Commando Archive
Thread: TC Weapon Conversion MAKES ALL YOUR KRAYT FLAMETHROWER GARBAGE!
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Smoki
Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:03 pm
#1
Yes... from what I've seen this is true
PRE-CU Flamers with stats like 480-850 2.2 are converting to 560-1100 3.0
At first it looks okay, but then the weapon speed values start to bother you... then you do the math and realize that the dps and refire rate is severly crippled.
The conversion is doing this to everything, slightly increasing the damage values and massivly increasing the speed value to even out the equation and generalize the damage per second.
The problem with this... is commando's are limited in the amout of skill modifications we can get for our weapons, as such many of us have spent nearly 2 years making weapons with speed as a priority... even if we had master bh/master commando with a +25 heavy weapon speed mod CA these weapons would be firing off at 1.7sec refire, that is equal to the weapons on the frog
I personally worked long and hard to make the fastest weapon possible for my flamethrower, now it would appear that weapon speed is being totally neglected in the conversion and commandos are catching the brunt of this nerf in the form of useless weapons...
My pride and joy ingame is a [email protected] flamethrower made with exceptional components... should I expect to log on to find that my uniquely fast weapon is generally slow with generic damage mods?
I can't make this thing again, and I dont know if I can play the game without it now that I've gotten used to it... so, can we please push to have weapons speed not be the catalyst to the biggest nerf in SWG history.
-Smo'ki
Don't let the extremes control the issues, the majority of people aren't speaking up cause they don't have any real issues... the people who resort to acts of protest are the minority.
PRE-CU Flamers with stats like 480-850 2.2 are converting to 560-1100 3.0
At first it looks okay, but then the weapon speed values start to bother you... then you do the math and realize that the dps and refire rate is severly crippled.
The conversion is doing this to everything, slightly increasing the damage values and massivly increasing the speed value to even out the equation and generalize the damage per second.
The problem with this... is commando's are limited in the amout of skill modifications we can get for our weapons, as such many of us have spent nearly 2 years making weapons with speed as a priority... even if we had master bh/master commando with a +25 heavy weapon speed mod CA these weapons would be firing off at 1.7sec refire, that is equal to the weapons on the frog
I personally worked long and hard to make the fastest weapon possible for my flamethrower, now it would appear that weapon speed is being totally neglected in the conversion and commandos are catching the brunt of this nerf in the form of useless weapons...
My pride and joy ingame is a [email protected] flamethrower made with exceptional components... should I expect to log on to find that my uniquely fast weapon is generally slow with generic damage mods?
I can't make this thing again, and I dont know if I can play the game without it now that I've gotten used to it... so, can we please push to have weapons speed not be the catalyst to the biggest nerf in SWG history.
-Smo'ki
Don't let the extremes control the issues, the majority of people aren't speaking up cause they don't have any real issues... the people who resort to acts of protest are the minority.
garvin
Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:12 pm
#2
From what I've heard the conversion system is still a bit buggy...
But also remember that the Devs have made it clear that our current "enhanced" weapons won't be AS GOOD as they arecurrently as they will be in the Post CU. They will take a hit. What the Devs have said to that effect is that they will be "comparable" to other weapons out there in that, if you had the BEST Krayt FT pre-CU, you'll still have the BEST Plasma FT post-CU.
Same with armor and everything else. They won't be AS GOOD, but they will still rate in the level it was pre-CU (if your item was even top 10 for being great comparatively on the server, it will still be in that same rank area).
So we need to make sure that we focus on comparisons between crafted weapons vs. our converted weapons Post CU, and not how our weapons compare Pre-CU to Post-CU...
And hopefully, if we get things balanced right, a kick butt weapon pre-CUwill still be a kick butt weapon post-CU....
Smoki
Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:33 pm
#3
Well, It just seems to me that weapon speed was totally forgotten in the conversion, People are having 2.5 speed exceptional T21's come out to 3.1 post balance...
