Community Relations Archive

Very well said Leilani. I started shortly after launch, and the game right now is in the buggiest state I've ever seen it. Please, SOE, make your first priority fixing bugs (and preventing new ones from being added), this really is the number one problem right now.

From Tiggs' Team Comments page:

"I have to say that the one thing that will always remain the same with any game is the passion that the community has. I have spent the last few days reading over all of the Star Wars Galaxy forums and that passion shines through. *psst... I hear you!!* You, like the previous communities I have dealt with, want to be heard or acknowledged so at least you know you are not posting in vain. I will try my best to acknowledge your posts even if it is a simple post that says "Great Idea" or "I will pass this on to the team". I am very laid back and it takes a lot to make me "pounce". All I ask is be constructive in your posts, agree to disagree and remember there is a human with feelings that wrote that post you are replying to and we will get along fine!"

I would love if that was something that happened a little more often. I see a lot of imaginative, constructive posts and would really enjoy knowing that they were things the developers had their eyes on.

/agree

I'm thankful I'm not in Tiggs, TH's or the Developers positions. It's quite obvious that they have heart for this game and want the best for it and its customers, but some other 'force' is making this extremely difficult. It would be nice to be able to get in contact with this person of 'force' whom appears to not read the forums and involve himself/herself with the players well-tested and well-justified concerns. Most peoplewould much rather see all of the game breaking, and most of the even trivial bugs fixed before more content was pushed that brought on more bugs than were fixed.... although the latter seems to be the trend lately.

Unfortunately the version control demigodappears to be making the former impossible on the developers by setting timelines that not only generate more bugs than content and fixes, but also requires minimizing the complexityof new content which ultimately minimizes the fun factor of the new content as well (i.e. slicing).

Personally, I'm very big on customer satisfaction and I work for a small enough company that this becomes our primary and often only goal when performing updates to applications or working with customers to deploy a new version or application itself. If the boss were to tell me that I had to push something out that had as many bugs (even less significant than the profession-breaking bugs often deployed in this game. i.e. Creature Handler) as we see here (although he never would), i'd tell him it's not happening. I would rather lose or leave a job than dishonor my integrity. Call me a fool if you will, but honor doesn't mean much to many people these days, yet it's a building block of our entire history.

Something..... has to change.

Message Edited by XrioT on 06-30-2005 07:29 AM

This is very distressing. I have been out of the game for a couple of weeks, during which I've moved and upgraded my computer. But I'd been growing more an more worried about how far past the asked-for 30 days we had moved without any progress being made on critical, game-breaking issues for many professions. Now, to hear that they've actually been made singificantly WORSE with this patch despite the problems and concerns being clearly indetified on TC has me feeling quite unenthusiastic about returning. As it is, I am definitely cancelling one subscription. The other... I'll have to think about it.

Bionic, I do have some experience with programming and software project management. To you, and to the others here, let me offer an alternative point of view.

Without slighting anyone, Creature Handlers probably got hammered the worst in Publish 19. Their entire reason for being -- creatures! -- were all set to level 1(0) with 10 health points. Many CHs' pets died. Can anyone imagine any direct combat profession losing all its functionality like this?

The CHs will be getting a hotfix, but the question remains: how could thisproblem havebeen allowed to go Liveat all, given that it was well-documented in Test Center?

Consider the developer response:

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JFreeman wrote:

We had another last-minute-bugfix which so similar to this, that there was some confusion that led to our thinking that fixing that bug resolved this issue.

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First of all, if you make a mistake, admit it. JFreeman did that promptly, and he and SOE deserve some credit for doing so.

Second, as for the question of how this happened, look what he said: apparently there were two very similar change requests. It was not a matter of "we just ignored the problem" -- it was a matter of confusion over which problem had been fixed.

This tells us several things.

1. They do have some system for tracking changes. That's a good thing; it's one important sign of a professional softwaredevelopment process.

2. The system allows very similar descriptions of changes (creating the potential for confusion).

3. The code wasn't tested again after the change ticket was closed as done. (If it had been, they'd have noticed that the problem hadn't actually been fixed despite the status of the ticket.)

