Commando Archive
Thread: -= HEAVY WEAPONS OF WAR =- ( Garvin and Commandos please read.. )
ARMOR PEIRCING IS BROKEN, BUGGED, OR IS USELESS..
I myself am a Master Commando and I too have done my numeroustests. All tests were performed in PvP conditions to regenerate the 75% PvP dmg reduction.
I too believe that Armor Peircing is still bugged or never was working as intended.
Using a FLAME SINGLE 2 with a zero armor peircing valuedoes roughly the same amount of damage as a high end rocket launcer sporting heavy armor piercing value. The damage on the average is 500 dmg -700 dmg.
My theory is thateither Armor Peircing doesnt play as muchof role as we like to believe in combat, and if so its very, very, insignificant.
I have usedProton Grenadessliced for dmg and yeilding dmg well over 5000 pts, and have thrown them at players that were buffed but not wearing armor at all, and only did on the average 800 dmg - 1200 dmg.Proton Grenades doLight Armor Piercing Value,whileplayer running around in boxershas Zero Armor protection.If you took the 5000 pts x.25% (to simulate pvp conditions)= 1250 pts of dmg.So where is the bonus for using Armor Piercing Weapons ?? 50 pts ??? Because I will be dead honest with you I have NEVER been able to do reach 1250 pts of dmg even when usingProton Grenadessliced for 5000 dmg.
And the reality is I dont think my opponent is going to fight me butt naked with no buff in combat conditions. So when its all said and done, after your enemy puts armor on, and is buffed to the max, and adds aPersonal Shield Generator, your doing roughly 300 points of dmg with a 5000 dmg proton grenade.
PAPER TIGER
Our heavy weaponsinitial damage is wiped out by all thevarious protections the devs have added to the community ( Buffs, Stims, Synsteak, Flame out, Armor, PSGs, Dmg Mitigation, Dodge,Center of Being etc etc.. ) , andwith our currentdamage per a second (DPS) , we can not compete with other professions in doing damage over time. So we can niether hit hard or hit fast but we sure dolook scary. You see a Heavy Rocket Launcher with over 3800 - 4000dmg max after being sliced, andyou think, " Man this is gonna seriously put the hurting on someone !" but in the end, its nothing more then a Paper Tiger..
THE DEVELOPER MINDSET
The Devs are in the same mentality, they see that big number of 1700 min- 4000 max , Heavy Armor Piercing and they instantly say , " Wow thats powerful ! Thats gonna unbalance everything if we change it and make it more powerful !" However the devs fail to see the speed factor, the protection factor, the 75%PvP reduction factor, and the Buff Factor.. History has proven that the Devs are very short sighted, and are quick to dismiss anyone asking for more power. Yet we are the "COMMANDOS" and we are the ones that are suppose to be using the " HEAVY WEAPONS", and the way things stand now wedo less dmg then a Pistoleer.
I know Garvin has asked the devs countless times to increase the ARMORPIERCINGon our weapons.Yetthe way I see it, even if allour weapons werebrought up to Heavy Armor Piercing ( AP3 )it still doesnt do muchof a impact, as shown with the rocket launchers.
ARMOR PEIRCING REVAMPED
If the devs are hesistant to change the numbers on the weapons, then ARMOR PIERCING itself needs to be fixed and made more useful. The Commandos are the "Heavy Hitters" of the Galaxy, the devs should not be afraid of the one shot kill mentality. Because thats what the Commando relies on to win battles. The perfect template of the Heavy Hitter is Extremely High Damage at the expense of Speed.Accuracy and Defense really dont come into play in the template even tho many believe the commando shouldnot have good defenseor accuracy. My opinion isif I am gonna have to wait 30 seconds to fire one shot, it better hit the target and it betterfreaking kill it.For this reason there should be a significant difference between NoArmor Piercing (AP0)and HeavyArmor Piercing (AP3).
