Creature Handler Archive
Thread: Taming CL80 creatures is the last thing this profession needs to be balanced.
Feel free to disagree and/or flame, but the taming necklace is probably the very last thing CHs need to balance themselves with other combat professions.
What do we need you ask?
Simply put, we need the modification of an existing game play feature, one that has been in place since the CU went live. We need for our pets to effectively take the masters CL for damage calculations, that’s right we do NOT need any new items or skill enhancements. what we essentially need is when the pet is called it will automatically check the CL of the player that owns it and set its effective CL = to that. This will not change the actual CL or stats of the pet in any way. A CL70 pet called by a CL54 toon will still be treated as a CL70 pet for his/her max level of pets limit. The only thing that will change is that when the pet takes damage it will do so as if its CL was that of the owners.
The developers have already done something similar to this in the past. Remember back when the CU came out how a CL80 player could ride by a group of CL30 aggros creatures on a CL10 mount and then suddenly find his mount incapped by said CL30 creatures that leave the master alone? The fix for this was that the developers coded the game so that the pets CL was treated as its masters for the purpose of aggro detection, so a CL80 player wouldn’t risk losing vitality on his/her mount just from riding around the woods. This means that the system for referencing variables between the pet and master is already in place.
Why is this a better solution to having 1 CL80?
Simply because it gives us more options and drastically improves our DPS, since this will be effectively like grouping pets without taking up the group spot or having the GUI to show health. Lets look at some numbers, which would you rather have 3 pets that do 200 damage each, 2 pets that do 275, or 1 pet that does 450? The 3 pets obviously have the higher DPS but collectively has the lower health. This way CHs can actually choose to use triplets and twins in a group and not take any group spot and still be effective.
I know what some of you are thinking. "Hey I'm a dancer/MCH (or some other non-combat/MCH combo)that means that my CL70 pet will actually get weaker while CL80 players pets will get stronger! It makes absolutely no sense that my pet’s strength should be determined by mine! THATS NOT FAIR!!!" Why does it make sense that a merchant/MRM's laser bolt would do less damage than a TKM/MRM's? It doesn’t this is something we call balance, and before balance all logic must go out the window. First off realize that you are trying to apply logic and reason to a video game, second realize that said video game is set in a time and place where things like giant ant lions eat bounty hunters and somehow keep them alive for thousands of years in the process and that there are samurai like people running around shooting lightning bolts out of their finger tips while wielding a sword made out of a laser. If you haven’t alreadyrealized how illogical it is to try to apply logic to a video game, much less one like then I encourage you to do the human race a favorremove yourself from the gene pool by whatever means necessary immediately before its to late.
If you want combat effectiveness then your going to have to come out of the cantina, merchant tent, or whatever non-combat building/place your other profession puts you inand pick up a weapon. Plain and simple.
Wow that was a really long post and I usuially try to avoid writing those.
Joker9125 wrote:
Feel free to disagree and/or flame, but the taming necklace is probably the very last thing CHs need to balance themselves with other combat professions.
What do we need you ask?
Simply put, we need the modification of an existing game play feature, one that has been in place since the CU went live. We need for our pets to effectively take the masters CL for damage calculations, that’s right we do NOT need any new items or skill enhancements. what we essentially need is when the pet is called it will automatically check the CL of the player that owns it and set its effective CL = to that. This will not change the actual CL or stats of the pet in any way. A CL70 pet called by a CL54 toon will still be treated as a CL70 pet for his/her max level of pets limit. The only thing that will change is that when the pet takes damage it will do so as if its CL was that of the owners.
The developers have already done something similar to this in the past. Remember back when the CU came out how a CL80 player could ride by a group of CL30 aggros creatures on a CL10 mount and then suddenly find his mount incapped by said CL30 creatures that leave the master alone? The fix for this was that the developers coded the game so that the pets CL was treated as its masters for the purpose of aggro detection, so a CL80 player wouldn’t risk losing vitality on his/her mount just from riding around the woods. This means that the system for referencing variables between the pet and master is already in place.
