CUEmu - Thread Posts

Zarkonan

Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:26 am

TH was right in that he said there is a lot of ranting going on here- negative energy.

Look. I'm a master commando and have been a commando since the first month, and have been reading these boards religiously ever since- a silent observer for the most part. We went from being crap to superior to crap to superior- and now we're stuck in crap again. These things are cyclical. It will get better- at the combat revamp.

I applaud the vocal commandos out there fighting to fix what is in fact a broken profession. But the fact is, the tone is impatient and fed-up and whiny. Garvin- you are a wonderful advocate of our profession- not since Ivoni have we had one so good- but your tone as of late has, as TH said, been more complaint oriented than constructive. I urge you to rethink your strategy. We need you, but we need you as a passionate advocate, not a whiner.

Many of you other vocal commandos have taken to bashing TH and the devs. You are fools. I understand your frustration, but let me make this clear- your ranting in these forums makes the situation worse. Deal with that fact and I believe you will see progress with TH.

Until then, I wouldn't post in this forum either if i were him.

Anyway, just one Master's opinion.

Draxas Draavat, Master Heavy Swordsman, Blademaster, MBrawler
Order of the Silverflame
Starsider

Zedar Xang, Master Commando, Master TKA
Bloodfin

Lemat999

Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:38 am

#2

So, how much are they paying you?

Oculi Orbicularis
Goon Squad

DeusManus

Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:00 am

#3

yeah, seriously, if youve been a master for so long, you know better than anyone else the problems with this profesion. Garvin and others here that wish the profession to get fixed, well, what can you expect? the devs have more or less blown us off since launch. how can you expect people to remain "positive" if you simply ignore them for so long? but dont think we have just been ignored. no no no, only pikemen are that lucky. we are beaten, bludgened yet, with the nerf bat. now, only the quivering remains of a profession with so much possiblity is left. we have been givin no hope, save that we look toward this semi-mythical "combat balance". please, dont kid yourself. this combat balance SHOULD have happend during beta. now im paying 15 monthly to beta test this game. and you expect me to be positive? nope, not gonna happen.

Morauz

glixz

Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:53 am

#4

This is my 1st post if you cant tell but, i do look over the boards at lestonce a week.

Zarkonan, it is really hard to be positive when there isnt much to be positive about. It gets wrose when TH will visit the DE msg board weekly if not more offen and wont even pop his head in here once a month. Other then JustG we havent had a derv come to our board in how long? When they do come they only say wait and see it'll get better. We are paying for a service here. We have a right to complain. I agree that we should try to stay positive and that it would probably help our cus more. All the commandos want is to be herd. As of right now we do not think we are being herd.

Groz Warr

Peleas

Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:08 am

#5

Wow, I wish I could just blow my job off if my customers developed an attitude by virtue of my complete and utter incompetence.

JohboBocal

Sun Feb 22, 2004 12:27 pm

#6

Zarkonan wrote:

TH was right in that he said there is a lot of ranting going on here- negative energy.

Look. I'm a master commando and have been a commando since the first month, and have been reading these boards religiously ever since- a silent observer for the most part. We went from being crap to superior to crap to superior- and now we're stuck in crap again. These things are cyclical. It will get better- at the combat revamp.

I applaud the vocal commandos out there fighting to fix what is in fact a broken profession. But the fact is, the tone is impatient and fed-up and whiny. Garvin- you are a wonderful advocate of our profession- not since Ivoni have we had one so good- but your tone as of late has, as TH said, been more complaint oriented than constructive. I urge you to rethink your strategy. We need you, but we need you as a passionate advocate, not a whiner.

Many of you other vocal commandos have taken to bashing TH and the devs. You are fools. I understand your frustration, but let me make this clear- your ranting in these forums makes the situation worse. Deal with that fact and I believe you will see progress with TH.

Until then, I wouldn't post in this forum either if i were him.

Anyway, just one Master's opinion.

