Commando Archive
Thread: Rant: I really wish they removed unarmed requirement
the way i see it, we are forced to go into melee range to use most of our weapons... so SOE thinks we need to be a hybrid to withstand melee.
Problem with that is, its not fair for pure melee types to have a ranged class (and commando IS a ranged class) who can either kite them or beat them up in melee half the time because they suddenly get special moves or countermoves that neutralize ALL of the melee player's skillpoint.
Its like, TKA finds a commando in his face, throws a punch, commando 'counters' the punch by blocking it then flames the TKA and runs away.. all the points the tka spent suddenly become worth jack because commando got an ability that lets him do this .. and even if its only HALF the time the ability works its still unfair to the tka.
OTH, if the commando is not forced to have any melee pre-reqs and thus not given 'fluff' melee abilities like the above mentioned, he could instead spend those points in something else.
i hope ill be let in the beta, but im very skeptic (no pun skept66!) about the overall impact of anything soe can give the commando as a 'reward' for such the idiotic point sink of unarmed4. id hate for it to be GOOD for a commando but unfair to other classes which will down the road get nerfed and nerfed to the point its almost useless and THEN we'll be stuck with the unarmed4 point sink and nothing gained for having it. Just like our flamethrower.. first it was useless, then it was good, then people 8itched and whined...then commando got nerfed with the 2.5x melee damage multiplier... then commando got un-nerfed by removal of 2.5x... only to be shortly after nerfed AGAIN by having its only working weapon neutered by the removal of dot-stacking and the dot-nerf plus the introduction of fire blankets and other items which deny the already underpowered AP0 flamer.
I dont know if you've played dark age of camelot or not, but that game's combat system was based on attacks, counter attacks and counter-counter attacks as well as proffession specific abilities that enchanced the 3 (and that could also be countered and counter-countered with other abilities). Just saying this to illustrate where I come from with how i worry about the fluff stuff we may be getting because we have unarmed4.
"What if Commandos were MEANT to be a cross between a Melee and Range Profession...a sort of middle ground of all combat profession that specializes In combat"
If thats so, then why we are forced to take unarmed?. Why are we not given the choice of WHICH melee branch of brawler we want to use? You know, just like padawan requires 6 branches of ANY FS types, why not have commando be master marksman+1 brawler branch (any) ?
That would let those who would rather have pikeman/swordman/fencer to enchance their commando than tka not spend skillpoints on crap they wont use. Same reasoning why BH's were given back most of the scout branches worth of skillpoints: they didnt use them at all.
"And what if, post CU, Melee Targets could no longer be kited to death...would that make any difference? Waht if Commandos included could no longer be kited to death without us having to dabble anything outside our own profession if we wanted to..."
i think its great. but then again, commandos aren't getting that because they have unarmed4 requirement are they? if you took away the unarmed4 requirement NOW we'd still be a proffession that gets kited just like a melee proffession and would still require to have such an anti-kiting ability. So i will discount this as an excuse to have unarmed4 pre-req.
"What if a Commando countering a TKA attack could then find a new TKA surprise to deal with then just being KD'd? Something else that could possibly prevent the Commando from hitting them everytime with the Commando Attacks...What if the Commando and the TKA had to be MORE strategic...and on that same note, what if the "Counter" costs a HUGE price to use meaning it could be used as a tactic by the TKA (force the Commando to use the Counter)? Would that make and difference in you thinking Melee Professions are getting screwed?"
i didnt say melee would get screwed. im saying that 1brawlerbranch+1 mastery should not be defeated in melee range by a melee type attack or counter by a class that has only 1 branch in melee (and a bunch of ranged weapons that fire at melee range for their specials but that still fire out to 64m without specials)
"You seem to believe that Counters will hurt Melee types...you are not seeing the bigger picture...how do you know Melee types are getting certain counters as well...Trust me in this, Melee professions are NOT getting screwed...in fact, Melee types should be able to compete even better with Ranged types post CU...the winner in EVERY fight should go to the person who's strategy is better (which includes using certain template builds against other template builds and then knowing how to use what you have strategically)...A Melee Template should have a chance against a Ranged target if they PREPARED to eventaully fight ranged targets..."
