Commando Archive
Thread: Crazy Idea that I need Input on...
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garvin
Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:10 am
#1
OK...has anyone here ever played City of Heroes (CoH)?
This weekend I had a friend demonstrate the game for me (I'm always looking for ideas for us via other games out there)...
While playing that game I was introduced to a certain ArchType called "Tanker"
Tanker: low damage output but high defenses. A tanker can go head on head with a mob many levels higher than them. On the other hand, it'll take a long, long time to finish that mob off. Tankers also have taunt abilities to get the enemies to attack them, rather than one of the squishies.
I tried out this Character Type...I was able to take on most high level NPCs taking little damage, but also not being able to damage at very high levels...but when grouped with Blaster (think Rifleman) I was able to act as a shield for the very low defense/very high offensepartner and we were able to take on just about anything together...
A crazy thought hit me...Maybe this is what a Commando should be...For a long time we have said that we should be the "front line attacker" setting things up for those behind us, but we've also focused heavily on our fire power capabilities...
Maybe we have it backwards...Maybe we should make ourselves TANKS...Maybe we should push for the highest Defenses in game with moderate Non-Consumable fire power (our Consumables would still be high power)...We could then be used to take all the damage (basically block) for those others that we group with...
Just a crazy thought, but what would people think if we reversed our profession to being the Highest Defense in game with "pull" abiltities so we can Tank for others...That is one of the basic reasons that many Commandos add TKA to their templates...
Anyway, like I said...this is a crazy idea, but I thought it might prove for some interesting discussion....
Draconicius
Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:33 am
#2
Hiya Garvin.. Friendly neighborhood weaponsmith troll here.
I think that would be a good idea... but for that to really work you would need something like an AE taunt in PVE... and .. well.. I dunno what in PvP.
The delay in Commando attacks basically makes it so after you attack you just stand there (Duh, been reiterated MANY times) but being able to soak up damage for a group would be a good idea.
Now... what about other little tweaks.... like commando only Shield gens... that affect only the group the commando is with? Would give a viable PvP option without imbalance? ( I have no idea really about the mechanics of shield gens... all i know is sometimes they work and sometimes they dont).
Or how about giving the commando a /coverplayer command. When used it would protect a given PC... It would add half the commandos defenses to the "covered" player. Any attack fired/swung will have a chance to be "blocked/intercepted" and the dmg will be done to the Commando but at a reduced rating due to the purely defensive status of the commando. Now... in this state the commando will ALWAYS be hit ... again due to the protective nature of this command, but there is also a chance that the attack will sneak through and land on target bypassing the commando's Ham and landing on the "covered" target. (Blocking a blaster bolt is hard). I would say odds of an attack sneaking through are about 33%. So in order to get to the main target .. you must take out the commando first (I.E. Switch Targets)
Oh.. the /coverplayer would have a timer and a range for it to be effective.
I think this would add a bit more of a degree of tactics to the game. ( IE who to kill first.. if you can find them)
This would also open up the commando to be the finisher of the combat.... you never know when he is gonna whip out flame 4 and cone everyone.
Just tossing ideas out there to get the pot stirred... I will be the first to admit I have no idea what other role a commando could play other than front-line-dmg-dealer. So... whatcha think?
Ajo79
Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:51 am
#3
I don't think it's a ranged profession that should be "the tanker profession". I can't in my mind see a Commando as a "tank". Sorry, that's just not possible. I seeCommandos as high damage dealers instead, sorta like its now, but Commandos aren't there yet.
Though the idea overall is pretty good, perhaps a totaly new profession should be created. No idea what to call it but something that requires Master Brawler and something else, so the prereqs would be on the same level as BH and Commando.
As the game stands now you can create a good tank using a combo of the melee professions, and thats fine with me. Commando should be upgraded to justify the damage we should be dealing out. Its much easier that way.
admisgd
Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:03 am
#4
I like the planof us being high damg dealer with comparible def to other ranged professions, but i have alsways seen the melee classes as the tanks. It would be cool to have a ranged tank class but i just don't see that as the commandos purpose. We are there to bring the big guns to the fight atleast that is where I see our purpose in the GCW unfortunatly that is not the case right now but who knows. Garvin keep up the good work and keep the ideas flowing.