So its ok for you to whine about whiners, but in your opinion people that have paid money to play a profession and game that is broken is not the correct thing to do, nor logical.

I must have learned a different logic.

Maybe some have forgoten that we are customers, and we are PAYING to play this game, it not free.

I beleive commandos have the right and obligation to stand up for their profession. Garvin is right in his observations, like it or not.

And according to these forums you started playing in Mid September, which would make it impossible for you to have been playing a commando since the first month.

The Commando profession is broke. This is not a negative statement, and not a whine, THIS IS A FACT. And anyone using the argument that other professions are more broke and we need to stop whining is off his rocker.

Commandos are stating the fact that their profession is broke and needs fixing. We are worried about our profession and see fit to make comments in this, the commado, forum. We do not negate the FACT that other professions need FIXING also, but we are commandos, in the commando forum, talking about commando stuff. If you think that a pikeman needs fixing, great, then go to the pikeman forum and discuss it there. In this forum I care about commando issues. I can go to other forums to discuss other issues.

Pretty soon it will be March and 3 months from then we will have been playing this game for 1 year. And yet, our beloved profession only has ONE decent weapon (or had), and that weapon is constantly nerf'd.

These are not negative comments, these are facts:

1.The fact is the only non consumable weapon with its own specials, that works,is the Flamethrower. If this is NOT true, then tell me what other one's we have. Add to that that our DOT now is a joke.

2. Consumable weapons are difficult and expensive to make, and therefore not worth the time and effort for many weraponsmiths to make.

4. The HAR pretty much is useless.

5. Grenades are pretty useless with their current rules.

6. Our mitigation rules are a bit off, imo.

7. We are constantly nerf'd, but get very little love.

8 add your own.

There are more issues, but these came to my head at this moment. I am sure Garvin, maddogs, our correspondent, and MANY others can better explain the situation. So please be honest.

Anyway, If there is any whining, I apologise, I will try to be more Positive.

But stating facts is not whining, so please stop whining about people whining.

Message Edited by JohboBocal on 02-22-2004 11:32 AM

Jobo & Jobi

Vendor located at -2483 -5643
Mos Nova, Tatooine

DeusManus

Sun Feb 22, 2004 12:37 pm

#7

^^^ owned. just **edit**ing owned. everyone can **edit** now, cause everyone just gotowned.

Message Edited by DeusManus on 02-22-2004 11:38 AM

Morauz

Zarkonan

Sun Feb 22, 2004 12:52 pm

#8

For those of us who have been here since the beginning, we know the boards were not always "closed"- you used to be able get on without registering. Hence the registration date in Spetember or whatever it is.

Irrelevant really, except to attack my credibility. But my point is really unnassaiable- whether you like it or not, the Devs are in charge of the future of this profession. They do not like whining and negative talk. Accordingly, it is my suggestion that the vocal core of the commando community adjust to make them happy. Its that simple. Whining and complaining will only get you ignored.

Take it or leave it.

Draxas Draavat, Master Heavy Swordsman, Blademaster, MBrawler
Order of the Silverflame
Starsider

Zedar Xang, Master Commando, Master TKA
Bloodfin

StarNick

Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:01 pm

#9

"whether you like it or not, the Devs are in charge of the future of this profession. They do not like whining and negative talk"

Just to add my 2 cents worth from me, who also was a commando since the 2nd week...

Not many of us here like the negativity here..but you must ask yourself...Why is there such a thing to start out with? Yes, The devs are in charge of the future of our proffession to a certain degree..but its -against- the law to not provide services when being -payed-...and guess what, most of us are paying 15 bucks a month for this? Dont you think as -paying customers- we demand a right to know whats happening? Like hell we do.

The ONLY reason why there have been so much negativity is the -lack- of communication..thats why many ppl began bashing the devs, and still continue...and guess what? The devs are making matters worse by indirectly calling us whiners and crybabies, and refusing to give us answers "because of negativity"

and to comment on the rest of your post:

We have rethought our strategy..what did it give us?

