Community Relations Archive
Thread: ARE SOE VIOLATING CONSUMER RIGHTS?
Page 1 of 2
Wonkster
Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:48 pm
#1
Taken from www.oft.gov.uk
Legelisation still current
When you buy a service - perhaps from a travel agent, garage, hairdresser or builder - you're entitled to certain standards:
* with reasonable care and skill - a job should be done to a proper standard of workmanship. If a plumber installs central heating it should not leak
* within a reasonable time - even if you haven't agreed to a definite completion date with the supplier of the service
* a reasonable charge - if no price has been fixed in advance. Always ask a trader how much a particular job will cost.
The law says that goods must be:
* of satisfactory quality – goods must meet the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking account of any description of the goods, the price and all other relevant circumstances. The quality of goods includes, for instance, their appearance and finish, their safety and their durability. Goods must be free from defects, even minor ones, except where these defects have been brought to your attention by the seller. Perhaps the goods are being sold as 'shop-soiled'
* fit for their purposes, including any particular purpose mentioned by you to the seller – for example, if you are buying a computer game and you explain you want one that can be played on a particular machine, the seller must not give you a game that cannot be played on that machine
* as described - on the package or a display sign, or by the seller. If you are told that a shirt is 100% cotton, then it should not turn out to be cotton and polyester
You don't have any real grounds for complaint if you:
* were told about the fault - errrr NO!
* examined the item when you bought it and should have seen the fault -NOPE
* did the damage yourself -NOPE
* made a mistake when buying the item -NOPE
* simply changed your mind -NOPE
Incidentlly,
It's a criminal offence for a trader to write or say something untrue about goods or (in some circumstances) services. For example, if a car is said to have only 20,000 miles on the clock or a dry cleaners offers a 24-hour service, these statements must be true.
This by far is the best extract:
No excuses
The law says it's up to the seller to deal with complaints about defective goods or other failures to comply with your statutory rights. Don't accept the excuse that 'it's the manufacturer's fault,' although you might also have additional rights against the manufacturer under a guarantee. See also 'things to watch out for' about exclusion clauses – the small print that tries to limit a trader's responsibilities under a contract.
Complaining about a service
Give the supplier a chance to put the matter right. If you're not satisfied put your complaint in writing, saying what you want done and set a deadline. If you're dealing with a large business address your letter to the customer services manager or company chairman/woman.
Consider withholding any further money until the problem has been sorted out, but check the small print of any contract you've signed.
Be careful about withholding payments if you have a credit agreement. If you stop paying, it could affect your credit rating and so your chances of getting credit in the future. Continuing to pay will not undermine any claim you have against the lender for any unsatisfactory service by a supplier. You might want to take advice on this.
While SOE may whine about the EULA, it is still subject to these standards (at least in UK), and they have agreed to abide by this simply by taking your money. EULAs really have no legal binding value, wheras the Trading Standards Act DOES. The argument could be put forward that SWG is a constanly changing game, but it is still precident that state and national laws must be abided in a trading companys area of sale.
This Post has been backed up in case of DEV deletion due to managment pressure or 'hush' tactics are applied
Quick read this post before SOE hush it!
If no response is forthcoming from a dev, then matters will be taken further, and a copy of both the EULA and a large file of the forum data will be forewarded to The Office of Fair Trading to see if a violation has taken place
I will be silent no longer. My voice will not be drowned out. SOE WILL listen
A black widow spider may be small but it can still kill a man.
Legelisation still current
When you buy a service - perhaps from a travel agent, garage, hairdresser or builder - you're entitled to certain standards:
* with reasonable care and skill - a job should be done to a proper standard of workmanship. If a plumber installs central heating it should not leak
* within a reasonable time - even if you haven't agreed to a definite completion date with the supplier of the service
* a reasonable charge - if no price has been fixed in advance. Always ask a trader how much a particular job will cost.