I dont have any issue with all weapons being brought into balance for the good of the game... but good god do it properly, if a weapon was superfast pre-CU and cant retain the damage stats I understand...
But why would that situation warrent having the damage slightly increase and the speed totally nerfed to hell,
ANYONE out there with a 2.0 or better flamethrower WILL log on May 6th to find their weapons are SLOWER then a new weapon made with far inferior enhamcments to what they used on their pre CU...
THEY ARE USING WEAPON SPEED TO GENERALIZE DPS, ELITE PVP COMMANDOS PRE-CU MADE WEAPONS WITH SPEED AS A PRIORITY AND NOW ALL THOSE WEAPONS WILL LOSE THEIR UNIQUNESS, Becoming slow and powerful like everything else that gets "converted".
I'll cancel my account before I destroy my legendary flamethrower, I'm not saying it should retain its 900-100/dps I'm saying it should retain its individuality and not become slightly slower and more powerful then base crafted when it was faster and less powerful pre-CU
If this goes live im gonna feel very let down by the correspondant community... you guys NEED to push for a balance of speed/damage being converted properly, even if it means nerfing damage to maintain speed.
I think everyone knows they are pushing this thing out with not even close to enough time to do it properly, But certain things cannot stand... this being one of them.
I dont have any issue with all weapons being brought into balance for the good of the game... but good god do it properly, if a weapon was superfast pre-CU and cant retain the damage stats I understand...
But why would that situation warrent having the damage slightly increase and the speed totally nerfed to hell,
ANYONE out there with a 2.0 or better flamethrower WILL log on May 6th to find their weapons are SLOWER then a new weapon made with far inferior enhamcments to what they used on their pre CU...
THEY ARE USING WEAPON SPEED TO GENERALIZE DPS, ELITE PVP COMMANDOS PRE-CU MADE WEAPONS WITH SPEED AS A PRIORITY AND NOW ALL THOSE WEAPONS WILL LOSE THEIR UNIQUNESS, Becoming slow and powerful like everything else that gets "converted".
I'll cancel my account before I destroy my legendary flamethrower, I'm not saying it should retain its 900-100/dps I'm saying it should retain its individuality and not become slightly slower and more powerful then base crafted when it was faster and less powerful pre-CU
If this goes live im gonna feel very let down by the correspondant community... you guys NEED to push for a balance of speed/damage being converted properly, even if it means nerfing damage to maintain speed.
I think everyone knows they are pushing this thing out with not even close to enough time to do it properly, But certain things cannot stand... this being one of them.
StarNick
Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:38 pm
#4
Well the problem is, we've been testing with 2.0, 2.25, 2.5, and 2.8 speed weapons...thats not an entirely good thing to test with if our enhanced weapons on live come out to 2-3 speed 
My testing was cut short, as I was still missing quite a bit of speed...but my good flamer, came out to be somewhere around 2.4-2.6 speed, with my mods. Im guessing if I had my entire template it would come out somewhere around 2.0.
The funny thing though, that was krayted. My RL that converted (also only weapon that I was able to fire), had higher DPS - with less speed mods - than the frog's generic RL.
Similar, but unconfirmed, observation on my other weapons. So, currently I think the system is bugged for the enhanced weaponry...somehow maybe thinking that the enhancements are suppoused to detract rather than improve the weapon? We'll have to wait and see...
Edit: Btw...DPS isn't exactly always accurate. Its estimated on the weapon. Take my Proton Rifle on TC for example, its 407 dps. But after testing, I was getting around 505 DPS. Every improved leg shot was about 1846 damage and @ every 3.6 seconds (estimated). Although this is 512 DPS, in a span of 22 seconds I managed to shoot off 6 specials of the same damage (or abouts), which averaged around 505.
My testing was cut short, as I was still missing quite a bit of speed...but my good flamer, came out to be somewhere around 2.4-2.6 speed, with my mods. Im guessing if I had my entire template it would come out somewhere around 2.0.
