Commando Archive
Thread: Rant: I really wish they removed unarmed requirement
Nothing they can give us yet anyways... 
I'm thinking unarmed IV is going to be much more useful after the CU, as will be our marksman skills.
Message Edited by StarNick on 10-31-2004 06:22 PM
StarNick wrote:
Ummm....cant give specifics out on the CU....not only cuz of the NDA, but you can't get specifics yet on everything till the sandbox goes up...
But I strongly feel that Unarmed will come into play somehow...and somewhere along the lines of innate toughness (perhaps something we'll get more stuff concerning the armour revamp...) or special hybrid moves.
After all, they're adding a whole lot new stuff in...many many possiblities for melee moves in our profession (or tanker style abilities...which im really hoping we'll get)
This is my own personal speculation of course...and also what I hope will happen
Message Edited by StarNick on 10-31-2004 06:22 PM
Gee StarNick...sounds kinda like somehow Sandbox testers have seen the docs...hmmmm...
Anyway...Tac, please tell me you've signed up for the Beta? If so, when you get in, reapproace the idea of removing the Unarmed pre-req and see if you still want it to happen...your arguement for it's removal or against it will have much more clout...unfortunately with the way things are now and with the info you don't know regarding what's happening in the CU, it's hard to base an arguement for or against...and because of the NDA I can't tell you why we do or do not need the unarmed pre-req...
The key thing is that we'll get more out of our Unarmed pre-req post CU, then just a path to TKA...there will be much more too it coming for us...
I know you cant release info due to nda garvin, but I really dont think unarmed is something the commando should take because we dont use it. If you know what we are receiving because we are forced into unarmed 4, please look at each thing we get and think...
... if i didnt have this but had those 29 points could i get something similar or better by spending those 29 points somewhere else?
... if i didnt have this but had those 29 points, how many more template combos would those 29 points open for commando players? (especially those who arent in the least interested in melee type stuff)
... are those abilities really useful or are they a cheap trick like pistoleer melee kd move? is it worth 29 points after considering the previous 2 "if's"
thats what worries me. commandos getting nothing more than you-whined-here-have-this-it-looks-cool-but-is-largely-useless specials. Again, like pistoleer melee KD... its mostly useless and in the times you do use it, it doesnt really help. and all this for 29 points..a sink.
toughness would be nice but then again, what IF id rather be swordman or fencer or pikeman as my 'melee' complement to commando? what if i wanted to get my toughness stuff or melee stuff from those? Oh so sorry, 29 points wasted on unarmed because it was decided for me that my melee specials for commando HAD to be unarmed.... not like commandos never used hand knives (fencer) or bayonets (pikeman like..turns weapon into a spear) you know.
I just dont like to have my skillpoints forcibly spent on stuff that is not at all related to the proffession and worse yet, have fluff crap given to us to justify a point sink.
ask any pistoleer if he would be willing to spend 29 points to get pistol whip and some extra melee toughness or special counter-move or whatever.... i betcha most would say no, they'd rather spend them on bh pistols or something that benefits their own template more.
tacwraith wrote:
I know you cant release info due to nda garvin, but I really dont think unarmed is something the commando should take because we dont use it. If you know what we are receiving because we are forced into unarmed 4, please look at each thing we get and think...
But that's the key...we don't CURRENTLY use it...but what if, in the near future, we DID use it...And what if our Unarmed pre-req turns out to make us much better Commandos AND goes even further to give us additional boosts within our own trees (get something before and after Novice Commando...That's the piece of info you are missing...It's like saying "Why do we have Master Marksman for a pre-req? we don't get much from it but a 'background story'"...It's something ugly that the Devs have FINALLY taken up the challenge to tackle...to make our pre-reqs actually give us something...these things could be anything from new counters, new specials, new weapons, etc...I can't say because of the NDA, but the key to ask is "With the CU, what will we get that we can use as a Commando via our Unarmed Pre-Req and Master Marksman even before we hit Novice Commando?"
... if i didnt have this but had those 29 points could i get something similar or better by spending those 29 points somewhere else?
If you wanted to dabble that 29 points elsewhere post Revamp it very likely you wouldn't want to be a Commando...Unarmed makes sense for a Commando (of all the brawler trees, which makes the most sense if we HAVE TO have one?)...
... if i didnt have this but had those 29 points, how many more template combos would those 29 points open for commando players? (especially those who arent in the least interested in melee type stuff)
If we didn't have that additional 29 point cost, how would you explain the advantages that we MIGHT be getting with the CU over other professions because of our higher skill point cost...would you be willing to sacrifice Commando Damage levels for lower skill point cost? How about lower defenses (that we wouldn't be able to make up)? How about Armor certs? How about our variety of weapons (consumable and non)? What would you give up within Commando to gain 29 points...and if you lose something, would you feel less like a Commando and have more trouble fitting our role? This is pretty much impossible for you to answer without knowing what we are getting both from our Commando Profession and from our Pre-Reqs with the CU.
... are those abilities really useful or are they a cheap trick like pistoleer melee kd move? is it worth 29 points after considering the previous 2 "if's"
What would you give for a Counter to being KD'd? What if you could stop a bleed? What if you could force a ranged player into a 16m range? I'm not saying we are getting any or all of these (can't because of the NDA), but there are plenty of goodies out there that we could be getting that would specifically word VERY well for us building specifically on our weaknesses and coming ot use BECAUSE of our 29 point pre-req cost of unarmed.
thats what worries me. commandos getting nothing more than you-whined-here-have-this-it-looks-cool-but-is-largely-useless specials. Again, like pistoleer melee KD... its mostly useless and in the times you do use it, it doesnt really help. and all this for 29 points..a sink.