The law says that goods must be:
* of satisfactory quality – goods must meet the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking account of any description of the goods, the price and all other relevant circumstances. The quality of goods includes, for instance, their appearance and finish, their safety and their durability. Goods must be free from defects, even minor ones, except where these defects have been brought to your attention by the seller. Perhaps the goods are being sold as 'shop-soiled'
* fit for their purposes, including any particular purpose mentioned by you to the seller – for example, if you are buying a computer game and you explain you want one that can be played on a particular machine, the seller must not give you a game that cannot be played on that machine
* as described - on the package or a display sign, or by the seller. If you are told that a shirt is 100% cotton, then it should not turn out to be cotton and polyester
You don't have any real grounds for complaint if you:
* were told about the fault - errrr NO!
* examined the item when you bought it and should have seen the fault -NOPE
* did the damage yourself -NOPE
* made a mistake when buying the item -NOPE
* simply changed your mind -NOPE
Incidentlly,
It's a criminal offence for a trader to write or say something untrue about goods or (in some circumstances) services. For example, if a car is said to have only 20,000 miles on the clock or a dry cleaners offers a 24-hour service, these statements must be true.
This by far is the best extract:
No excuses
The law says it's up to the seller to deal with complaints about defective goods or other failures to comply with your statutory rights. Don't accept the excuse that 'it's the manufacturer's fault,' although you might also have additional rights against the manufacturer under a guarantee. See also 'things to watch out for' about exclusion clauses – the small print that tries to limit a trader's responsibilities under a contract.
Complaining about a service
Give the supplier a chance to put the matter right. If you're not satisfied put your complaint in writing, saying what you want done and set a deadline. If you're dealing with a large business address your letter to the customer services manager or company chairman/woman.
Consider withholding any further money until the problem has been sorted out, but check the small print of any contract you've signed.
Be careful about withholding payments if you have a credit agreement. If you stop paying, it could affect your credit rating and so your chances of getting credit in the future. Continuing to pay will not undermine any claim you have against the lender for any unsatisfactory service by a supplier. You might want to take advice on this.
While SOE may whine about the EULA, it is still subject to these standards (at least in UK), and they have agreed to abide by this simply by taking your money. EULAs really have no legal binding value, wheras the Trading Standards Act DOES. The argument could be put forward that SWG is a constanly changing game, but it is still precident that state and national laws must be abided in a trading companys area of sale.
This Post has been backed up in case of DEV deletion due to managment pressure or 'hush' tactics are applied
Quick read this post before SOE hush it!
If no response is forthcoming from a dev, then matters will be taken further, and a copy of both the EULA and a large file of the forum data will be forewarded to The Office of Fair Trading to see if a violation has taken place
I will be silent no longer. My voice will not be drowned out. SOE WILL listen
A black widow spider may be small but it can still kill a man.
Bravosix
Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:19 pm
#2
Great post!
I was giving them the benefit of the doubt until I found out it wasn't a bug, however I'm just waiting for the response as to what they're going to do first.
Obavi
Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:23 pm
#3
Great post.....I look at as SOE is griefing us....they are changing our gaming experience in a negative way and thus have broken the rules that they have set forth themselves.
Ivoh
Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:27 pm
#4
They say game experience may change during online play but with this xp nerf its just gonna stop and stay 
lol
lol
wildcat84
Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:17 am
#5
Consumer protection laws vary from state to state and country to country. Check with your government to see what may or may not apply to you.
Frankly, I think you have a better chance of affecting their policy by cancelling than calling an attorney general.
Frankly, I think you have a better chance of affecting their policy by cancelling than calling an attorney general.
FailedBySOE
Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:59 am
#6
Unfourtunatly this only covers the united kingdom.
We also have this wonderful Advertising Standards Agency who will, from 0900 tommorow have a complaint against SOE for breaching the advertising standards based on their advertisment of SWG and the "movie" on the homepage. (Breach of accuracy, misleading and downright innaccurate)
As for cancelling, well the mulder in me is thinking that is what they want.
SWG an empire divided - £19.99
SWG TTE - £19.99
SOE's Customer Service Priceless
SOE Raising Blood Pressure and Proud
We also have this wonderful Advertising Standards Agency who will, from 0900 tommorow have a complaint against SOE for breaching the advertising standards based on their advertisment of SWG and the "movie" on the homepage. (Breach of accuracy, misleading and downright innaccurate)
As for cancelling, well the mulder in me is thinking that is what they want.
