Commando Archive
Thread: Garvin, im having 2nd thoughts on Dirty Fighting
PvP'd rather heavily during the weekend, facing various other proffessions and those at different levels of skills.
Raided the Talus Imp Outpost with a friend who had just marksman skills (not even master yet), 3 faction troops (2 mine, 1 his) and our mounts and probots.
Realized that, in almost every engagement, the gun users, if i tried to spam the low blow, would not have the effect hit , nor did panic shot affect them. Even ina 1-1 vs a rather low level BH did that attack fail to stick or plain fail to hit (guess marksman accuracies do suck in comparison). Also, found that the 'master commando' title over my head kept them at 40m+ away from me during the whole fight.
So I quickly stopped trying the smuggler shots and hit the wonderful BURST RUN while i charged them firing the launcher pistol, then flamed them as I cought them... for every one of them tried to turn tail and 'jog' away thinking i was just jogging to them, but they dont have time to realize im burst running to them until its too late.
Dropped 8 people in 1 engagement with just a single burst run. Low blow now seems not exactly useful in pvp (though in pve it was INSANELY useful to crowd control mobs).
Now, what is interesting however is that after i got the master commando title I equipped myself withweapons that would give me access to all the damage types(SG82 for Cold damage, Jawa Ion and Tangle pistol for Stun damage, flamer did heat, acid rifle does acid, a republic blaster for energy and myfists for kinetic).
In afight later on I faced off against a BH and a master brawler (titles anyway).. and they kepttrying tolure me into an NPC atst ... so that literally meant the fight HAD to be ranged only. I kept outside 64m luring them away from the atst (the old game of rush/retreat, rush, retreat).. but they both had full composite armors (i was wearing only ubese). Thanks to aPSG I had on me, my ubese resists plus the PSGgave methe equivalent of around 70% resists tomost ranged damage types.
To make a long story short, I started using the launcher pistol and trying to low blow or panic shot them, but again, the dang thing never stuck (it did hit them but the effect did not stick). So I switched to flamer and tried to score a few hitswith that.. but it missed a lot at 50m and any hits did not hurt them much.. i thinki washitting them for like 80 damage total after resists with the flamer. their ham bars (unbuffed) went downunnoticable levels per hit offireball.
Switched to the SG82, fired a few shots.. same result as the flamer..but the sg82 hit a lot more often. Then the DOHwent through my headwhenI remembered composite is vulnerable to stun. Switched to jawa ion.. and since the accuracy on it is not very good I usedTAKE COVER and AIM every shot. the BH droppeddead in my 6th shot (ion doing around 250 damage to him with AIM and Overcharge2..very nasty), the brawlerthen tried to rush me into melee seeing his BHflop over, so I stood up threw aglop grenade at him @ 30m, amazingly it HIT doing1/4th his ham bar in damage, when he got into melee range he pulled out a2hsword..i almost laughed as I KD'd himwith TKA and torched him on the ground.
Anyway,with this experience Ibelieve the old argument we had about you goingpistoleer or smuggler had us BOTH being right. You saying thedamage in range was more important and I saying thatit'd be pointless since our accuracy was crap in comparison toelite prof's accuracies (i barely scored a few hits in a rowbeing prone and using AIM every shot!).
Now I see that Rifles have most of the exoticdamage types, especially stun damage. Iwill be dropping smuggler dirtyfighting 3 for rifleman Sniper3 tree .. get mind bleed and headshot 3 and loads of accuracy mods... the speed may be slow, but at least i'll hit.
Yeah stun damage is actually surprizingly rare, there isn't really any weapons that do decent amounts of that kind of damage so by the time you take the power of other weapons into consideration those few stun damage weapons aren't all that mucb better. I mean even a post-nerf scatter pistol will cause around the same damage as a tangle pistol since most armor in PvP isn't going to have more than 50% acid protection and in PvE acid vulnerability is acommon place as stun damage.
What the commando really needs is a nice high powered stun damage weapons. maybe if they decide to add that e-web cannon they can give it stun damage so that we can dish out some very potent coverfire in both PvP and PvE.
Very interesting research...thanks for sharing...
I rarely ever do a pvp...probably will more when I complete my template...With just a partial tree of rifle, do you have enough accuracies to make it useful?