Silence.

We have posted constructive topics..what did it give us?

Silence.

We have begged for dev responses..what did it give us?

Silence.

We have turned to lashing out and bashing to the dev's seemingly inability to simply just inform or try to work with both our correspondant and our community (why did we loose 2 correspondants?..because of this)..what did this give us?

A rebuttal and now more silence, a justified silence on the devs part.

This problem is not wholly the player community's fault...it was a problem that began to evolve and get worse since the last time commandos actually got an important fix (the progression of pea-shooters to oversize pea-shooters)

Of course, things will naturally change..and we will be working as intended soon enough..but don't you think people will get mad after paying $120 (if paying after the first month free, from june to now..the standard 15 per month) for what? Silence and waiting. If you were a so called silent observer, you would see that

and lastly..

"Garvin- you are a wonderful advocate of our profession- not since Ivoni have we had one so good- but your tone as of late has, as TH said, been more complaint oriented than constructive"

One can only be constructive for so long, before turning resentful Zarkonan..i myself used to post topics, constructively..but since we rarely ever get an answer or a bone or something..i stopped..now i just simply reply..but however, some ppl cant do that...and if EVERYONE did that, why..no one would post..and the devs would have free reign to do what with commando as they like (even more so than now)...this of course is getting redundant..but think about this: Many of the so called nerfs against our proffession was done in response to whiners from *OTHER* proffessions on *OTHER* boards about us...THOSE are complaints are they not? and THOSE are listened to..yet OURS are not? My dear poster, ALL Constructive posts that are attempting to change something ingame in one form or another IS a complaint-whether it be indirect or direct. And now many of those complaints are progressively direct..because of things like the "Commando Test by Thunder"...those things insults many members, and really are not right to us. (thus the vicious cycle turns)

--Stern Synex-- --Master Commando-- --IDI Forces----Proud Commando of 42 Months-- --Last Commando Correspondent--
We fear no enemy...we are the few, the proud, and the brave. We are, Commando!
Pyro Games

Aldyn

Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:39 pm

#10

I don't post alot on these boards but I will have to sayI see both sides to the argument.

"You do catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."

But lately it seems that only the whiners have gotten their way. Why shouldn't we change tactics after so long to a plan that others have proven successful ? I agree name calling is below the belt. But stating what I consider to be the facts and being told patiently to wait for the combat balance... seems like the song and dance the DEs have been listening to since the game started.

Fact : Commando for the point cost (as the Dev seem to think should relate directly to power) should be alot more versatile. I won't list the numerous problems with the class or compare it to others as I have in the past.

Fact: TH has said ----

Commando should not be a soloable class... the other classes that you compare Commando to are supposed to be independent and linearly increase the effectiveness of anyone grouped with them, however; Commando should be extremely weak by his/herself but should geometrically (if not exponentially) increase the effectiveness of anyone grouped with them.

Doesn't this seem to be a description of the squadleader class ?This kind of response indicates the way SWG (as TH works for) believes commandos should operate and would seem to dictate thedirection this combatbalance is going to take... Why shouldn't we voice our opinions and outrage over this ?

Webster's dictionary describes a Commando as :

a) a small raiding force trained to operate inside enemy territory held by the enemy

b) a member of such a group

Based on the above description and the fact that commandois used to describe other elite military units such as Green Berets, Shadow Cats, Tunnel Rats, etc. I would tend to think that a commando should be very capable in solo combat. Not the best in any one field but certainly more than able to hold his own. And the point cost for Commando seems to indicate that was the original plan as well. If we are meant to be another version of a squadleader then shouldn't the skill points needed to attain our class reflect it ?

There is too much about this class that doesn't make sense (as Garvin has repeatedly pointed out) and I can see and understand where the frustration comes from. Hopefully when they are done with DE they will look at helping ahybrid class that has the second highest skill point cost and is totally combat (no tracking jedi, no crafting) driven. I also express my concern over nerfing the FlameThrower before anything else about commando was fixed. We were a one trick pony show and they took our pony....