4. The overall process for making changes allows "last-minute-bugfix" changes.

It's this item #4 that, from my perspective, is the real culprit here. As someone responsible for scheduling and tracking changes to a production system, I know all too well the pressure that users can applyto get"just one last fix" before turning a release over to production. But that experience also tells me that it is risky to give in to such requests becauseit significantly increases the odds that you're going to foul up.

And when that happens, all you've done is make your customers even less happy than they'd have been if they hadn't gotten some desirable new feature.

This ought to be tattooed on the head of every person responsible for managing a software development process: It Is Better To Ship Late Than To Ship Bugs.

Customersmay forgive you for something that's late... as long as it works. But they won't forgive (and certainly will never forget!)if yourepeatedly give them a product that they can't use and/or can't trust.

I appreciate the position that SOE's producers are in when it comes to pressure to ship changes. And honestly, I'm fairly amazed at the sheer number of correct changes they turn over in a publish on a regular basis. (You know -- the ones we don't think about because we're so upset at the problems.)

But in the end someone responsible for the process has to stand up and say, "No, we cannot and will notinclude that change in this publishbecausethe code cutoff for changes has already passed. We'll include it in the next release if it has been fully tested at that time."

When the lead can say that and make it stick, quality will improve.

--Flatfingers

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Flatfingers wrote:

Bionic, I do have some experience with programming and software project management. To you, and to the others here, let me offer an alternative point of view.

Without slighting anyone, Creature Handlers probably got hammered the worst in Publish 19. Their entire reason for being -- creatures! -- were all set to level 1(0) with 10 health points. Many CHs' pets died. Can anyone imagine any direct combat profession losing all its functionality like this?

The CHs will be getting a hotfix, but the question remains: how could this problem have been allowed to go Live at all, given that it was well-documented in Test Center?

Consider the developer response:

---

JFreeman wrote:

We had another last-minute-bugfix which so similar to this, that there was some confusion that led to our thinking that fixing that bug resolved this issue.

---

First of all, if you make a mistake, admit it. JFreeman did that promptly, and he and SOE deserve some credit for doing so.

Second, as for the question of how this happened, look what he said: apparently there were two very similar change requests. It was not a matter of "we just ignored the problem" -- it was a matter of confusion over which problem had been fixed.

This tells us several things.

1. They do have some system for tracking changes. That's a good thing; it's one important sign of a professional software development process.

2. The system allows very similar descriptions of changes (creating the potential for confusion).

3. The code wasn't tested again after the change ticket was closed as done. (If it had been, they'd have noticed that the problem hadn't actually been fixed despite the status of the ticket.)

4. The overall process for making changes allows "last-minute-bugfix" changes.

It's this item #4 that, from my perspective, is the real culprit here. As someone responsible for scheduling and tracking changes to a production system, I know all too well the pressure that users can apply to get "just one last fix" before turning a release over to production. But that experience also tells me that it is risky to give in to such requests because it significantly increases the odds that you're going to foul up.

And when that happens, all you've done is make your customers even less happy than they'd have been if they hadn't gotten some desirable new feature.

This ought to be tattooed on the head of every person responsible for managing a software development process: It Is Better To Ship Late Than To Ship Bugs.

Customers may forgive you for something that's late... as long as it works. But they won't forgive (and certainly will never forget!) if you repeatedly give them a product that they can't use and/or can't trust.

I appreciate the position that SOE's producers are in when it comes to pressure to ship changes. And honestly, I'm fairly amazed at the sheer number of correct changes they turn over in a publish on a regular basis. (You know -- the ones we don't think about because we're so upset at the problems.)

But in the end someone responsible for the process has to stand up and say, "No, we cannot and will not include that change in this publish because the code cutoff for changes has already passed. We'll include it in the next release if it has been fully tested at that time."

When the lead can say that and make it stick, quality will improve.