SWG an empire divided - £19.99
SWG TTE - £19.99
SOE's Customer Service Priceless
SOE Raising Blood Pressure and Proud
Wonkster
Sat Aug 20, 2005 3:31 am
#7
part of the problem lies with the fact to see any changes which render your software inadequate for your play style and what you wish to play means you are FORCED to agree to the EULA. This renders the EULA not relevent to trading standards as you cannot judge the extent of problems without actually playing the game.
SOE EULA :
11. WE DO NOT ENSURE CONTINUOUS, ERROR-FREE, SECURE OR VIRUS-FREE OPERATION OF THE SOFTWARE, THE GAME, YOUR ACCOUNT OR CONTINUED OPERATION OR AVAILABILITY OF ANY GIVEN SERVER. FURTHER, WE CANNOT AND DO NOT PROMISE OR ENSURE THAT YOU WILL BE ABLE TO ACCESS YOUR ACCOUNT WHENEVER YOU WANT, AND THERE MAY BE EXTENDED PERIODS OF TIME WHEN YOU CANNOT ACCESS YOUR ACCOUNT. YOU ASSUME THE ENTIRE RISK AS TO THE RESULTS AND PERFORMANCE OF THE SOFTWARE AND THE GAME IN CONNECTION WITH YOUR HARDWARE, AND YOU ASSUME THE ENTIRE COST OF ALL SERVICING, REPAIR AND/OR CORRECTION OF YOUR HARDWARE. WE ARE NOT LIABLE FOR ANY DELAY OR FAILURE TO PERFORM RESULTING FROM ANY CAUSES BEYOND OUR REASONABLE CONTROL.
but surley you are legally bound to at least try? So SOE are saying that the game may break, and when it does not work then it is nothing to do with them.
SOE are passing the buck. By stating articles like this, they are effectivly saying that they can dramatically change YOUR software, which you have PURCHASED off them and continue to do so at their whim?
12. IN NO EVENT SHALL SOE, ITS LICENSORS, THEIR PARENTS OR AFFILIATES, OFFICERS, DIRECTORS, EMPLOYEES AND AGENTS BE LIABLE TO YOU OR TO ANY THIRD PARTY FOR ANY LOST PROFITS OR SPECIAL, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (HOWEVER ARISING, INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE) ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH YOUR ACCOUNT, THE SOFTWARE, THE GAME OR THIS AGREEMENT INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, DAMAGE TO PROPERTY AND – TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW – DAMAGES FOR PERSONAL INJURY, EVEN IF SOE, ITS LICENSORS OR THEIR PARENTS OR AFFILIATES, OFFICERS, DIRECTORS, EMPLOYEES AND AGENTS HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES OR LOSS. THE LIABILITY OF SOE, ITS LICENSORS OR ANY OF THEIR PARENT OR AFFILIATED COMPANIES TO YOU OR ANY THIRD PARTIES IS LIMITED TO $100. YOU AGREE TO WAIVE ANY RIGHT TO EQUITABLE RELIEF INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, INJUNCTIVE RELIEF AGAINST SOE, ITS LICENSORS, THEIR PARENTS OR AFFILIATES, OFFICERS, DIRECTORS, EMPLOYEES AND AGENTS TO ENFORCE THE TERMS HEREOF; HOWEVER, THE FOREGOING SHALL NOT PRECLUDE SOE AND/OR ITS LICENSORS FROM SEEKING ANY INJUNCTIVE RELIEF. SOME STATES DO NOT ALLOW THE FOREGOING LIMITATIONS OF LIABILITY, SO THEY MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU.
So with this, soe are saying that they are immune to the legal state of neglagence? That the law in all companys is exempt from them?
Again because of the content contained in the EULA, SOE are telling you that to play their game you have to surrender all Statuory (note) rights and even human rights to enjoy software that YOU have paid for? Trading companies, even those that provide a service, are still subject to national laws relating to the country that they trade in.