/salute
Message Edited by admisgd on 08-25-2004 11:03 AM
Message Edited by admisgd on 08-25-2004 11:05 AM
Skeptic666
Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:06 am
#5
Dude any questions ask me I have a level 30 Tanker on that game 
Skeptic666
Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:11 am
#6
OK here is my 2 cents boss. One Tanker is going to be messed with. What the Tankers want in the tame Are The power to tank and take damage. And be able to to Big hits but the hits take a long time to recharge but would demonstrate more of a tank feel like we take daamge and pack a punch just not as fast as the others. Its on the COH forums like mad. I have a Ice/Ice tanker there.
As for that no I don't think that we should be tanks. That is what melee professions are for. If we are tanks then why would we bother with tkm which I really enjoy. I think we need to be the Boom guys. I mean come on. We like to watch things blow up and cause damage. That is at least what I like no?
We are not tanks. Tkm Fencers are tanks. If you did that we would not only suck in PvP cuz wed still have low damage but we would blow in PvE and ummm what point would there be to a commando but sit and take damage. I like my tank there but I don't want to be just a tank here. We are commandos Not punching bags. Leave that to the melee professions.
Peace and love my Commando corospondent!
Hellshot
Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:32 am
#7
My understanding was that melee professions are supposed to be the tanks of SWG, with ranged professions being the blasters/wizards/mages (depending on which games you have played). The problem is that the way combat has evolved in SWG, the melee professions are tank/mages, capable of dealing and receiving immense damage, and on top of this the flexible skill tree system allows them to also be veryeffective self-healers, making them totally self sufficient. While I think anyone should be able to play reasonably well solo, grouping should be beneficial, thoughonlyan absolute requirement for high end content. By the way, this issomething that CoH excels at.
dpuWookiee
Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:59 am
#8
I agree with what Hellshot has to say... right now the melee classes are high damage high defense... a combo that definitely gives them the upperhand... I would rather see our weapons fixed so we are high damage, lower defense, and then the melee classes would have to bealtered (lower damage)as well
Skeptic666
Wed Aug 25, 2004 1:15 pm
#9
Hey garvin is your sig messed up or just my puter? The bottom seems cut off
TKA-MC
Wed Aug 25, 2004 1:52 pm
#10
Garvin said:
The direction I was thinking is that they are the Melee Tankers and we are the Ranged version of that type of Tanking...
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I like the idea of Commando having some tanking capabilities. Instead of maybe getting better defenses we may be able to get a little something called "Armed Toughness" that would be similar to TKM unarmed toughness. We would only get our toughness when we have a "Commando" weapon equiped. RazorCat wrote a great post about this very concept.....dont have a link though. I'd be willing to trade Defenses for a "Armed toughness" any day, it would truly allow us to be the "Front man" of the line. It'll also give some more of a reason to be a Master Commando. Commando's are supposed to be tough bastards in my mind.....currently the only tough part about us is when other classes have to stop for two shots to take us out.
Starcloud
Wed Aug 25, 2004 1:56 pm
#11
When I was a Master Commando, I didn't tank. Ever.
I let other people tank for me, while I hit the big nasty creatures with Rocket Launchers, Particle Beam Cannons, etc.
Commando is in a curious position... we have nasty weapons with good damage output, we have heavy weapons that can one-shot 15k ham mobs if experimented properly, and we can fight at long range or at close range, but our defenses from just commando aren't sufficient to really *tank* anything.
Garvin, you chose to become a tank when you picked up TKA. You chose to be able to stand toe to toe with those big nasties. Thus, your gameplay and game experience have led you to conclude that this is what commandoes should be good at. Granted, the fact that we do need Unarmed 4 makes it a natural progression... but leave the choice up to the player, please.
I preferred to play a ranged combat template. When I go back to commando, I'll probably go for the "Heavy Weapon Specialist" template, and pick up the LLC and maybe pistols tree from BH.
And honestly, Swordsman is overpowered compared to Commando... since Swordsman do more Blastdps with their Powerhammers and melee specials than we do with our slow Rocket Launchers (and *lack* of specials for that weapon)... so the comparison of Swordsmen to Commandoes are not taking into account actual playing conditions on Live. And I rarely used the Launcher pistol, since I couldn't stand the graphics overkill and the low damage...
