Commando Archive
Thread: My Speculations on the state of the Combat Revamp Docs
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garvin
Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:06 am
#1
I posted this in another thread but thought it could use it's own...again, this is only my thoughts and NOTHING confirmed...
Still no news regarding the docs...TH is rumored to be putting together some type of statement regarding the state of the docs...He has repeatedly assured us that the Revamp is still on and proceeding...Unfortunately I am in the dark currently as to why the Docs have not come out yet...But I'll try and speculate here (and this is only my speculation...no evidence of this and not based on anything the Devs have said...
The Docs we saw consisted of
- Combat Balance Guide
- CombatDoc
- Armor Doc
- HAM Doc
- A really rough draft early version doc that contained specifics on changes to Combat Professions
- One or 2 others that I can't recall off of the top of my head....
These docs were written to include Face to Face discussions on the issues contained in them, so reading them without the F2F interaction leaves a lot of holes...Each doc averaged7 to 10 pages...
Since the summit TH and the Programmers we met with at the Summit have been taking our conversations and quetions and trying to work them into the Docs, as well as tweak the docs so there aren't so many seperate ones...He has said that he wants, as much as possible, to fit into these docs as much as the F2F stuff as possible. He also wants to get that "Combat Profession Specifics" more concrete...
When I say the Combat Professions doc was a rough draft early version, I don't mean that what I saw may not happen...I mean that it wasn't complete...not all the numbers and specials were there for every box (The Commando page was the MOST complete of all the professions)...also they were still deciding where to "put" things...they know what they want in there, but not completely sure where some of the things will go...As for the actual numbers, none of them will be "Set in Stone" until they hit the Sandbox...That's where they'll get tweaked...It's going to sound silly, but I'm pushing for us to go into the Sandbox MORE powerful then we need to be...I'd rather bring us down to acceptable levels then have to fight to get us turned up...From what I saw though on the rough draft version of that Profession doc, much of it reflected the issues we have constantly stressed we needed to compete on a better level without taking us to Uber levels...it actually looked fairly well balanced, but will depend on the new damage formula and how much power our weapons will actually be capable of...The doc reflected defenses, accuracy, speed and a few new key elements...But it didn't reflect power...so that's a key thing we'll be looking to test...
Anyway...It's my guess that the rewrite of the Docs combined with completing the "Profession Specifics" is what is holding them up...Personally at this stage, I'd love to see them start releasing what they have and let us Correspondents work with our Communities to help explain things...I got the definite impression at the Summit that the Devs feel like they have "One Chance" at this to get it right...if they put out something incomplete or not fully explained, I believe they are worried that folks will completely shot down the whole Revamp and not listen further to their ideas/explainations...Look at the Recursive Macro fiasco...All the Devs said was they were considering removing Recursive Macros, all of the sudden people were blasting them when NOBODY knew what would be involved in that change or really how those changes would effect them (because they don't know HOW the devs plan on removing recursive macros or what changes they will make so that people can still do what they like to do)...Now when someone even says the word Recursive Macro people cringe...The Devs want to avoid that type of reaction...so I think they are extremely GUN SHY about the release of the docs...
Anyway...that's just my guess...hopefully TH will be posting something soon...but to be honest, and I know this is going to sound like I'm doing Dev Speak...If reaction is positive to TH's post, it may help speed up the release of the Docs (they won't worry as much about a negative reaction to them), where as if reaction is bad, they'll get more gun shy about the release and keep "polishing" them even more...
I guess we'll all just have to wait and see....
Ster
Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:19 am
#2
garvin wrote:
(The Commando page was the MOST complete of all the professions)...
That is really good to know actually. I hope they continue to put time and thought into our profession. I am at the point where I have to choose between TKM and MCom... because of these words I am sticking with my first love.
.It's going to sound silly, but I'm pushing for us to go into the Sandbox MORE powerful then we need to be...I'd rather bring us down to acceptable levels then have to fight to get us turned up...
That is a great idea. The DEVs have never liked turning a profession's power up once it has already been established. Of course they do like doing knee-jerk reactions to something that is too powerful. Such as removing a certain DOT. I think it is a fine line to tread.
From what I saw though on the rough draft version of that Profession doc, much of it reflected the issues we have constantly stressed we needed to compete on a better level without taking us to Uber levels...it actually looked fairly well balanced, but will depend on the new damage formula and how much power our weapons will actually be capable of...The doc reflected defenses, accuracy, speed and a few new key elements...But it didn't reflect power...so that's a key thing we'll be looking to test...
POWER, POWER, POWER. DPS is the name of this game. Accuracy and speed in our weapons was also a huge issue, but we gotta be heavy hitters as well. Plus be able to actually hit our target once in a while.
I got the definite impression at the Summit that the Devs feel like they have "One Chance" at this to get it right...if they put out something incomplete or not fully explained, I believe they are worried that folks will completely shot down the whole Revamp and not listen further to their ideas/explainations...The Devs want to avoid that type of reaction...so I think they are extremely GUN SHY about the release of the docs...