--Flatfingers

---

Thank you very much for posting this, it is a detailed look at something I honestly had no knowledge of. I agree with you about the problem being inherent in a system that allows for last minute bug fixes as SWG obviously has, but I also can not stress enough alongside you that such last minute fixes must be tested and implemented properly to be worth anything at all.

I too agree 100% with the sentiments so eloquently expressed by Leilani in this thread. Those who have read my posts in the past know that I am always attempting to be constructive, polite, and logical when addressing game issues. I have done this in the hopes that my feedback might be noticed by the Developers who are surely swamped with ranting, flame-filled threads. It has been my hope that by calmly addressing the issues which affect me (and those I play with) that I would also be providing a bit of encouragement to the Development team...i.e. that not everyone is filled with anger or hatred for the Devs.

It is truly unfortunate that we find ourselves in a position where "we know it is broken but we're giving it to you anyway" has become the norm. I have seen countless posts from members of the SOE team, as well as Correspondents, encouraging us all to join a Test Center and rigorously test the patches, publishes, and fixes before they go Live. Personally, I no longer have any interest in playing on a Test Center or joining a Beta for SWG...it has become clear to me that meeting deadlines is far more important than using the testing feedback to correct issues.

What is really unfortunate is that I see red names appearing in "fun-time" threads quite often. We all like to take breaks from our work (where do you think I am posting this from?) but when I see TH, Tiggs, or the rest participating in threads regarding song lyrics or movie quotes, I am a little put off. When a red name DOES appear in a thread regarding game issues, there is ususally very little if any real feedback. We ALL understand that the development process is fluid, but using that as an excuse not to communicate what is going on has become a tired old song. The reason so many people hold you to your statements and accuse you of lying is ultimately due to the situation you have created.

As an example: The Smuggler Concept notes regarding the new slicing mini-game came out several months ago. The Smuggler community was very excited...then silence from SOE. Months went by without a peep. Sudddenly, the new slicing system appears on TC and it is absolutely nothing like what was proposed to our community! Had there been some dialogue with the Smuggler Community (either through our awesome Correspondent Wes or an actual Dev), the community would have felt that you were attempting to be attentive and responsive to our needs and requests. You have had months to let us know that the mini-game was not viable and that you were considering alternate solutions. Instead, you keep the community in the dark, letting us believe we were getting the mini-game, until BOOM! TC comes online with an unrecognizeable andvery unappealing slicing revamp. You still haven't even told us that the mini-game couldn't be done, just that is was not being done! It should then come as no surprise that players feel they are being mislead, mistreated, or lied to by SOE...in this case you strung the Smugglers along for MONTHS, leading us to believe you were doing one thing when you actually did something very different.

I am sorry if this appears to be a rant, but I feel it is VERY important to support the sentiments Leilani expressed here. I used the Slicing Revamp example because my character is a Master Smuggler and I am most familiar with that profession's issues; but I am certain that this example is representative of the situation which faces ALL players.

I am not one to bluster and threaten to leave, but I am beginning to have serious doubts that this game will continue to entertain me if SOE stays on the path they are currently on. Between the amount of documented bugs making it out of TC and the apparent disinterest inboth repairing exisiting content and giving us actual new player contentto use instead of moreloot (and loot-based requirements) and double XP I am finding the game system itself to be less and less apealing. I know that the loss of my one subscription will not harm SOE as a whole, so please do not think I am trying todraw a line in the sand with you. In expressing my displeasure and frustration, I am not trying to deliver some impassioned (or immature) ultimatum. I am writing this because I really want to continue playing and enjoying this game and because I do NOT want to leave. For my own selfish sake, I hope that SOE is able to regroup and rededicate their efforts so that I will be able to continue logging on and enjoying the game I have been playing for almost 2 years. I realize (and I hope everyone else does too) that if the game is no longer enjoyable for me and I decide to leave, the loss will be felt by me far more than it will be felt by SOE. I really would like to avoid that situation...

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Bionic wrote:

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X_Wedge_X wrote:
I vote for a two month rollback! I'd gladly give up the last two months of changes for getting the old system back.