POINT BLANK
COMMANDO WEAPONS : Should do Mediumto Heavy Armor peircing ,make them slower, increase accuracy. I dont careabout blast damage, reserve HEAVY ARMOR PEIRCING strictly forCommandos.We are the experts at Heavy Weapons and the way it stands nowthe majority of the Heavy Weaponshave zero armor piercing values. which makes weapons like stun weapons appearso powerful.The Commando should be the most feared player on the battle field, andin termsof skill points and desire we should be allowed to be that fearedcombatant.The commando should be allowed to do enoughdamage to make even a buffed,armored , combatant think twice before just rushingup to us. Anyone else that doesnt take nesscary precautions shoulddie without much of a fight. This reinforces the entire gamedynamics andmakes players think more, look for more cover, and plan out there moves withoutjust zerging everything they see and pressing spam spam spam.
ARMOR PIERCING / PROTECTION:Needs to be revamped, change the numberstoallow a more significant impact between the armor values. A multipler of some sort needs to be added as I am sure it already is, however that multiper needs to be increased greatly becauseafter numerous tests I just dont see it.
GARVIN
I know you have brought this taboodiscussion to the developers many times beforebut this is the real issue we face and must remain in the devs faces. Heavy Weapons are the staple of the Commando Community, it is what seperates us from every other joe blow sporting a laser rifle. BLASTDAMAGE IS POINTLESS that should not be the reservation for commandos. Cold, Energy, Acid, Heat, Stunthey are all mirror copies of each other and hold no wonderous powers, no special effects. So reserving Blast for us isnt anything great, unless fighting certain powerful creatures in the Galaxy and even then as I stated with the Acklay,BLAST was like at 80% resist so being a Commando didnt offer me any great importance.
As for DPS, that should not be theargument, I know you mentioned in another post thatasking for a + 30Flame Thrower speedshould help us out greatly in the short term. YetI disagree, without any armor pericing we still wont be feared, we will be barelybreaking even with other professionsdamage if not stilltrailing behind. Stun weapons and poisonare used because they go right through armor.. no matter what way you lookat itasking for speed still puts us behind. CombatMedics, Fencers, and Rifleman are feared for there armor peircing ability. Thatpower, that fear should be reserved for us.
In short,HEAVY ARMOR PEIRCING needs to be the reservation for the Commando Community and ARMOR PEIRCING VALUES needs to be revamped to reflect larger numbers.Period.
- GANK BY EWOKS
Message Edited by GankByEwoks on 08-06-2004 07:25 AM
Message Edited by GankByEwoks on 08-06-2004 07:31 AM
Message Edited by GankByEwoks on 08-06-2004 07:35 AM
grimloch99 wrote:YOU ARE COUNTING HEAT RESISTANCE TO BE THE PROBLEM WITH THE COMMANDO I HAVE BEEN AN COMMANDO 4 A LONG TIME AND I HAVE FOUND HEAT RESISTANCE IS ALL FINE AND DANDY BUT WITH FLAME 2 AND FLAME CONE YOU ARE DOING "FIE" DAMAGE ARMOR PIERCEING IS NOT A PROBLEM YOU HAVE MANY MANY WEAPONS TO CHOOSE FROM AS AN COMMANDO I TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH YOU ON A WHOLE ON THIS THREAD
If you're saying you think we're effective in PvP... go fight sometime. Our only strategy at current (besides attaining all the best stuff... naturally) is to sneak around, try not to attract attention to ourselves, and flame random folks running around on the field. at about 200 dmg per 7 seconds... we aint doin too much buddy. I agree with the main poster here... we need major help. Be it AP or something, I don't know. But we need help.
I ran around some imps, they all laughed at me, and some cheered for me... saying "Give him a break, he's a commando." while PvPing... it's sad... we're pathetic out there. It should not be that way.
grimloch99 wrote:
YOU ARE COUNTING HEAT RESISTANCE TO BE THE PROBLEM WITH THE COMMANDO I HAVE BEEN AN COMMANDO 4 A LONG TIME AND I HAVE FOUND HEAT RESISTANCE IS ALL FINE AND DANDY BUT WITH FLAME 2 AND FLAME CONE YOU ARE DOING "FIE" DAMAGE ARMOR PIERCEING IS NOT A PROBLEM YOU HAVE MANY MANY WEAPONS TO CHOOSE FROM AS AN COMMANDO I TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH YOU ON A WHOLE ON THIS THREAD
grimloch99 what are you saying ?