Im all for that!
and im not 'not seeing the bigger picture' .. im trying to see beyond it. Again, my main worry is for the commando to receive a melee-type move or ability because we have unarmed4 (i just used the counter example earlier to illustrate the concept, not that i was thinking that THAT was something we were getting) that somehow will allow us to overcome or defend against a melee proffession even if its half the time. I mean, gawd our flamethrower BARELY hit 33% of times before the flamer nerf days and it STILL got supernerfed to the mostly useless POS it is today. what if master (melee proff here) begin to complain about commandos hitting them TOO hard with a commando ranged weapon and them not being able to kill a commando because 'of that damn move'? You and I both know SOE caves in to the whining imbecile masses (proven by our flamer nerf and the defense stacking nerf), so i want to avoid us losing what we will get because of the unarmed4 requirement because idiots will whine about it in the future. And quote me on this, if it is indeed a melee move to help us against melee proffessions in any way, it WILL be whined upon and nerfed and we be back to square1.
"Some of our weapons could be getting AP3 for all you know...or for that matter, they could be removing AP from most weapons...Armor Piercing WILL be and act differenent post CU...that's why I keep telling people Commandos will have nothing to worry about in the AP market post CU..."
cool. all our weapons are ranged. so.. this nothing to do with unarmed4.
"but to condemn it now is like jumping into a pool before checking if it even has water in it...Personally, I think it's better to look before you leap..."
and I prefer to look at the other side of the pool before leaping. I completely understand what you're trying to say, i think you're failing to see what Im trying to say here. SOE has a PROVEN record of caving in to the whining masses and worse yet, have people like TH do half-assed ignorant tests (flamedotnerf+fireblanket came out of it remember that??). So:
Look over your docs and stuff, test in the alpha. see the changes through the eyes of the majority of the SWG players: whiny idiots that think their master crafter/healer/entertainer+halfassed dabbled combat templates should have a chance at killing a triple combat mastery player. Those are the ones that get things nerfed for those who DID take the time to understand the game mechanics and benefit from them.
Again, look at the combat stacking nerf. it was proven with hard data that marksmanbox4 could defeat DEFEAT the 200+ ranged defense of a superdefense stacker template just by buying an accuracy experimented weapon + use postures. But people just kept whining they couldnt spam highdamagespecial while running around instead... and the defense stacking GOT nerfed. Look at the flamer nerf... less than half the time the flamer would hit (and this is just peeps with flamer4 box who were the majority of commandos at the time) and people STILL whined about it. It got nerfed. Bad.
Now look at whatever we are getting in return for unarmed4. Anything that affects us in vs melee combat?... do you see the whiny idiots considering you overpowered because 50% or even 20% of the times you can use it to defeat them no matter what they have to use against you? (if so, again, quote me on this: it WILL be nerfed).
So i say i'd rather have my novicebrawler+unarmed box4 worth of skillpoints to spend how i see fit than to have a few cool skills that SOE will be taking away from me in the near future.
I hope im wrong.
tacwraith wrote:
im not basing any of my views on existing things garvin.
Quotes from you where you ARE basing your views on existing things:
- "even if we DO get fluff melee-type specials or abilities we should receive JUST for the fact that 90% of our weapons are MELEE RANGE" ...After the CU what if 90% of our weapons are NOT MELEE RAnge...what shoudl we get then?
- "Icould put those 29 skillpoints in another proffession and make up for the loss in defense by giving myself a variety of other skills (not neccessarily meaning getting defenses since that may be changed in CU.. im talking about being able to increase offensive power at the cost of those defenses by dabbling in other proffession's stuff)" ...What will that additional 29 pts get you in other professions? How do you know that no matter what tree of Brawler you take you won't techically be getting the same Commando "boosts"...the only benefit would be where you continue on too, and even then, you DON'T know what will be coming and whether it will work with Commando...