Why is this a better solution to having 1 CL80?
Simply because it gives us more options and drastically improves our DPS, since this will be effectively like grouping pets without taking up the group spot or having the GUI to show health. Lets look at some numbers, which would you rather have 3 pets that do 200 damage each, 2 pets that do 275, or 1 pet that does 450? The 3 pets obviously have the higher DPS but collectively has the lower health. This way CHs can actually choose to use triplets and twins in a group and not take any group spot and still be effective.
Why is this a solution that creates a massive IMBALANCE that would get CH nerfed again?
Simply because if the system bumped the CL of a set of Triplets to 80, regardless of health and to hit modifiers - PvP would become a matter of who had the best BE triplet set. The CL modifiers exist FOR balance, and negating the modifiers by classing 3 pets as CL 80 when grouped would equal 1 player fighting ith the power of 4. The 3 low level pets doing a modified 80 damage EACH means the player has a bit of a boost - By Negating the CL differences as you suggest, 3 pets fighting as a modified CL 80 would be hitting for full damage each time - vastly increasing the power of a CH in PvP.
1 CL 80 pet on the other hand, although it hits as a CL 80 SHOULD, is limited because it's merely one additional target, not 3. It adds to the DPS in a singular line, not an exponential one.
Phaelyn wrote:
Joker9125 wrote:
Feel free to disagree and/or flame, but the taming necklace is probably the very last thing CHs need to balance themselves with other combat professions.
What do we need you ask?
Simply put, we need the modification of an existing game play feature, one that has been in place since the CU went live. We need for our pets to effectively take the masters CL for damage calculations, that’s right we do NOT need any new items or skill enhancements. what we essentially need is when the pet is called it will automatically check the CL of the player that owns it and set its effective CL = to that. This will not change the actual CL or stats of the pet in any way. A CL70 pet called by a CL54 toon will still be treated as a CL70 pet for his/her max level of pets limit. The only thing that will change is that when the pet takes damage it will do so as if its CL was that of the owners.
Why is this a solution that creates a massive IMBALANCE that would get CH nerfed again?
Simply because if the system bumped the CL of a set of Triplets to 80, regardless of health and to hit modifiers - PvP would become a matter of who had the best BE triplet set. The CL modifiers exist FOR balance, and negating the modifiers by classing 3 pets as CL 80 when grouped would equal 1 player fighting ith the power of 4. The 3 low level pets doing a modified 80 damage EACH means the player has a bit of a boost - By Negating the CL differences as you suggest, 3 pets fighting as a modified CL 80 would be hitting for full damage each time - vastly increasing the power of a CH in PvP.
1 CL 80 pet on the other hand, although it hits as a CL 80 SHOULD, is limited because it's merely one additional target, not 3. It adds to the DPS in a singular line, not an exponential one.
Hmm I'll answer you question with another one. Is it overpowering for a CL80 MCH to group a set of triplets and PvP now? What I am proposing is basically like always having you pets grouped to you all the time without taking up group spots.
Ill go ahead and put this into further perspective, I know of an exploit that allows me to pull 5 CL70 pets at once, thats right 5 and no I will not post any specifics on how to do this as I have already submitted a /bug in game. Just to test this I pulled all 5 grouped them (which raised their effective CL to 80) I am a MCH/MBH/4000CM and I dueled a guildie to see how effective this was. You would think that 5 CL70 pets could kill a player by themselves but my guildie procedded to kill every sinlge one of my pets then he finished me off (and no im no noob at PvP either) so how would having 3 CL23s grouped be even remotely uber?
Message Edited by Joker9125 on 10-31-2005 09:14 PM
Joker9125 wrote:
Phaelyn wrote:
Joker9125 wrote:
Feel free to disagree and/or flame, but the taming necklace is probably the very last thing CHs need to balance themselves with other combat professions.