The funny thing though, that was krayted. My RL that converted (also only weapon that I was able to fire), had higher DPS - with less speed mods - than the frog's generic RL.
Similar, but unconfirmed, observation on my other weapons. So, currently I think the system is bugged for the enhanced weaponry...somehow maybe thinking that the enhancements are suppoused to detract rather than improve the weapon? We'll have to wait and see...
Edit: Btw...DPS isn't exactly always accurate. Its estimated on the weapon. Take my Proton Rifle on TC for example, its 407 dps. But after testing, I was getting around 505 DPS. Every improved leg shot was about 1846 damage and @ every 3.6 seconds (estimated). Although this is 512 DPS, in a span of 22 seconds I managed to shoot off 6 specials of the same damage (or abouts), which averaged around 505.
Message Edited by StarNick on 04-19-2005 07:40 PM
Smoki
Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:55 pm
#5
My point is that on conversion day as things stand,
a [email protected] flamethrower will likely not be as good as a [email protected]
Anyone will tell you that the 2.0 speed flamer would be more valued in the current system, so that takes all that wonderful bs that the devs said about weapons "retaining" their power and puts it in the toilet. They are changing the value of specific mods... weapons that before were all about damage like rifles or swords are fine under this... however commando weapons are a lil bit different and as such need to be treated differently.
All I see is speculation from you guys
2 years of effort on behalf of the player community is worth more then the effort you have put into making sure all out hard work is justified. And so I challenge you,
Get the dev's to mock convert a couple imaginary weapons for the sake of the community as a whole.
480-900 @ 2.0 flamethrower = ? post conversion
600-1200 @ 4.0 = ? post conversion
I would bet ALL my credits that the speedy flamer gets the short end of the stick... and so is this to mean that:
Weapons that were ther most powerful on the server before the CU, Will be as powerful after the CU, but comparitivly to other weapons crafted after the balance, they will be garbage because we made a conversion system that generalizes all damage stats and uses speed to bring them in line with the norm.
It's a good thing you guys got the plasma flamer added... I imagine alot of commandos will roll over for the dev's on this one. Might not have been so easy for them to screw us over on both damage AND speed...
People say alot about the CU, I personally like it... makes the game alot more fun, what I dont find fun is that they are taking all my work from the past 2 years and nerfing it into line with crafted generic un-rare items because the balance of all exceptional/legendary items is "beyond the scope of the CU"
a [email protected] flamethrower will likely not be as good as a [email protected]
Anyone will tell you that the 2.0 speed flamer would be more valued in the current system, so that takes all that wonderful bs that the devs said about weapons "retaining" their power and puts it in the toilet. They are changing the value of specific mods... weapons that before were all about damage like rifles or swords are fine under this... however commando weapons are a lil bit different and as such need to be treated differently.
All I see is speculation from you guys
2 years of effort on behalf of the player community is worth more then the effort you have put into making sure all out hard work is justified. And so I challenge you,
Get the dev's to mock convert a couple imaginary weapons for the sake of the community as a whole.
480-900 @ 2.0 flamethrower = ? post conversion
600-1200 @ 4.0 = ? post conversion
I would bet ALL my credits that the speedy flamer gets the short end of the stick... and so is this to mean that:
Weapons that were ther most powerful on the server before the CU, Will be as powerful after the CU, but comparitivly to other weapons crafted after the balance, they will be garbage because we made a conversion system that generalizes all damage stats and uses speed to bring them in line with the norm.
It's a good thing you guys got the plasma flamer added... I imagine alot of commandos will roll over for the dev's on this one. Might not have been so easy for them to screw us over on both damage AND speed...