- "the way i see it, we are forced to go into melee range to use most of our weapons... so SOE thinks we need to be a hybrid to withstand melee."...This reasoning is based on Pre-CU thinking on the purpose behind the unarmed pre-req...you don't know what benefits/bonuses are planned via our Unarmed pre-req or how they will ENHANCE what will be within the Commando profession trees.
- "Its like, TKA finds a commando in his face, throws a punch, commando 'counters' the punch by blocking it then flames the TKA and runs away.. all the points the tka spent suddenly become worth jack because commando got an ability that lets him do this .. and even if its only HALF the time the ability works its still unfair to the tka." ...Do you know what TKA's are getting or how they will be different post-CU? You are saying that it will be unfair to the tka when you don't know HOW tka will be post-cu
I can cite many more quotes if you like where you are comparing apples to oranges...you ARE basing many of your objections based on how things are today...that last quote is the best example...saying it's unfair to tka when you don't even know what tka will be like post CU is my point...
I dont know if you've played dark age of camelot or not, but that game's combat system was based on attacks, counter attacks and counter-counter attacks as well as proffession specific abilities that enchanced the 3 (and that could also be countered and counter-countered with other abilities). Just saying this to illustrate where I come from with how i worry about the fluff stuff we may be getting because we have unarmed4.
Have you ever played City of Heroes...Do you know what happens when you use resurect yourself? You come up stunned and unable to attack or heal with a heavy loss of power which makes you vunerable for a short time to anyone close by you...I'm not saying this is how counters will work in the SWG system...but who knows at this point...oh wait...
"What if Commandos were MEANT to be a cross between a Melee and Range Profession...a sort of middle ground of all combat profession that specializes In combat"
If thats so, then why we are forced to take unarmed?. Why are we not given the choice of WHICH melee branch of brawler we want to use? You know, just like padawan requires 6 branches of ANY FS types, why not have commando be master marksman+1 brawler branch (any) ?
To be truthful...if I had to hazard a guess, it's a combination of what our Unarmed pre-req can lead too PLUS background story PLUS it's so big a deal to program in a way to let us pick and choose our pre-req...At least that's how it is now before the Combat Ugprade...Post Upgrade it goes on tomean many more things...The biggest issue would probably be the programming...If it was easy, they'd probably have already incorporated it in...
That would let those who would rather have pikeman/swordman/fencer to enchance their commando than tka not spend skillpoints on crap they wont use. Same reasoning why BH's were given back most of the scout branches worth of skillpoints: they didnt use them at all.
What if in the new system a Commando/Swordsman is HUGELY powerful...even more powerful then a Commando/TKA...that 29 points put into the Unarmed pre-req could be used to balance things a bit to allow a Commando/TKA to dabble a bit more then a Commando/Swordsman...
BH's, for the most part, were given back their skill points to band-aid a bigger issue...for their cost they were incredibly weak...instead of "balancing" BHs better, they gave them back the skill points to dabble with...if the CU weren't planned, I'd be all for getting our 29 points to do the same thing but we are getting balanced...so so that arguement becomes null...
"And what if, post CU, Melee Targets could no longer be kited to death...would that make any difference? Waht if Commandos included could no longer be kited to death without us having to dabble anything outside our own profession if we wanted to..."
i think its great. but then again, commandos aren't getting that because they have unarmed4 requirement are they? if you took away the unarmed4 requirement NOW we'd still be a proffession that gets kited just like a melee proffession and would still require to have such an anti-kiting ability. So i will discount this as an excuse to have unarmed4 pre-req.
Again...another example of Pre-CU based arguement...You don't know what the unarmed pre-req gives us or what abilities we'll have post-CU...you are saying that getting rid of the unarmed pre-req will help us be able to deal with kiting...but what if we don't need that help...what if we already have anti-kiting abilities...How do you know that if they took away our unarmed pre-req post CU, that we wouldn't lose some great way to deal with kiting? What if something was put into the unarmed tree specifically to help Commandos and TKA deal with kiters? What if instead of putting this ability or skill mod into 2 seperate professions, they decided to put it in a pre-req that both professions had in common...