What do we need you ask?
Simply put, we need the modification of an existing game play feature, one that has been in place since the CU went live. We need for our pets to effectively take the masters CL for damage calculations, that’s right we do NOT need any new items or skill enhancements. what we essentially need is when the pet is called it will automatically check the CL of the player that owns it and set its effective CL = to that. This will not change the actual CL or stats of the pet in any way. A CL70 pet called by a CL54 toon will still be treated as a CL70 pet for his/her max level of pets limit. The only thing that will change is that when the pet takes damage it will do so as if its CL was that of the owners.
Why is this a solution that creates a massive IMBALANCE that would get CH nerfed again?
Simply because if the system bumped the CL of a set of Triplets to 80, regardless of health and to hit modifiers - PvP would become a matter of who had the best BE triplet set. The CL modifiers exist FOR balance, and negating the modifiers by classing 3 pets as CL 80 when grouped would equal 1 player fighting ith the power of 4. The 3 low level pets doing a modified 80 damage EACH means the player has a bit of a boost - By Negating the CL differences as you suggest, 3 pets fighting as a modified CL 80 would be hitting for full damage each time - vastly increasing the power of a CH in PvP.
1 CL 80 pet on the other hand, although it hits as a CL 80 SHOULD, is limited because it's merely one additional target, not 3. It adds to the DPS in a singular line, not an exponential one.
Hmm I'll answer you question with another one. Is it overpowering for a CL80 MCH to group a set of triplets and PvP now? What I am proposing is basically like always having you pets grouped to you all the time without taking up group spots.
Ill go ahead and put this into further perspective, I know of an exploit that allows me to pull 5 CL70 pets at once, thats right 5 and no I will not post any specifics on how to do this as I have already submitted a /bug in game. Just to test this I pulled all 5 grouped them (which raised their effective CL to 80) I am a MCH/MBH/0400CM and I dueled a guildie to see how effective this was. You would think that 5 CL70 pets could kill a player by themselves but my guildie procedded to kill every sinlge one of my pets then he finished me off (and no im no noob at PvP either) so how would having 3 CL23s grouped be even remotely uber?
Quick questions - Was this before or after the changes to CL calculations for grouped pets? If it was after Pet specials were implemented, had you learned (And used) the new abilities? It makes a HUGE difference.
I too am a MCH/MBH - Only template difference is Cm4000 instead of your 0400. Dueling with just a CL 70 BE rancor + a CL 30 Probot (combat) droid, the people I duel with have a HARD time keeping up with the Abilities I have trained the Rancor with. Big difference? I can heal, my pets have high level Abilities, and the combo piles on both Energy and Kinetic attacks along with my own damage. I find the combo EXTREMELY useful and viable.
Ever stop to think that the Exploit of 5 CL 70s has a drawback?
The point is, IF we havea system that "mimics" our CL onto our pets, a well designed trio of BE pets being bumped to CL 80 will give an advantage to a well learned CH. It's not JUST the CL boost (Which negates any penalty the pets would have in fighting "up level") - It's the POTENTIAL of having many of the high level abilities on 3 CL 80 (mimicked) pets.
say what u want, but a wild cl65 rancore will kill a tamed cl65 rancor every time. for some reason tamed pets are weeker than their wild counterparts. i dont know about cl matching or anything else sugested above all i want is for a tamed pet to be an even match for its wild counterpart, before applying abilities as the abilities will drastically alter the outcome. once tamed and trained with abilities the pet will be much better than its wild counterpart WHICH IS HOW IT SHOULD BE.
Master CH
"To absent friends, Lost loves,
Old jedi, and the village in the mist,
and may each and every one of us
always give the emperor his due."
Solo Kills:
Gorax 1
It was shortly after pub 21, before I had learned many abilities. I'll test the exploit again tomorrow if i have time.