MaybeI am not following you here, but are you saying that our weapons are working just fine ?
Bare with me for a sec while I go into more detail..
You mention the Flame Thrower, so I will use it in the example. As it stands now, Flame Throwers do Zero AP. My Flame Thrower does roughly 850 min to 1050 max, Sounds Powerful right ? Welllets put it to the test, lets just say I got luckly and burned a opponent with Flame Single 2 for 2000 pts of dmg. Well add in the PVP reduction and your looking at 500 dmg right there, but wait it gets better, add in a Personal Shield Generator44% resist toheat, and that 500 is now330 dmg, but wait we aint done yet, still add in the65% composite that everyone loves towear, and your looking at 115 dmg. We still havent added in Synsteak, Flame out,Range Mitigation, Center of Being, or any of your basic stims and buffs..
But wait it gets better your doing 115 dmg every 5 - 8 seconds !!
So "NO " Heat resistance isnt the issue, the main issue is in its current stateour weapons arent punching a large enoughdent throughArmor to be worth a damn. We need to increase Armor Peircing values across the board for Heavy Weapons and makeArmor Peircing in generalhave more of a impact in combat.
- GANK BY EWOKS
grimloch99 wrote:
YOU ARE COUNTING HEAT RESISTANCE TO BE THE PROBLEM WITH THE COMMANDO I HAVE BEEN AN COMMANDO 4 A LONG TIME AND I HAVE FOUND HEAT RESISTANCE IS ALL FINE AND DANDY BUT WITH FLAME 2 AND FLAME CONE YOU ARE DOING "FIE" DAMAGE ARMOR PIERCEING IS NOT A PROBLEM YOU HAVE MANY MANY WEAPONS TO CHOOSE FROM AS AN COMMANDO I TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH YOU ON A WHOLE ON THIS THREAD
As a Commando Im asking u to turn off ur caps lock and do some research before you open your mouth.
Tyrst wrote:
AP is not broken. AP does notcount in PvP against an unarmored opponent because if you aren't wearing armor you are considered Vulnerable to that damage type. This makesevery weaponAP0 vs AR0. Check the Advanced Armor Guide from SOE.
Advanced Armor Guide Checked, and thrown out the window..
Tyrst if you notice in the Advanced Armor Guide you can clearly see it says, " If a weapons armor peircing value is higher then the armor it is granted a 25% increase per the level higher then the armor " In short, if your running around in your boxers ( AR 0 ) and I fire a Rocket Launcher at you ( AP 3 ) I should be doing a 75% increase in damage. Well that just great, but take into the factin PvP we have a 75% reduction todamage and we are right back to where we started..
Which is why I am saying that ARMOR PEIRCING / PROTECTION needs to have its numbers changedAND increase the Armor peircing levels of all "Heavy Weapons"to medium to heavy.
Because the way it stands now, we really dont enjoy any sort of advantage to using Armor Peircing weapons, andthat is the " trump card " we rely on as commandos. We need Armor Peircing to mean something significant for us, because we hit the slowest out of all the professions. So when wedo hit something it better have the power topunch through the Personal Shield Generator,through the Composite Armor , and through the players buffs, foods, drinks, spices , and skills, hard enough to make them say " OUCH ! " because if it doesnt, then we are dead..
- GANK BY EWOKS
Bolded the relevant parts
Vulnerability:
Vulnerability denotes Damage Types in which the armor offers no protection whatsoever. The bone gloves have quite a few of these: Kinetic, Blast, Stun, Heat, Cold, and Acid. Whenever the armor is hit by one of these Damage Types the damage done by the weapon is neither increased nor decreased. It is as if a weapon with an Armor Piercing value of None is used against a target with an Armor Rating of None. Unarmored Player Characters are considered 'vulnerable' to all damage types.
Tyrst wrote:
Bolded the relevant parts
Vulnerability:
Vulnerability denotes Damage Types in which the armor offers no protection whatsoever. The bone gloves have quite a few of these: Kinetic, Blast, Stun, Heat, Cold, and Acid. Whenever the armor is hit by one of these Damage Types the damage done by the weapon is neither increased nor decreased. It is as if a weapon with an Armor Piercing value of None is used against a target with an Armor Rating of None. Unarmored Player Characters are considered 'vulnerable' to all damage types.