Finally, for the record, we have a "tank" profession in game... Fencer.
SinjenRandall
Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:06 pm
#12
garvin wrote:
Thanks for the input...From what I gathered is that the Devs think of us as the Ranged Version of Swordsmen...We are often compared to them...They are the "Melee" version of us with high Blast Damage capabilities...
The direction I was thinking is that they are the Melee Tankers and we are the Ranged version of that type of Tanking...
I definitely agree that I prefer us having high firepower over high defenses, but just thought I'd open it up for discussion to check if we are still heading in the right direction...
It is interesting that you should say that. Swordsmen by themselves are low defense, high offense. Every weapon they have is Medium AP. I was a Swordsman for a very long time. However, dabbling in other professions gives them a pretty formidable defense as well. Center of Being is a good equalizer, too. What do we get? 2.5x to hit modifier when we have a heavy weapon equipped, and it takes forever to unequip it.
The fact is that most of the enemies in the game fight as Melee, and that means that all of the drawbacks of being ranged hit us, while they do not affect swordsmen.
If I were in this purely for the numbers, I would be insane to choose my current template over my former template, and I would actually extensively dabble to get the best of all worlds.
If we are going to be compared to Swordsmen, they also have to take into account that Swordsmen can pick up a lot more value and variety with the skillpoints they have. We need to get a considerable boost in damage output just to be on par with Swordsmen, and then we need a considerable boost in defense, just to be on par with Swordsmen.
But anyway, I am rambling. Looking forward to what happens next.
RazerWolf
Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:11 pm
#13
Yeah, I'd say the melee classes are more suited for Tanking than Commando. And remember that the melee classes are a lesser investment skillwise than a Commando, you can take one melee profession and have high damage and low-med defences, -and- have plenty of skill points left over to optimise your defence. MSword/MFencer/MBrawler/ 4/3/0/4 TKA being one such combo. You end up being very specialised in melee, but a beast of a tank. Maxed Melee/Ranged Def, 95 KD Def, 90 Posture Down Def, 65 Dizzy and Stun def, plus mitigation and your profession toughnesses.
The way -I- see it, Commando being a Hybrid should be more versatile. We should have the option to fill in the Tanker or Blaster roles. The FT is in melee range anyway, so you can take that tree (add some toughness to it), and dabble for dizzy, KD, stun def and melee mitigation. Now this Commando already exists and is a pretty good Tanker, though not quite up to pure melee standard. I tanked NS solo back in the day back when they originally had force powers. Where Commando should really shine is it's blasting abilities. One line dedicated to close range fighting, fine. Three trees of medium to long range battling. Going back to the Wishlist/Revamp post, improve on the disposables and have a tree of Rifles (of some description, either Rifles as in Rifleman profession, or a modified HAR), and this allows the Commando to take a more damaging role.
Doing this would make the Commando profession's greatest strength it's versatility. You can Master, and be very good in a number of areas, (Tanking, Damage Dealing), and be able to Dabble to either fill in the weaknesses or maximise the Strengths. If there was a Rifle tree, the obvious choice would be MRifle/MCommando, much as MCarbine or MPistol with MBH are now.
The way -I- see it, Commando being a Hybrid should be more versatile. We should have the option to fill in the Tanker or Blaster roles. The FT is in melee range anyway, so you can take that tree (add some toughness to it), and dabble for dizzy, KD, stun def and melee mitigation. Now this Commando already exists and is a pretty good Tanker, though not quite up to pure melee standard. I tanked NS solo back in the day back when they originally had force powers. Where Commando should really shine is it's blasting abilities. One line dedicated to close range fighting, fine. Three trees of medium to long range battling. Going back to the Wishlist/Revamp post, improve on the disposables and have a tree of Rifles (of some description, either Rifles as in Rifleman profession, or a modified HAR), and this allows the Commando to take a more damaging role.
Doing this would make the Commando profession's greatest strength it's versatility. You can Master, and be very good in a number of areas, (Tanking, Damage Dealing), and be able to Dabble to either fill in the weaknesses or maximise the Strengths. If there was a Rifle tree, the obvious choice would be MRifle/MCommando, much as MCarbine or MPistol with MBH are now.
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