Because of this, you can choose to ignore every article in this 'agreement'
An instance of this being in effect was when a copy of the game i bought for a second acount had its serial no. hijacked (probably a keygen)
SOE's stance on this was (and im quoting) 'SOE do not support hand codes' (bwearing in miind i had proof of purchase)
So, i quoted that they must, while again saying that under english law, they HAD to assist me in either getting a replacement code or refunding me.
I quoted the standing law in my country and guess what? Within a few hours I received my email saying that they would assist me in any way they could.
Im sure SOE are aware of the legal issues with their joke of a license agreement which they quote quite reguraly but ignore them and do your own research on your laws. SOE are fragrently breaking laws with the hope that most of us will scared
Im not.
SOE EULA :
11. WE DO NOT ENSURE CONTINUOUS, ERROR-FREE, SECURE OR VIRUS-FREE OPERATION OF THE SOFTWARE, THE GAME, YOUR ACCOUNT OR CONTINUED OPERATION OR AVAILABILITY OF ANY GIVEN SERVER. FURTHER, WE CANNOT AND DO NOT PROMISE OR ENSURE THAT YOU WILL BE ABLE TO ACCESS YOUR ACCOUNT WHENEVER YOU WANT, AND THERE MAY BE EXTENDED PERIODS OF TIME WHEN YOU CANNOT ACCESS YOUR ACCOUNT. YOU ASSUME THE ENTIRE RISK AS TO THE RESULTS AND PERFORMANCE OF THE SOFTWARE AND THE GAME IN CONNECTION WITH YOUR HARDWARE, AND YOU ASSUME THE ENTIRE COST OF ALL SERVICING, REPAIR AND/OR CORRECTION OF YOUR HARDWARE. WE ARE NOT LIABLE FOR ANY DELAY OR FAILURE TO PERFORM RESULTING FROM ANY CAUSES BEYOND OUR REASONABLE CONTROL.
but surley you are legally bound to at least try? So SOE are saying that the game may break, and when it does not work then it is nothing to do with them.
SOE are passing the buck. By stating articles like this, they are effectivly saying that they can dramatically change YOUR software, which you have PURCHASED off them and continue to do so at their whim?
12. IN NO EVENT SHALL SOE, ITS LICENSORS, THEIR PARENTS OR AFFILIATES, OFFICERS, DIRECTORS, EMPLOYEES AND AGENTS BE LIABLE TO YOU OR TO ANY THIRD PARTY FOR ANY LOST PROFITS OR SPECIAL, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (HOWEVER ARISING, INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE) ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH YOUR ACCOUNT, THE SOFTWARE, THE GAME OR THIS AGREEMENT INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, DAMAGE TO PROPERTY AND – TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW – DAMAGES FOR PERSONAL INJURY, EVEN IF SOE, ITS LICENSORS OR THEIR PARENTS OR AFFILIATES, OFFICERS, DIRECTORS, EMPLOYEES AND AGENTS HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES OR LOSS. THE LIABILITY OF SOE, ITS LICENSORS OR ANY OF THEIR PARENT OR AFFILIATED COMPANIES TO YOU OR ANY THIRD PARTIES IS LIMITED TO $100. YOU AGREE TO WAIVE ANY RIGHT TO EQUITABLE RELIEF INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, INJUNCTIVE RELIEF AGAINST SOE, ITS LICENSORS, THEIR PARENTS OR AFFILIATES, OFFICERS, DIRECTORS, EMPLOYEES AND AGENTS TO ENFORCE THE TERMS HEREOF; HOWEVER, THE FOREGOING SHALL NOT PRECLUDE SOE AND/OR ITS LICENSORS FROM SEEKING ANY INJUNCTIVE RELIEF. SOME STATES DO NOT ALLOW THE FOREGOING LIMITATIONS OF LIABILITY, SO THEY MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU.
So with this, soe are saying that they are immune to the legal state of neglagence? That the law in all companys is exempt from them?