"What if a Commando countering a TKA attack could then find a new TKA surprise to deal with then just being KD'd? Something else that could possibly prevent the Commando from hitting them everytime with the Commando Attacks...What if the Commando and the TKA had to be MORE strategic...and on that same note, what if the "Counter" costs a HUGE price to use meaning it could be used as a tactic by the TKA (force the Commando to use the Counter)? Would that make and difference in you thinking Melee Professions are getting screwed?"
i didnt say melee would get screwed. im saying that 1brawlerbranch+1 mastery should not be defeated in melee range by a melee type attack or counter by a class that has only 1 branch in melee (and a bunch of ranged weapons that fire at melee range for their specials but that still fire out to 64m without specials)
Who says that would be the outcome? Melee professions will still kick the most butt in Melee range just like Ranged professions will dominate range. You are going as far to assume that Commandos will still be considered a "Ranged" profession post CU...what if all of our skills worked best at 32m...the closer or farther we got from that distance the less effective we'd be...Again, not saying this is what's happening...just illustrating my point that you are assuming Melee professiosn will operate the same way they do now against post-CU ranged professions...
What if a Ranged opponent could only defend in Melee range? What if they couldn't attack until they got back out to farther then 16m...What if Ranged weapons were not very useful inside of 16m and therefore having access to Melee weapons would be good to have at the ready? And what ifa certain profession or two had the ability to control your whether you stay inside or outside of 16m range (and by dabbling that profession you could gain that ability)? There are so many possibilities that COULD happen with the CU and so much potential the Unarmed pre-req could or could not lead to that it's honestly impossible to make an opinion on whether it will be good or bad for Commandos post CU until you know what's coming...
"You seem to believe that Counters will hurt Melee types...you are not seeing the bigger picture...how do you know Melee types are getting certain counters as well...Trust me in this, Melee professions are NOT getting screwed...in fact, Melee types should be able to compete even better with Ranged types post CU...the winner in EVERY fight should go to the person who's strategy is better (which includes using certain template builds against other template builds and then knowing how to use what you have strategically)...A Melee Template should have a chance against a Ranged target if they PREPARED to eventaully fight ranged targets..."
Im all for that!
What if Commandos received an awfully nice accuracy boost and were capable of getting much more even with the 29 points spent on our unarmed pre-req? Something that will be key to the CU is seeing what each profession excels at and what they are weak against and then deciding whether or not to add that talent to your template...As I mentioned earlier, there could be something within the Commando trees that requires that we spend 29 pts in the unarmed pre-req...that if we spent those 29 points elsewhere, like in the fencer pre-req it could leave us with to many skill points left over after mastering Fencer leading to us being over-powered and NERF'ready...
You and I both know SOE caves in to the whining imbecile masses (proven by our flamer nerf and the defense stacking nerf), so i want to avoid us losing what we will get because of the unarmed4 requirement because idiots will whine about it in the future. And quote me on this, if it is indeed a melee move to help us against melee proffessions in any way, it WILL be whined upon and nerfed and we be back to square1.
Not always...especailly not from what I'm seeing over in the CU forums...SOE USED to cave to whining, ranting and flaming...but then a guy named SOETyrant came along...He's not shy about telling whiners "Not going to happen"...If his programmers and our Sandbox testers tell him that Commandos are balanced, he'll back us up...Since Tyrant has coming on board, haven't you noticed how things have picked up and an overall atmosphere change...
"Some of our weapons could be getting AP3 for all you know...or for that matter, they could be removing AP from most weapons...Armor Piercing WILL be and act differenent post CU...that's why I keep telling people Commandos will have nothing to worry about in the AP market post CU..."
cool. all our weapons are ranged. so.. this nothing to do with unarmed4.
Yes, but it also has nothing to do with any other profession or tree...there is nothing we could dabble post-CU to improve our AP abilities...so gaining AP wouldn't be an arguement for or against our Unarmed pre-req...