Message Edited by Aldyn on 02-22-2004 07:40 PM

JohboBocal

Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:19 am

#11

Zarkonan wrote:

For those of us who have been here since the beginning, we know the boards were not always "closed"- you used to be able get on without registering. Hence the registration date in Spetember or whatever it is.

Irrelevant really, except to attack my credibility. But my point is really unnassaiable- whether you like it or not, the Devs are in charge of the future of this profession. They do not like whining and negative talk. Accordingly, it is my suggestion that the vocal core of the commando community adjust to make them happy. Its that simple. Whining and complaining will only get you ignored.

Take it or leave it.

I've been here sine day 1. (actually day 2, because of the first day fiasco :smileyvery-happy And I did not know that. For that I apologise.

In theory what you are saying is correct, but it does not seem so in practice.

Example: We have been trying for months to get a response from someone, ANYONE. Garvin takes the initiative to write directly to TH. It is seen as negative (I don't think so, but that's my opinion) and we not only get an answer from TH, but a direct one from JustG, who plainly admits that the DOT was Ner'f. Those were his exact words "nerf'd".

Another example is that many other professions have complained (this is negative, I beleive) about our FT, and loa nd behold, we get nerf'd.

Another example is many proffessions have complained (once again negative) anout htier professions (chefs, tailors, DE, CM, etc) and once again they get lot's of lovin.

Another example is the FACT that we have had a few correspondents already (the game has only been live since June) who left in desperation because noone at SOE would listen to him, or us for that matter.

This is what we are frustrated about. We have tried being positive many a time, but to no avail. If you have a secret positive formula that will gaet our issues resolved, please post it , I will back you up 100%.

I believe that the problem is that there are SO MANY broken things with the game, and SOE knows it, it is easier to blame others than to admit where they have failed, and REALLY LISTEN TO THEIR CUSTOMERS.

As you have the right to say, "be positive", the next guy has the right to say, "this is broke, I don't like it, I want it fixed, these are my ideas, and I can't stand not getting some sort of response when I am giving positive feedback for 8 months".

And I'm saying that if Garvin's post is considered negative, or whiny, then that is what is needed, due to the fact that because of this post, we were able to get TWO RESPONSES. One from TH, and one from JustG. So the thory and reality of things is different.

I would actually as a customer like to see the developers and players get their priorities straight. As a customer, I believe they should be worried about making me happy, not the other way aorund.

Zarkonan, I have nothing against you, actually I respect the fact that you are here trying to help. We need more people like you. I would just like to respectfully disagree with you and point out my opinion. I do, once again apologize for my ignorance in the matter of the board registration issue. I was unaware of this.

Jobo & Jobi

Vendor located at -2483 -5643
Mos Nova, Tatooine

EnosFiroken

Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:47 am

#12

JohboBocal,

Let me first say that you are one of the most intellegent posters on this thread. Secondly, you are absolutely correct.

We are the customers, and yes, they better listen to us. We are the ones putting the money in thier pockets right?

A few good points:

1. when im traveling around i see many houses with "im leaving, goodbye" or "i miss you all, goodbye" when a few are god friends and even if they are not. Its still sad that this has to happen in such a manner. True... I know people leave from time to time, but i have never seen so many people leave in such a small time frame. Geez, wow isnt even out yet, thats sad.

2. My apologies again for steping on toes but like ive said in the past.... commandos are supposed to be excellent fighters, in pve we excelent but pvp? wow... im surprised i dont carry a stick around to beat people with. Yes i do get buffed yes I have excellent armor, probably some of the best on the serv. But im talking damage here. Pathetic in pvp. And like ive said before um..... commandos are supposed to kill people well, not animals.