Again because of the content contained in the EULA, SOE are telling you that to play their game you have to surrender all Statuory (note) rights and even human rights to enjoy software that YOU have paid for? Trading companies, even those that provide a service, are still subject to national laws relating to the country that they trade in.
Because of this, you can choose to ignore every article in this 'agreement'
An instance of this being in effect was when a copy of the game i bought for a second acount had its serial no. hijacked (probably a keygen)
SOE's stance on this was (and im quoting) 'SOE do not support hand codes' (bwearing in miind i had proof of purchase)
So, i quoted that they must, while again saying that under english law, they HAD to assist me in either getting a replacement code or refunding me.
I quoted the standing law in my country and guess what? Within a few hours I received my email saying that they would assist me in any way they could.
Im sure SOE are aware of the legal issues with their joke of a license agreement which they quote quite reguraly but ignore them and do your own research on your laws. SOE are fragrently breaking laws with the hope that most of us will scared
Im not.
Unika
Sat Aug 20, 2005 7:43 am
#8
Basically the EULA as far as I can understand it, and according to a lawyer friend of ours, is written to US contract law. It is effective and binding in some parts but not others.. until after the CU. Because the game is sold with the original instruction booklet, and no replacement or refund was offered when that book became obsolete, then this game is no longer the game we purchased.
If you started this game prior to the CU, you do have legal right to request your money back as the game is not what you paid for and was misrepresented on the package. Also they have a contract with us to maintain this game they sold us. Guess what... anyway, the chance of someone taking this up outside of class action is all the protection that SOE needs. The individual case awards are so small noone thinks it worthwhile.
If you started this game prior to the CU, you do have legal right to request your money back as the game is not what you paid for and was misrepresented on the package. Also they have a contract with us to maintain this game they sold us. Guess what... anyway, the chance of someone taking this up outside of class action is all the protection that SOE needs. The individual case awards are so small noone thinks it worthwhile.
XanKrieger
Sat Aug 20, 2005 11:13 am
#9
I'm not all too good at Law when it comes to SOE cause they still justify Treason in game
CAN i report em to UK trading standards is my question?
lol JOKE, (shifty eyes)
RWC
Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:06 pm
#10
I will start by saying that I am NOT here to support or defend SOE and that I have nothing against people attempting legal action, I should also say that I have studied UK, US and EU contract law so Im not just some random person adding my opinion.
With this being an online game you never own the software, all software related to this game remains the property of SOE and what you pay for is access to the software and SOEs hardware (the game servers)
No part of the EULA directly says that
Assuming that you are correct, you now cannot agree to the EULA. An important part of a contract is "Consideration" meaning both parties put something into it, in this case SOE allow you to play their game and you agree to both pay for it and follow their rules/agreement. If you agree to this and have no intention to follow the agreement for whatever reason then you are breaching it aswell.
Actually that isnt true, the box and the EULA have always said that game experience may change during online play and the game was acurratley represented on the package when you bought, the fact that the game has changed now makes no difference since you agree that it may change at any time.
I dont really understand what you mean by that, there is no specific contract that claims they will maintain the game.
I do not think it is worth the time trying to find a hole in the legal documents here since SOE have a large legal team and they are very well protected by the EULA.
If any of you are serious about taking legal action then I sugggest you first consult relevant government agencies in your country and do not play the game until then.
Wonkster wrote:
By stating articles like this, they are effectivly saying that they can dramatically change YOUR software, which you have PURCHASED off them and continue to do so at their whim?
With this being an online game you never own the software, all software related to this game remains the property of SOE and what you pay for is access to the software and SOEs hardware (the game servers)
Wonkster wrote:
So with this, soe are saying that they are immune to the legal state of neglagence? That the law in all companys is exempt from them?
No part of the EULA directly says that
Wonkster wrote:
Because of this, you can choose to ignore every article in this 'agreement'
Assuming that you are correct, you now cannot agree to the EULA. An important part of a contract is "Consideration" meaning both parties put something into it, in this case SOE allow you to play their game and you agree to both pay for it and follow their rules/agreement. If you agree to this and have no intention to follow the agreement for whatever reason then you are breaching it aswell.
