziB (and others) could give examples that could be of common (mis) use.

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DaRoamer wrote:

Anyway, this post is WAY longer than I intended and probably more hostile than I intended as well. I just think you're all getting your panties in bunch for nothing. I really don't see how this is the end of the world. Also, the devs didn't specify weather this 30sec rule will also apply in camps and cities. I'm assuming it doesn't in which case those of you with endless camps can still do what you've always done. So, what's the problem?

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The 30 sec call timer does NOT specify any exemptions (this does not mean there are any but you know what happens to those who assume )

Read the rest of the thread(s) for many reasoned and unreasoned arguments against the 30 sec call timer. and maybe you will gain additional insight into the minds of the others you tell us we should care about.

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Whew you are right DaRoamer that was a long post.

-Indene-

/applauds Nimh for giving a constructive and insightfull post. Many of you others should take notice.

Foth!

While playing earlier today I realized another objection to the 30 sec delay. It only applies to a few people so may not be taken very seriously but the examples of griefing would only apply to a few people and somehow they were very important points in favor of the 30 sec delay.

The Scenario.

I, a MCH with only minimal combat skills and no medic skills and 0 skillpoints left (artisan and Master Merchant take up the rest) am out traveling from village to village. For whatever reason I choose not to use the shuttles (9min 59 sec wait cause I just missed it (grrr to time sink but realistic at least.) so since it is a short 4 min ride to next village/stop I hop on my bike and ride. On the way I fall across some spineflap soldiers. No biggie I can outrun them so I ignore the music. Alas an NPC StormTrooper sees the attack and jumps to my aid even though I am neutral (have + REB and + IMP faction. Kinda nice). Since I am a role player I want to go to his aid (even if medic I wouldn't be allowed to heal him) so there are like 6 Spineflap soldiers on him and his health is dropping faster than theirs. Where are my 'weapons'/'friends' you ask? In the datapad. They keep getting lost or stuck at server boundries so I don't often keep them out. No problem I am practiced and I have a camp kit already built and in my inv. Bummer. too close to buldings. Many seconds later (I didn't count) I find a place to build the tent and call my 2 most common pets. Back we go. Sigh we are too late. The NPC lies dead at the feet of the spineflaps. (I took vengence on them and killed them all. There were no innocent ones all 6 had attacked)

2nd scenario

I, a Master Pistoleer (instead of MCH) don't have to wait or find a camp to draw my pistol (the one that doesnt get lost or stuck on server boundries) Jump to the aid of the NPC and we make short work of the spineflaps.

3rd scenario

I, a Master Rifleman.....

4th scenario

I, a Master Carbineer... Lay dead but the NPC lived (based on the sig line of the carbineer ' I and my carbine can kill me faster than you can


Now I sometimes find people in the wild under attack and loseing. I do not like having to find a place (easier in very wild and no lairs) to set a camp to call my 'friends' to come to the aid of the PC that really needed help but with the 30 sec timer that is the way of it. As any Rescue person knows every second counts and 30 sec is easily the difference between life and death. Good thing that death is not serious in this world unless you are Jedi. Of course if I didn't roleplay why would I care if a PC was being killed. Oh wait. I care because I do think about others even when not roleplaying.

If my pets could stay with me and or ride in my vehicle (outside the data pad) for role play I would most certainly keep them out most/all the time.


-Indene- (All hail the calling delay in the wild (30 sec or camp setup it is still life or death to a victim ) )

P.S. The astute observer will notice a game play imbalance when comparing the 4 scenarios. But only if CH is considered a combat class. If they are just zookeepers then the entire set of arguments about pets as weapons/armor is moot.

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DeneziB wrote:
Yeah? And in those six months were there mounts, vehicles, jedi, functional turrets, etc.? The game has evolved in complexity since the time period you describe.

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This bug I described wasn't fixed until shortly after vehicles were introduced. So yes, absolutely this is a valid test case.

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mochloD wrote:

All we want is to keep functionality in camps as they are without making 30 skills points (in scout and ranger survival lines) WORTHLESS. We also dont want to be penalized for poor coding (autostore bugs).

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As a scout/ranger I really have to reiterate that calling pets in a camp doesn't matter at all. It may be the *one* surviving use for a camp, but it simply doesn't matter. Setting up a camp to call pets is a waste of a camping kit. Even at master Ranger I intend to keep a crate of basic camps on me because I'm not going to waste the good ones.

Even if this is currently the primary use for camps, it's not a good use of them. I would kiss off this one so-called perk gladly with or without others to replace it. I would hope for others, but it wouldn't break my heart to give this one up.