3. And thirdly, heh, this games a joke, the only reason i play it is that my friends do. I will say if this combat revamp sucks, im gone. And yes I will drag my large group of friends with me, becuase they are starting to dislike the game too, they are alot more lenient than me.

heh and this funny statement from TH about us being whiny? wow, id have to say ive seen more constructive posts and good points than most profession forums, in any case, please fix it, not call us whiny, heck id come to your office and give you 10 no 20 bucks to watch you play most of these professions for a week and call it "not broken".

i really dont want to leave the game, especailly one with such potiential, but if things dont change for everyone positivelyvia next combat revamp, i will. And so will many others. Im sick of paying for beta and balancing, you shouldnt have to balance the game this much.

just my 2 cents, and a pocket full of change left

Message Edited by EnosFiroken on 02-22-2004 03:22 PM

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garvin

Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:43 am

#13

I applaud the vocal commandos out there fighting to fix what is in fact a broken profession. But the fact is, the tone is impatient and fed-up and whiny. Garvin- you are a wonderful advocate of our profession- not since Ivoni have we had one so good- but your tone as of late has, as TH said, been more complaint oriented than constructive. I urge you to rethink your strategy. We need you, but we need you as a passionate advocate, not a whiner.

While I thank you for the compliments I don't think you've read enough to grasp the full scope of everything...You have to take in my posts for over 6 ot 7 months to truely understand why my post were where they are at today...

Take a look at the recent post regarding the mail I sent to TH and JustG...they do list out all of our issues, past...present...and upcoming...and they may appear to have an impatient/whiny tone...but take into account, for over 5 months, I and others have calmly (at many times) expressed our concerns...many times we've warned the Dev's when they were making a mistake that would come back to haunt us and them...and 99.9% of the time they've ignored us, only to later come back and say "Opps, looks like this was wrong...sorry you guys had to suffer for 3 months while we figured that out..." Now imagine if the Dev's had listened to us and we Avoided that 3 months of issues...Can you see how frustrating that can be...How often are we told what is and isn't our problems from people who don't even ask us what we feel is and isn't our problems? We know our issues better then those outside our profession, but are often told we are wrong (read TH's posts)...And we still have the same issues we've been striving to see fixed since Beta...

So the question is, if they wouldn't listen to our warnings in the past when we used Calm tones, why should we use Calm tones now? Should we not learn from our past mistakes and try different approaches...Seems to me that our "ranting and raving" as of late as obtained us more attention in the last week then we've received in 3 months...

I don't think of our recent posts (especially mine) as ranting or raving...nor are they whining or irrational...they are Pleas!!!...We've asked and asked...now we are getting to the point of begging...The dev's say they have 33 professions to fix and everyone will get their turn, but take a momment and actually read throught he patch notes from the last 7 or 8 patches...take a Notice who is mentioned in each patch and who is missing...Almost every profession has had something fixed in some Patch in the past...EXCEPT us for the most part...We've seen a power boost a long time back but that's about it (refer to our history post)....

Have you ever read up on the finer points of Negotiation? Ask for the world and you might just get a pebble...I'd be happy with a pebble, so that's why I'm asking for the world...We don't need everything fixed all at once...little by little is fine...What we do need to do is make sure that while we are waiting for fixes, that we don't end up more broken...so this is the reason for the Pleas when we see something coming that will end in that result...

Knowing all this, re-read all the latest posts...take into account they are at least6 months in the making...We've tried being Calm and Collective and it's lost us 2 Correspondents (both who left because they felt ignored)...Now ask yourself where Calm and Collective has gotten us so far? How long should we wait patiently for fixes before we start going out of our way to get noticed?

If we are "ranting and raving" it's only because we've been pushed that far...I don't see it as "ranting and raving"...I see the posts as of late as Begging for Acknowledgement...Begging for the Dev's to listen to us and focus on what WE see as our needs, not what they believe we need...We have user tested our profession more then they ever could...

Garvin Lansdowne
Retired Commando Correspondent - Current Blue Glowie
Master Commando / TKM || Architect / Shipwright / Master Droidsmith
ShadowStyrkeGuild.com: A WoW Guild Website

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