It's like me saying that driving a Corvette can't be any different then driving a Geo Metro...I don't have to drivethe Corvetteto know the difference if I've already driven a Geo Metro...They both have wheels...they both take gas...how different could they be? So why they heck should they cost different? Until I drive the Corvette, I won't know whether or not the additional price is worth it...Until you see the new Commando post CU, you don't know if the 29 points are worth it or not...Trust me on this...Commandos WILL become one of the favorite professions post CU even with all of our pre-reqs...and Master Commando will MEAN something...
ask any pistoleer if he would be willing to spend 29 points to get pistol whip and some extra melee toughness or special counter-move or whatever.... i betcha most would say no, they'd rather spend them on bh pistols or something that benefits their own template more.
How about I ask a Pistoleer if they could fix their biggest weaknesses, get dual weild pistols AND a few other items checked off their Top 5 all for an additional 29 points spent, how many would say SOLD!!! I bet ALL of them would...This is just hypothetical of course...
Message Edited by garvin on 10-31-2004 07:54 PM
But im convinced that theres nothing, absolutely nothing that SOE can give the commandos to 'reward' the spending of a novice box + 1 branch worth of skillpoints.
Even if they do give us something for it, its not going to be worth the skillpoints spent. I'd much rather have those skillpoints to spend on something else that will benefit me a LOT more by letting me costumize my character more to my style of play (read: my template combo) than to have some kind of melee attack which cant possibly be strong or as useful as those found in other melee proffessions.
I could do wonders with 29 skillpoints. Specialize my pistol skills, specialize my rifle skills or my carbine skills.. take a scout branch, etc etc. Not spend 29 skillpoints for the 'priviledge' of a single or a couple of half-assed 'fluff' abilities.
Bounty Hunters got a huge influx of skillpoints when SOE removed the requirements that they never needed or used. Well, commando does not need OR use unarmed. So I say, REMOVE IT.
'tis my view on it.
I fully understand that *now* we dont use unarmed for anything. and im not basing my rant on it. Im basing it on what we might be getting in return for it in the CU. I cant think of anything that i'd consider worth spending 29 skillpoints for. Hell, even if we DO get fluff melee-type specials or abilities we should receive JUST for the fact that 90% of our weapons are MELEE RANGE. Unarmed has nothing to do with it.
"If you wanted to dabble that 29 points elsewhere post Revamp it very likely you wouldn't want to be a Commando...Unarmed makes sense for a Commando (of all the brawler trees, which makes the most sense if we HAVE TO have one?"
see thats a problem right there. YOU think it makes sense to be unarmed. Look at the above poster, he likes fencer, probably prefers fencer type stuff in melee. And yes, commandos are trained in hand-to-hand and also to use a combat knife. They are also trained to use bayonets in their weapons (pikeman like).... why should people like the above poster be forced to sink 29 points on unarmed?
"If we didn't have that additional 29 point cost, how would you explain the advantages that we MIGHT be getting with the CU over other professions because of our higher skill point cost...would you be willing to sacrifice Commando Damage levels for lower skill point cost?"
losing unarmed should not in any way or form reduce our defenses or damage, theres no reason to it.
"How about lower defenses (that we wouldn't be able to make up)?"
says who? i could put those 29 skillpoints in another proffession and make up for the loss in defense by giving myself a variety of other skills (not neccessarily meaning getting defenses since that may be changed in CU.. im talking about being able to increase offensive power at the cost of those defenses by dabbling in other proffession's stuff)
"How about Armor certs?"
dunno about that.. but i do know that if SOE is giving commando a good commando-only armor just because we have unarmed4 id be VERY pissed off.
"How about our variety of weapons (consumable and non)?"
how does losing unarmed4 come close to changing our use of ranged heavy weapons? makes no sense at all.
"What would you give up within Commando to gain 29 points...and if you lose something, would you feel less like a Commando and have more trouble fitting our role? This is pretty much impossible for you to answer without knowing what we are getting both from our Commando Profession and from our Pre-Reqs with the CU"
I wouldnt give up anything now cause we barely have anything. BUT if i think of what we may be getting in the CU, if me fears are correct, id gladly give up fluff melee type abilities (kd or counter kd crap) to have those 29 points so i can spend them in something id use far more often for far better performance. Honestly, id even give up ALL our melee defense.. commando should not and will not ever be able to go head to head with a melee proffession, so in essence a melee defense is pointless. in pve i doubt anyone will be soloing big stuff so commando wont be needing a big melee type defense since we'd be the firepower support of the group sort of speaking.
id love to be in the beta, im just raising concerns now since anything that goes in BETA means its going IN the game as it is or in a slightly modified form.. only if its game-stopping will something be removed completely.
"If they can be fooled, they can be killed." As it stands now (if subsribe to my needing a melee class for toughness, mitagation and defenses theory) you can take Commando/TKM and then dabble in either Pistoleer, Smuggler, Medic or Scout with any practicality. Or you can take Commando and Pikeman/Fencer/Swordsman and be left with 4 points hanging in the breeze. This leaves you with much less flexibility and versitility. I like having a few points sunk into medic so I can heal myself, but easily adjust to Scout if the need to harvest ever arises (which it often does as my armoursmith alt has a never ending hunger for the sweet sweet wooly hide).
Anyhow, I am hopeful with the news of new specials and yadda yadda yadda.... I will be even more hopeful once I get invited to the CU beta.