Tryst your not understanding the Advanced Armor Guide...
I highlighted your bold parts in blue and highlighted the key parts I want to show you in yellow..
In the first section to not confuse you or anyone, Vulnerability = No Protection ( AR 0)
In the second section they give a example of a weapon that does zero armor piercing ( AP 0) going against a person that has no protection ( AR 0) , the end result is that you do not get any kind ofbonus, because 0 + 0 = 0
However if take that same guy that has no protection ( AR 0) and used a LightArmor Piercing Weapon ( AP 1) on him, 0 + 1 = 1 you get a Bonus of 1 against him, for every 1point you geta 25% increase in Damage. So 1 = 25% , 2 = 50% , 3 = 75% ...
The problem is when engaged in PvP you get a 75% reduction to damage. So using the above scenerio , take the naked guy once again ( AR 0) , and lets say I used themost powerful weapon a commando has in his / herarsenal, aRocket Launcher (AP 3 ) ,I should be getting a bonus of 3 points against him, thats a 75% increase in damage. Sadly the 75% reduction counteracts the 75% bonus andwe are left with no bonus at all.
Its because we lack that bonus is the reason we are getting our butts handed to us in PvP. If wedidnt have a75%PvP reduction in damage , we would be getting a 75% increase in damage.So that Rocket that did 3000 damage would actually be doing3525 damage ! Instead of 3000 damage, now here is the kicker, I have never seenthe entire I have played this game any commando do3000 damage to a player, even when that player was a newbie straight off the shuttle. At most I have seen a rocket do roughly 1200damage on its best day. Which leads me tobelieve that ARMOR PIERCING is not working as intended, or there is some sort of max damagehardcap in place, or the PvPReduction is more like 85% - 95% !!
That is why I am asking for ARMOR PIERCING / PROTECTION REVAMP,we need to have these numbers checked out and corrected.
If anyone doubts my numbers do the math for yourself and you will clearly see there is a error in the amount of damage we are suppose to do..
- GANK BY EWOKS
Message Edited by GankByEwoks on 08-07-2004 03:21 PM
Message Edited by GankByEwoks on 08-07-2004 03:23 PM
Not a flame so please don't take it that way. I am going to state everything as simply as I can using the facts presented in the armor guide. I sometimes have a harsh way of speaking when I am trying to simplify things. We are probably both saying the same thing and neither one of us is getting it.
1.Unarmored opponents are considered "Vulnerable" to ALL damage types. This means if you are not wearing any armor you are vulnerable to all damage types.
2. If you are hit with a damage type that you are vulnerable to the damge done by the weapon is neither increased nor decreased. It is as if a weapon with an AP0 is used against a target of AR0.
If you read the example that they used in that paragraph it uses bone armor as an example. Bone Armor is vulnerable, i.e. offers not protection,to Kinetic, Blast, Stun, Heat, Cold and Acid. "When bone armor is hit by one of these Damage Types the damage done by the weapon is neither increased nor decreased". "It is as if a weapon with an Armor Piercing value of None is used against a target with an Armor Rating of None". Since players not wearing armor, i.e. Composite, Ubese, Mabari, etc, they are considered vulnerable to ALL damage types and, therefore, when hit with one of these damage types the damage done is neither increased or decreased. This means AP doesn't mean a thing to 1. an unarmored opponent and 2. to someone wearing a set of armor vulnerable to that damage type. If you fight a fencer/rifleman/pistoleer using a stun damage weapon they will do the same amount of damage to you whether you are armored or not. Go fire a launcher pistol at a turret, he turret has AR3, if I remember right, is vulnerable to Blast and the LP hasAP0. If what you were saying is true then it would take forever to take a turret down with one. Yet with an all pistols template and novice commando I could take down a full turret in 60 seconds or less.
This changes completely if your target is not vulnerable to a damage type. If for instance you are fighting a NPC that has AR1 and does not have a damage type listed, e.x. blast is not listed under special protection, effectiveness, or vulnerability, then AR1 vs AP0 applies.