"but to condemn it now is like jumping into a pool before checking if it even has water in it...Personally, I think it's better to look before you leap..."
and I prefer to look at the other side of the pool before leaping. I completely understand what you're trying to say, i think you're failing to see what Im trying to say here. SOE has a PROVEN record of caving in to the whining masses and worse yet, have people like TH do half-assed ignorant tests (flamedotnerf+fireblanket came out of it remember that??). So:
Look over your docs and stuff, test in the alpha. see the changes through the eyes of the majority of the SWG players: whiny idiots that think their master crafter/healer/entertainer+halfassed dabbled combat templates should have a chance at killing a triple combat mastery player. Those are the ones that get things nerfed for those who DID take the time to understand the game mechanics and benefit from them.
Again, look at the combat stacking nerf. it was proven with hard data that marksmanbox4 could defeat DEFEAT the 200+ ranged defense of a superdefense stacker template just by buying an accuracy experimented weapon + use postures. But people just kept whining they couldnt spam highdamagespecial while running around instead... and the defense stacking GOT nerfed. Look at the flamer nerf... less than half the time the flamer would hit (and this is just peeps with flamer4 box who were the majority of commandos at the time) and people STILL whined about it. It got nerfed. Bad.
Now look at whatever we are getting in return for unarmed4. Anything that affects us in vs melee combat?... do you see the whiny idiots considering you overpowered because 50% or even 20% of the times you can use it to defeat them no matter what they have to use against you? (if so, again, quote me on this: it WILL be nerfed).
So i say i'd rather have my novicebrawler+unarmed box4 worth of skillpoints to spend how i see fit than to have a few cool skills that SOE will be taking away from me in the near future.
The key thing to that is techically you will be able to do just that...you just won't be able to unlock what Commando can give you...People upset by the unarmed pre-req, so much so that they NEED those 29 points will dabble elsewhere rather then Commando...Our Unarmed pre-req WILL work for us...It WILL give to us both externally and internally, more so then taking up any other Brawler tree...
I hope im wrong.
If you are not, as I've said repeatedly, we'll deal with that after the CU...for all everyone knows, you could be absolutely right and the Unarmed pre-req needs to go...but until give the Devs an opportunity to make the Unarmed pre-req worth-while, we are selling them and ourselves short...And before you say something like "They had their chance" or "They have a track record", think carefully what the CU is really about...it's not about making some fixes...it's about the Devs proving to us they have heard what we have been saying...it's their commitment to make the game fun again...and I'm giving them that chance...so far, from what I've seen (and now, what the Sandbox testers have seen), the Devs are off to a very good start...If they can make everything happen that they spell out in their docs, many of us will forget we even have an unarmed pre-req or that we ever thought about getting it changed...
If the Devs fail with that in anyway and the unarmed pre-req remains useless, we can then push to have it changed or removed...Doing that during the CU is a VERY VERY VERY bad idea...the Devs are working on a time table...they aren't going to change that time table for one profession otherwise they'd have to do it for all of them...if we push for programming in a way to let us choose our Melee pre-req, we cause them to have to "re-balance" some changes as well as risk losing something else they are building for us...Not something I personally want to risk...I'd rather see what comes of their plans and then push for any type of change when they move into the post CU profession revamp schedule...
garvin wrote:
Have you ever played City of Heroes...Do you know what happens when you use resurect yourself? You come up stunned and unable to attack or heal with a heavy loss of power which makes you vunerable for a short time to anyone close by you...I'm not saying this is how counters will work in the SWG system...but who knows at this point...oh wait...
tacwraith wrote:
aye its this hybrid flexibility thing that has me pissed at SOE. its pointless to be called a hybrid if you are forced into a specific thing to be hybrid WITH.
the way i see it, we are forced to go into melee range to use most of our weapons... so SOE thinks we need to be a hybrid to withstand melee.
Problem with that is, its not fair for pure melee types to have a ranged class (and commando IS a ranged class) who can either kite them or beat them up in melee half the time because they suddenly get special moves or countermoves that neutralize ALL of the melee player's skillpoint.
Its like, TKA finds a commando in his face, throws a punch, commando 'counters' the punch by blocking it then flames the TKA and runs away.. all the points the tka spent suddenly become worth jack because commando got an ability that lets him do this .. and even if its only HALF the time the ability works its still unfair to the tka.