Applying marring storm 3 and frenzied assault 1 (this gives the greates damage bonus)to a CL23 BE pet with 312 max damage gives me a base DPS between my character + pets of roughly1153.5, keep in mind this is before armor and you must take into account that the pets all have 1.5K health, which would be fairly easy for any player to take out even if its CL80 mimicked. My guild leader can push the base DPS of his pistol to just over 1K using a speed powerup and it is impossible to incap his pistol (since its ADKed). So my DPS being that high is no where near out of line with other professions, in fact it still leaves me at a disadvantage because I lack the defense mods of other players adding to the fact that another player can effectively kill my weapons. And I am 4000CM as well, that was a typo earlier. I'll go back and correct it. Actually now that I think about it this was while I still had some SP tied up into the othe lines of scout and was before I picked up CM. (I have had about 2 hours of sleep in the last 48 hours)
Message Edited by Joker9125 on 10-31-2005 09:19 PM
Tiro-Os wrote:say what u want, but a wild cl65 rancore will kill a tamed cl65 rancor every time. for some reason tamed pets are weeker than their wild counterparts. i dont know about cl matching or anything else sugested above all i want is for a tamed pet to be an even match for its wild counterpart, before applying abilities as the abilities will drastically alter the outcome. once tamed and trained with abilities the pet will be much better than its wild counterpart WHICH IS HOW IT SHOULD BE.
Master CH
"To absent friends, Lost loves,
Old jedi, and the village in the mist,
and may each and every one of us
always give the emperor his due."
Solo Kills:
Gorax 1
I disagree, tamed pets, except for bracketed ones, are every bit as effective as their wild cousins now. I regularly send my pets up to fight wild ones of the same type, using my pets to tank and keep busy any extras that attack me. I also rarely carry pet stims so I rely on their innate abilities. I only have thick skin 1 and 3 so can only teach 1 and agro 1. I still have my pet survive far more often than the wild animal. It is partly the ability to apply key innate specials and to control the commanded specials in a smarter way than the AI but tamed pets can hold their own now, easily.
Now back to the original post. Joker I disagree on this is all we need, I also do not like how they borked mixed templates, and I do not plan to remove myself from the human race because a child wanted to sound smart and tough. Try logic instead of passion, it carries further in a discussion.
They already take and apply damage like a CL80 when you group them.....
So really the only thing that needs to be done is to make it so they don't take up group spaces, so we can actually group our pets without being solo.
LyteFoot wrote:
Now back to the original post. Joker I disagree on this is all we need, I also do not like how they borked mixed templates, and I do not plan to remove myself from the human race because a child wanted to sound smart and tough. Try logic instead of passion, it carries further in a discussion.
I'll agree that this isnt all we need, and I never said that to begin with, I also dont particuarly like how they borked crafters either but its a by produce of the level system and since that is what this game is based on we have to use it the developers are not going to back down on this so I am proposing a system that invalidates their claim that a lvl54 with a CL70 is too powerfull while giving us CL80s a boost in power as well, simply saying "I dont like that" and refusing to work with it and improve it is a really piss poor way to look at things. Ohh and I dont know what your definition of a child is, but Ive voted in the last 2 elections and you dont have to kill yourself to remove yourself from the gene pool, castration is a viable option. Lastly I used alot of logic to come to this conclusion, I know that in high end PvE and group PvP I am at a rather large disadvantage because my triplet teams are very innefective ungrouped and that most groups dont have 4 avaliable slolts just for me. If they implimented system we would have reason for them to allow CL54s to wear the master tamers necklace, because it would no be inbalancing for a CL54 to have a CL80 pet that took damage like it was CL54, actually I think that would go farther toward balancing the professioin to be in line with other hybrid templates.
Electro5 wrote:
They already take and apply damage like a CL80 when you group them.....
So really the only thing that needs to be done is to make it so they don't take up group spaces, so we can actually group our pets without being solo.
Or what he said, but from a codeing perspective I think this might be easier. I will be glad to explain why if you want me too, but its a rather long explination that goes into OOP.