Have you done a lot of PvE tests with your template? I did some the other day (haven't finished the Smuggler line yet) and found that when mob'd things can get a bit tough but usually I can eek my way out to a victory...
Funny thing happened the other day...I was grinding pistol xp for the smuggler tree...Had my master commando title on...got into a pack of aggro'd hunters...Had about 5 of them on me...was taking moderate damage (thanks to the 2.5x multiplier) but nothing I could handle, plus I still had equilibrium to use if needed...each of my opponents had a nice bleed on them...All of the sudden out of no where a Master TKA comes in and KD all my opponents and takes them out...Then says "Your welcome...looks like you bit off more then you could handle so I had to come save you..." I informed them that I actually didn't need the assist but thx anyway...and I told them I was a master tka so if I got in trouble I could have just gone unarmed and totally zero'd out my damage taken...the response I got was "Well we are not invincible you know..."
I wanted to say...I AM...lol...but I kept my ego in check...just thought it was funny that they automatically assumed I was in danger because of my title (my HAM wasn't even half way)....
Like i said, smuggler abilities are insanely useful in pve. If you like to pve only or hunt with groups, you can save a lot of people from getting DB'd by popping in a panic shot and then flameconing the place.
but in pvp it seems the defense vs kd and ranged defenses plus the low accuracy of master marksman makes the smuggler pistol tree be not very useful. I can low blow and panic shot that graul the imp CH sent at me, but for the life of me I cant get it to hit the ch+pistoleer/carbineer/rifleman because of their high ranged defenses. and if i hit, it doesnt stick most of the time.
And yes, rifleman's left most tree is actually the accuracy tree with the ham-specific special damage shots (mind shot2, head shot3). You get like +28 rifle accuracy in the 3 sniping tree boxes plus novice rifleman. you also get 'rifle aim' bonus when using rifle and the aim command.
What im considering now that ive seen this is:
Master Commando (flame2 and ranged defenses only reason im keeping it, otherwise id drop the grenade and acid rifle trees)
Teras Kasi 4.4.0.4 (i lose the tkasi damage in melee.. but then again, we are losing the 2.5x damage anyway next patch, plus if we can punch it, we can torch it. thats why the kd+dizzy is there for).
Rifleman 4.3.0.0 (most of the rifle accuracy plus the ham specific damage attacks.. and the ability to move without losing the COVER effect plus the ability to shoot creatures without drawing aggro PLUS like +10 extra ranged defense mods). Oh, and ranged DB. 
Compared to my very high, fast damage in melee master tkasi but vulnerable to range, very high damage in melee range but vulnerable to ranged master commando and not reliable or accurate smuggler pistol/exotic rifles template, this one would be high damage, accurate ranged rifles damage, high damage at melee range commando ... and with the same utilities as I had with my older combo (I even gain some more ranged defense and more utilities).
Ill start by getting rifle sniper tree 3, then when patch hits i should have more rifle xp saved up and we'll see if if the new 2.5x-less patch really affects us.
Gentlemen,
What about using the pistoleer accuracy tree in addition to the smuggler pistol specials? If you max that tree you'll have an additional 35 accuracy plus 20 more accuracy while moving. The extra 20 to pistol aiming is just icing on the cake (assuming you have the time to aim to help take down people with the smuggler skills).
I'm 1.5 boxes from MCommando, and really diggin commando. I'm having a hard time deciding on MTKA or splitting up those points in some smuggler/pistoleer/medic skills. I don't want to just run up and smack stuff. I'm better at being a support person to my group through my dot's, AP3 ranged support, and some healing if necessary. If I can get the smuggler specials to work PvP then I'm thinking I'll be a great multi-roll support for my guild. I'm still a little new to PvP but I usually learn pretty quickly. 
What do you guys think?
Morphias
Too bad I can't edit...
My thoughts are that I love commando and I want to support it. How about:
Master Commando/Smuggler 0-0-3-0/Medic0-0-4-0/Pistoleer0-4-4-0?
Morph
Tac and I are both Master Commandos and TKMs...that only leaves about 18 pts left...with that we can basically get about 0030 of something else...the question is what's the best thing to invest in...Medic, Rifleman, Pistoleer or Smuggler...