OTH, if the commando is not forced to have any melee pre-reqs and thus not given 'fluff' melee abilities like the above mentioned, he could instead spend those points in something else.
i hope ill be let in the beta, but im very skeptic (no pun skept66!) about the overall impact of anything soe can give the commando as a 'reward' for such the idiotic point sink of unarmed4. id hate for it to be GOOD for a commando but unfair to other classes which will down the road get nerfed and nerfed to the point its almost useless and THEN we'll be stuck with the unarmed4 point sink and nothing gained for having it. Just like our flamethrower.. first it was useless, then it was good, then people 8itched and whined...then commando got nerfed with the 2.5x melee damage multiplier... then commando got un-nerfed by removal of 2.5x... only to be shortly after nerfed AGAIN by having its only working weapon neutered by the removal of dot-stacking and the dot-nerf plus the introduction of fire blankets and other items which deny the already underpowered AP0 flamer.
Without breaking the NDA let me ask if any of this would change your mind (and I'm not saying any of this is in the CU, just asking if it would sway you at all)...
What if Commandos were MEANT to be a cross between a Melee and Range Profession...a sort of middle ground of all combat profession that specializes In combat...
And what if, post CU, Melee Targets could no longer be kited to death...would that make any difference? Waht if Commandos included could no longer be kited to death without us having to dabble anything outside our own profession if we wanted to...
What if a Commando countering a TKA attack could then find a new TKA surprise to deal with then just being KD'd? Something else that could possibly prevent the Commando from hitting them everytime with the Commando Attacks...What if the Commando and the TKA had to be MORE strategic...and on that same note, what if the "Counter" costs a HUGE price to use meaning it could be used as a tactic by the TKA (force the Commando to use the Counter)? Would that make and difference in you thinking Melee Professions are getting screwed?
You seem to believe that Counters will hurt Melee types...you are not seeing the bigger picture...how do you know Melee types are getting certain counters as well...Trust me in this, Melee professions are NOT getting screwed...in fact, Melee types should be able to compete even better with Ranged types post CU...the winner in EVERY fight should go to the person who's strategy is better (which includes using certain template builds against other template builds and then knowing how to use what you have strategically)...A Melee Template should have a chance against a Ranged target if they PREPARED to eventaully fight ranged targets...
Some of our weapons could be getting AP3 for all you know...or for that matter, they could be removing AP from most weapons...Armor Piercing WILL be and act differenent post CU...that's why I keep telling people Commandos will have nothing to worry about in the AP market post CU...
So in reality, if the Devs are going to make thing more interesting between Melee and Ranged Professions, things could be extremely cool for a profession that finds a good niche inbetween both...
There are SO MANY variables you are not even considering that unfortunately I can't reveal...I keep trying to tell you that EVERYTHING is changing so you can't base your arguements on what currently exists...you are saying that Melee will get hurt by counters, but you don't know what Melee are getting...You are basing your arguements off of existing specials that may or may not exist as they do now after the CU...how do you know we'll still be limited to 16m after the CU...or for that matter, how do you know our range won't be reduced to 10m...For that matter, how do you know that Melee range isn't being increased or that ranged distance of 64m isn't being reduced...
There is way to muchburied in the CUto make any type of rational opinion on whether we need our Unarmed or Marksman Pre-reqs at this point...The first clue should be the fact that it takes several days for even the Sandbox testers to read and absorb what's coming in the docs...The changes coming are NOTjust profession tweaks...they are huge revamps of the entire combat system and how combat functions...it effects EVERY weapon, EVERY special, HAM, Armor, AP, Incapp & Death, Range, Counters, Healing, Buffs, Enhancements, etc...
Once the CU info is public and testing is coming to an end, we can revisit the issue of our Unarmed Pre-Req, but to condemn it now is like jumping into a pool before checking if it even has water in it...Personally, I think it's better to look before you leap...
Message Edited by garvin on 11-08-2004 12:44 PM