That is a very accurate assumption on their part as well actually. They have to do it right the first time and not short-change a single item. If they do, there will be some extremely upset people. The Combat Revamp (and JTL) is pretty much what a lot of people are sticking around for to see if they will continue with this game. With WoW and other MMOs coming out they have to stay competitive, and that includes making the game more enjoyable.
I guess we'll all just have to wait and see....
Still waiting patiently. I have faith in ya Garvin.
Nerj
Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:31 am
#3
Thanks for the info Garvin. I thinkI understand why you feel like TH. It's because you are going his job. That said, a couple of points.
1) The Commando page was the MOST complete of all the professions - It sounds like they feel that all of the combat professions, should be compared to us. This is a very good thing! In that we should have the most Combat experience.
2) I am sure that as soon as the new correspondents get up to speed, in order to handle the questions. The docs should be released. There should probably be phone converstions between the DEVS and the new correspondents in order to help facilitate this. Would be like a mini-combat summit for them. In addition, if the old corespondents are available still they could help them out.
P.S. -- I am sure that as soon as you hear in the correspondent forum, that the docs are posted for your review you will let us know, won't you?
Syzygy-Gorath
Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:39 am
#4
First, I want to thank Garvin for his efforts in keeping us abreast of whatever he can. I in no way want to slight him or the work he's done. However, I think he was very right about the devs having one chance at getting this right, and they've already blown it. We've seen no indication that their communication skills have gotten any better in the past year, and, in fact, the revamp documents only bear out the fact that they have no regard for the community, nor do they intend to give us any more than they have to to keep the majority from quitting.
To me, this is all too little, too late. All it would have taken is a post from Thunderheart confirming that things are still on track, but he can't even be bothered to do that much. I, for one, am tired of it. I'm still curious to see what the sandbox server will bring, but I no longer hold out any great hopes. My interest in JtL is gone, and I have absolutely no interest in pursuing a jedi character. In short, the great promise that this game once held has long since been destroyed through mismanagement and poor programming. I am now content to wait as long as the powers that be want me to for the revamp documents, but only because I no longer feel any investment in them, or the game as a whole.
Yoda2397
Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:40 am
#5
(The Commando page was the MOST complete of all the professions)
This must be that Friday feature we should have had in August... 
garvin
Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:43 am
#6
Nerj wrote:
Thanks for the info Garvin. I thinkI understand why you feel like TH. It's because you are doing his job. That said, a couple of points.
1) The Commando page was the MOST complete of all the professions - It sounds like they feel that all of the combat professions, should be compared to us. This is a very good thing! In that we should have the most Combat experience.
That's how I pretty much felt...I also felt that it backed TH's claim that Commandos are getting a huge amount of love in the Combat Revamp...something he has told us for a long time but could never provide what that "love" detailed (a source of endless frustrations)...
2) I am sure that as soon as the new correspondents get up to speed, in order to handle the questions. The docs should be released. There should probably be phone converstions between the DEVS and the new correspondents in order to help facilitate this. Would be like a mini-combat summit for them. In addition, if the old corespondents are available still they could help them out.
I'm actually pushing for at the very least an Instant Message Chat for the new Correspondents (many of us Correspondents often IM each other...I'm evenmaking sureour Sandbox testersare set up forIM'ing so we can better coordinate our testing down the road)...They should all have access to the Revamp docs we all originally saw and I'm sure they'll have TONS of questions...The Programmers and Devs actually have a really good Q&A doc going that collects many of our questions with their responses...that should be of big help to the new Correspondents as well...
Down the road I may push to go with Team Speak for some live chatting...I have used that a few times in game with nice results...
P.S. -- I am sure that as soon as you hear in the correspondent forum, that the docs are posted for your review you will let us know, won't you?
ABSOLUTELY!!!
Message Edited by garvin on 09-23-2004 09:47 AM
Novock
Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:05 am
#7
Hmm I can understand their feeling of only having "one shot at this" But in reality that is beacused they have borked it so bad up to this point that hardly anyone has faith left in them. I'm dieing to see these documents but I am even more anxious to hear the sandbox is up and the testers are at work. My feeling though, is these documents will not be out until after JTL. Then after months more of silence they will finally announce in December that the sandbox is up, but only partially with huge holes in teh coding. And after months of testing somehwerearound June of next year we might see this on test center, more likely about this time next year is when we might actually see this revamp..... am I being pessimistic or is that about right? They made it seem like stuff was progressing but if it takes months to prepare documents regarding what they are going to do imagine how long it will take to actually code all of this. And unfortunately thats exactly what we have to do is imagine because TH and the devs are not going to tell us anything as they have already shown. Though I look forward to this announcement from Th with great anxiousness... I also don't want to hear it for I have a bad feeling of what its going to say.