It comes down to what is the weakness that TKA and Commando share...easy, lack of ranged specials...So which ranged specials are better: Smuggler, Pistoleer or Rifleman...Medic is not needed as much with the tanking ability of TKA...and Commando takes care of the DOT...Smuggler could give a nice KD, but Pistoleer appears to higher damage then the Smuggler in the long run...so it's a tough choice (haven't even looked at Rifleman, but the idea of a mind bleed is very appealing...)
If you are asking yourself "why keep Master TKA?"...main reason for me, +70 unarmed Damage and nice new special that does some serious damage...so if I go unarmed, I know I can do nice damage while utilizing the defenses...then when the timer is done, whip out the FT again and use another special, or combine the FT with first a TKA KD (if they are close enough) for easy DOT'ing.
I'd be very intersted to hear how all this works out!
I play PVP a lot and go xp hunting in groups, I just started on theDirty Fightng tree. Guess I'll hold off on this and finish mastering my commando - I think my build is roughly this atm:
Commando 3/3/4/0
Smuggler 0/0/1/0
Pistoleer 0/1/0/0
Medic 2/0/2/0
Scout4/3/0/2
As you can see I'm confused to say the least! 
Another thing you boys are forgetting in pve.....FEIGN DEATH....however unhonorable it may be, you get it at DF1, and I can personally attest to FD saving me from some pretty nasty critters (rancors, giant dune kimo's, and the elusive peko peko albatross). Also, I think the pistoleer accuracy tree would be better than the special moves. If you hit more often, the low blow and panic shot have a better chance of working. Also, you need to evaluate which weapon are you going to use more often. Personally, I like the idea of the meditation tree, but I think it has limited usage. I am currently working toward master smuggler, then will be picking up commando again, which if I master both, I don't get much else. But I can tell you, that my medic skills have saved a few master tka's that gave up medic, because they didnt think they needed it. It is all personal preference on how you want your character to end up over all.
Here's a thought, instead of the super rockets and cannons, give us some rocks and logs to kill the atsts like the ewoks.
Glyndo Malina, Retired Elder Smuggler 
the accuracy is one issue garvin and I have (our templates being = atm ) with the smuggler dirty fighting.. but the other half is the defense mods of other players making the KD hits not stick.
Yours is good for dealing damage from range, but, like I argued with garvin, you are still in deep trouble if you face a master pistoleer.. he will have more speed, more damage and more accuracy mods than you will have. And quite possibly, the smuggler kd or panic shot wont work on him. you can shoot and hurt him back trying to get into flamer range (which will likely MISS due to the 2 of you moving..flamer has no on-the-move mods), but you wont win unless he has a much inferior armor than yours (in which case you won because your pockets were deeper than his).
Im an avid WW2 combat aviation fan, and one thing that you learn when playing online in such games is that you must identify your strengths and weaknesses vs the other guy's plane type strength and weaknesses. And , in combat, be the one forcing the other guy to fight your way (where you get the most advantage).
Applying this here, if I take pistols and master commando, your strengths are on-the-move mid to close range shooting using pistol... and close range, not-on-the move flamethrower. You are inviting others to force you into their way of fighting so you lose. If you fight with on-the-move pistol, they will be better at it and they will deny your flamer by doing so. And how do you force soemone else to come into melee range of you and stay still so you can have a good chance of flaming them? Only a melee class would do that, and if thats the case youd better be kiting them instead of chancing a flamethrower miss & the sure to come deathblow.
With rifles oth, you are a static (take cover is wonderful) ranged fighter with great accuracy, forcing them to either fight at range, where only a master rifleman will beat you (you have much better accuracy and unhealable mind damage with rifle). And if you face a master rifleman you force him to fight YOUR way by closing in. And if you are prone and someone rushes you to get into close range ('cause rifles dont hit well past 20m), that means they are in flamer range. And having Tkasi KD+Dizzy means you can unequip the rifle , stand up, kd+dizzy the melee class that rushed you and torch him, or just torch the gun user that came in to short range of you to avoid your rifle... but got himself into flamer range.
either way, you end up fighting to your best advantage, not theirs.
Of course, this is my opinion.. ill be testing this out in the next week or 2.
oh well garvin if you're pve mainly, keep smuggler. panic shot is GOLD in groups. low blow and panic shot make you the next best thing to a tka on 3 sunburns and drugged out of his mind.
im more into pvp. I hate to fight stupid, predictable AI.