Unika wrote:
If you started this game prior to the CU, you do have legal right to request your money back as the game is not what you paid for and was misrepresented on the package.
Actually that isnt true, the box and the EULA have always said that game experience may change during online play and the game was acurratley represented on the package when you bought, the fact that the game has changed now makes no difference since you agree that it may change at any time.
Unika wrote:
Also they have a contract with us to maintain this game they sold us.
I dont really understand what you mean by that, there is no specific contract that claims they will maintain the game.
I do not think it is worth the time trying to find a hole in the legal documents here since SOE have a large legal team and they are very well protected by the EULA.
If any of you are serious about taking legal action then I sugggest you first consult relevant government agencies in your country and do not play the game until then.
RichardBryant
Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:32 pm
#11
However.
This thread shows clear breaches of contract (as in the form of written commitment) committed over the span of 2 years against the Smuggler community.
This thread shows clear breaches of contract (as in the form of written commitment) committed over the span of 2 years against the Smuggler community.
Unika
Sat Aug 20, 2005 8:59 pm
#12
Actually they are required to keep the game mechanics the same. The software is ours.. at least the parts on the discs. We have what is called Right Of Use in the US. This stems from the betamax case. However like I said the EULA may or may not be binding in certain parts, and certainly not as a whole, but the act of enforcement.. well a snowball has a better chance in...
Frankly if I can not pick up the manual I got with the game and learn to play. I want at least a new user guide for my product. They have that responsibility to the customer base to maintain elements of the game. When the holocron in game tells you the wrong info.. well shows a lack of interest.
The EULA is a contract, but state and federal trade laws outweigh contracts. If I have a labor contract and I have a clause that says you must work 80 hours a week to pass a probationary period of employment, it would not stand in court. If you say We reserve the right to change content as neccessary to maintain gameplay, it doesn't mean we totally rework the game from what you bought.
Great in premise is the law, enforcable it is not. SOE won they have, due to lack of interest (profit) to legal professionals.
So as this is great topic for discussion, and even if they are in the wrong, chances of winnign a case against them are next to none. Chances of getting that same case to court.. well see my first paragraph.
Frankly if I can not pick up the manual I got with the game and learn to play. I want at least a new user guide for my product. They have that responsibility to the customer base to maintain elements of the game. When the holocron in game tells you the wrong info.. well shows a lack of interest.
The EULA is a contract, but state and federal trade laws outweigh contracts. If I have a labor contract and I have a clause that says you must work 80 hours a week to pass a probationary period of employment, it would not stand in court. If you say We reserve the right to change content as neccessary to maintain gameplay, it doesn't mean we totally rework the game from what you bought.
Great in premise is the law, enforcable it is not. SOE won they have, due to lack of interest (profit) to legal professionals.
So as this is great topic for discussion, and even if they are in the wrong, chances of winnign a case against them are next to none. Chances of getting that same case to court.. well see my first paragraph.
RWC
Sun Aug 21, 2005 4:34 am
#13
Unika wrote:
Actually they are required to keep the game mechanics the same.
What law actually says that?
Unika wrote:
but the act of enforcement.. well a snowball has a better chance in...
All they have to do for enforcement is ban you from the game.
Unika wrote:
Frankly if I can not pick up the manual I got with the game and learn to play. I want at least a new user guide for my product.
I agree with that totally but they dont really have to give us anything since the game has a tutorial and plenty of ingame help..
Unika wrote:
The EULA is a contract, but state and federal trade laws outweigh contracts. If I have a labor contract and I have a clause that says you must work 80 hours a week to pass a probationary period of employment, it would not stand in court. If you say We reserve the right to change content as neccessary to maintain gameplay, it doesn't mean we totally rework the game from what you bought.
An 80hour per week contract wouldnt stand in court because there are specific laws that you cannot work that much. Basically the EULA says that you agree to allow them to change the game in anyway that they want and there is no specific law that says they cant.
Its nice to get a mature discussion going on these forums :-)
Message Edited by RWC on 08-21-2005 12:51 PM
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