Novock
Master Smuggler/Master Commando
And Ben i must be the greater fool for I keep on following!
Skeptic666
Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:08 am
#8
*yawn*
I pre ordered my JTLS today. Sooo I will be able to keep my self busy and fly and probbaly be a allaince Ace before we even hear of the docs or any thing for commando but hey at .least I will have something to do untill then no?
Imador
Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:55 am
#9
garvin wrote:
I got the definite impression at the Summit that the Devs feel like they have "One Chance" at this to get it right...if they put out something incomplete or not fully explained, I believe they are worried that folks will completely shot down the whole Revamp and not listen further to their ideas/explainations
Maybe they should allow the group that's selected to participate in the sandbox testing to review the documents under NDA. This will give them a wider audience to review and give feedback. They will never make 100% of the user base happy, but it would go a long ways having 150 respected members of the player base to approve of the new plan before they release it to the general user group.
Imador
RankorCity
Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:03 pm
#10
Feel free to use my Teamspeak server at anytime, lol
garvin wrote:
Down the road I may push to go with Team Speak for some live chatting...I have used that a few times in game with nice results...
Message Edited by garvin on 09-23-2004 09:47 AM
Novock
Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:13 pm
#11
Not to be the pessimist here but what kind of timeframe do you anticipate Garvin... another year before we see this in live? We have already been waiting and waiting for this:
************************************************************************
TH 12/23/03
I know a bunch of this is in development, but it really is . The combat system is being rebalanced and going forward, its important to get your critical issues to klawlegna so we can act on it. The big bottleneck is communication and after the holidays, a lot of this will be ironed out and smoother.
Instead of "fixing this" and "tweaking" that and ending up with a wobbly 4 legged table because so many number are over-tweaked, we are just revamping the system, but that takes longer.
************************************************************************
and as Th said this wouldn't take a year after launch to implement.
*****************************************************
TH 4/22/04 (OUCH OUCH)
Why is it going to take more than a year post-launch to make this happen?
It's not. We've been talking about things internally a lot. I've stressed the importance of these changes and everyone agrees. We've been going over the implementation details for a couple of weeks now so that we can get this back on track. JustG will be going into more detail in his next State of the Game letter which will be coming out in the next couple of days.
******************************************************
I have a hard time holding your optimism... i did for awhile as you had me stoked but as the days have turned into weeks it has flown away.
I don't see whats being promised here as any different then what has already been promised months ago
TH 6/3/04
This is definitely a topic we can discuss further in our upcoming Combat Balance focus threads.
...and this is another great example of something the correspondents and I will want community input on during the testing while the CB sandbox is up.
This is an early answer and is subject to change, but one of our goals for Commandos in the Combat Balance is to change the way Heavy Weapon modifiers work
...but we wont know until the Combat Balance sandbox is live).
When the Combat Balance begins (which will be soon), the correspondents and some players will be brought on to a special Combat Balance server
Lightsabers have been balanced against the system after the combat balance
The most important component to this is to keep giving good, solid feedback to your correspondent so I can bring these opinions to the development team while the CB sandbox is live.
You can look forward to sweeping changes in terms of functionality, speed, etc.But again, I stress, we talk about this topic a great deal in a conceptual form.The rubber is going to meet the road when we bring the correspondents and other players onto the Combat Balance Sandbox server
Again, absolutely.These changes are the types of things we want to address in the Combat Balance
the only difference is they flew all the correspondents out and showed these documents to you guys. I'm starting to believe it was yet another ploy to buy time. I guess we will see on the stratics tonight for I assume Th will make some vague comment about it as in the past. But as we all know he won't actually say anything. He'll talk about Tiggs being added or maybe hawtpants but we will get no real info no time frames but as we have seen time frames don't matter anyway. Talk is cheep, any promise TH could make at this point has already been made 10 times over a year. And we are nowhere closer. The sandbox was suppose to be "soon" back in June so obviously soon as defined by TH and devs is as a decade rather than a millenium.
As the SWG universe turns. Promises, lies and deception... it feels more like a soap opera anymore than a personal adventure in the Starwars Universe.
RazerWolf
Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:14 pm
#12
If you check the Dev tracker, you'll notice that Tiggs posted a response to that which cleared up visibility completely, as well as added a new entry to the knowledge base. If people want to know, they'll let them know.
RankorCity
Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:16 pm
#13
Further, Garvin, the players can help with providing the Devs with better feedback...
For instance, lets say there is an issue with FlameCone2 (as it seems alot of profs AOE attacks arent working right)...
When filling a bug ticket, I have always given the following info when I discover a problem:
Dear SOE,
Flamecone2 is currently bugged, and works/does not work in the following conditions:
1) Works when standing
2) Does NOT work when kneeling
3) Does NOT work when prone
4) Worksafter tumble to standing
5) Does NOT work after tumble to kneeling
6) Does NOT work after tumble to prone
The more we provide them with info, the better they can be...So I am fully admitting its a two way street...LOL
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