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Aside from being functionally impossible (do you think they really make and keep server backups from/for that long?), the devs have said it won't happen, and honestly it wouldn't fix the issues this thread is about:

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X_Wedge_X wrote:

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Bionic wrote:

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X_Wedge_X wrote:
I vote for a two month rollback! I'd gladly give up the last two months of changes for getting the old system back.

---

Aside from being functionally impossible (do you think they really make and keep server backups from/for that long?), the devs have said it won't happen, and honestly it wouldn't fix the issues this thread is about:

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Any company like this has a backup of every single publish before and after. They most definatly have a saved state of the game from right before the CU, hell I'm willing to bet they have abackup ofthe first week still (not including characters, items, houses ect, just the code of that version of the game) I know it wont happen but I can wish right?

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ok think about it, you want a rollback, so why not, let me explain to you what it means :

you have to roll back EVERYTHING in the game as each part of code or database info are linked one to the other.

Rollbak on :

• => inventory all items looted crafted destroyed during 2 months would be rolled back


• =>structures : all cities, players house, decorations, furnitures will be brought back to 2 months ago


• => XP your char would come back to the state it was 2 months ago


• =>bugs yes BUGS : all corrected bugs would be now live again

Why do I sometimes get the feeling that Smedley and the rest sit in their offices and LAUGH at us? It's now been more than 2 months since the CU, and there has been little improvement in the quality of what gets pushed live.

WHY are patches with huge known issues on TC being pushed live? There is no excuse for that. In every QA department I've worked for (IBM amongst others) TRIVIAL bugs would stop a release, or get the bosses to call in everyone they needed to CRUSH it before the deadline. I see no such commitment or standard with SWG.

As for balance, Pub 19 is a complete and utter joke. How is it balanced that a Jedi, who spent as much XP in one LINE of healer (consider also that Jedi XP is granted at about 1/5th the rate of normal xp) as a master doctor or CM costs, gets outhealed 2-1 by someone who only gets doctor 4xxx or CM 4xxx? My Doc 4xxx can heal for more than 1.9K damage every SIX seconds! It's not right, and it's a kick to the teeth to all those vet players who spent months, and in some cases YEARS to get there... My guess is some genius thought it a "cool" idea to fatally weaken low-mid temp Jedi so as to add content to "Empire Day" (ie cause lots of us to die over and over).

I'm sorry to be negative guys, but to put it plainly in Kentuckian, "you ain't gettin the job done".

Do better.

Now that the movie hype and noob flood is waning, you guys better start doing something to keep the base intact.

Remember, this is a game with a sub cost. You have to sell EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US this game every single month. I've yet to see any kind of concerted effort to market this game and it's future to the existing base.

Part of that is going to require blunt honesty about what you are doing and what you are going to be doing. It's going to require that you start making some commitments, and STICKING TO THEM. The Dev team has a serious credibility problem right now, and repairing that image should be your top priority. Making posts and posters disappear won't solve that problem, RESULTS will.

Message Edited by wildcat84 on 07-01-2005 10:31 AM

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Arnwald wrote:

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X_Wedge_X wrote:

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Bionic wrote:

---

X_Wedge_X wrote:
I vote for a two month rollback! I'd gladly give up the last two months of changes for getting the old system back.

---

Aside from being functionally impossible (do you think they really make and keep server backups from/for that long?), the devs have said it won't happen, and honestly it wouldn't fix the issues this thread is about:

---

Any company like this has a backup of every single publish before and after. They most definatly have a saved state of the game from right before the CU, hell I'm willing to bet they have abackup ofthe first week still (not including characters, items, houses ect, just the code of that version of the game) I know it wont happen but I can wish right?

---

ok think about it, you want a rollback, so why not, let me explain to you what it means :

you have to roll back EVERYTHING in the game as each part of code or database info are linked one to the other.

Rollbak on :

• => inventory all items looted crafted destroyed during 2 months would be rolled back


• =>structures : all cities, players house, decorations, furnitures will be brought back to 2 months ago


• => XP your char would come back to the state it was 2 months ago


• =>bugs yes BUGS : all corrected bugs would be now live again

It your idea goes liveI will just /faint

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