People say alot about the CU, I personally like it... makes the game alot more fun, what I dont find fun is that they are taking all my work from the past 2 years and nerfing it into line with crafted generic un-rare items because the balance of all exceptional/legendary items is "beyond the scope of the CU"
StarNick
Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:00 pm
#6
"All I see is speculation from you guys
2 years of effort on behalf of the player community is worth more then the effort you have put into making sure all out hard work is justified. And so I challenge you,"
Chilastra is my home server, and it was up a very short time. In fact, because of the respec system I couldn't see how my full template would affect my weapons (so I can compare to TC-Ep3). Valcyn's coming up, which Im familar with and have (and can make) some great weapons there...so Ill be able to get an eye on some of the enhanced weaponry. Also, garvin should get a chance to see how the conversion will affect his weapons...and give us a full report
2 years of effort on behalf of the player community is worth more then the effort you have put into making sure all out hard work is justified. And so I challenge you,"
Chilastra is my home server, and it was up a very short time. In fact, because of the respec system I couldn't see how my full template would affect my weapons (so I can compare to TC-Ep3). Valcyn's coming up, which Im familar with and have (and can make) some great weapons there...so Ill be able to get an eye on some of the enhanced weaponry. Also, garvin should get a chance to see how the conversion will affect his weapons...and give us a full report
Smoki
Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:40 pm
#7
I look forward to those reports...
All I see is a revised crafting system that splits damage and speed into seperate catagories. In the long run I believe weapons will be crafted for the user more then the weapon type.
As things are shaping up I find it hard to believe that the fastest of our pre-CU weapons will compare to the fastest craftable post CU...
As for final template testing, +25 heavy weapons speed worn by a master commando / bounty hunter will return +130 speed mods... as such a person of this template will need to have a 2.3 or faster weapon to acheieve the 1.0 refire rate.
My concern is that this will be relativly easily obtained post CU thru crafting with speed in mind ( both thru experimentation and the use of "fast" krayt tissues, form-fitted stocks etc. ), however the conversion will totally ignore it and all pre CU flamethrower will end up slow and powerful, where these atributes were NOT the case pre conversion...
So when you run your tests figure this one out,
- What does it take to make a 2.3 speed plasma flamethrower? Krayt tissues with -1.5 speed mods? more? FFStocks? looted barrles?
- What does it take for a pre-CU flamethrower to convert to 2.3 ?
( The second is a trick question, cause as I mentioned above, speed seems to be totally igrnored in convert. )
-Smo'ki
All I see is a revised crafting system that splits damage and speed into seperate catagories. In the long run I believe weapons will be crafted for the user more then the weapon type.
As things are shaping up I find it hard to believe that the fastest of our pre-CU weapons will compare to the fastest craftable post CU...
As for final template testing, +25 heavy weapons speed worn by a master commando / bounty hunter will return +130 speed mods... as such a person of this template will need to have a 2.3 or faster weapon to acheieve the 1.0 refire rate.
My concern is that this will be relativly easily obtained post CU thru crafting with speed in mind ( both thru experimentation and the use of "fast" krayt tissues, form-fitted stocks etc. ), however the conversion will totally ignore it and all pre CU flamethrower will end up slow and powerful, where these atributes were NOT the case pre conversion...
So when you run your tests figure this one out,
- What does it take to make a 2.3 speed plasma flamethrower? Krayt tissues with -1.5 speed mods? more? FFStocks? looted barrles?
- What does it take for a pre-CU flamethrower to convert to 2.3 ?
( The second is a trick question, cause as I mentioned above, speed seems to be totally igrnored in convert. )
-Smo'ki
Message Edited by Smoki on 04-19-2005 07:36 PM
Shinky
Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:59 pm
#9
if it wasn't said yet, you better think a little bit. DPS on a Plamsa FT is 278. Yours is 336. no one else but one of your caliber will own a 336dps FT, be glad. You have way beyond any of the highest dps weapons in game. /puke
Message Edited by Shinky on 04-19-2005 07:03 PM
worpete
Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:01 pm
#10
swordman has a similar problem, with the best weapons being slightly better than just the average ones in the CU
some reading done here
so what happens to the legendary weapons that were way out there? now they will be 10-20 points better!
StarNick
Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:03 pm
#11
Aside from conversion, they should definately have an option that would allow us to "dissamble" enhanced weapons. I believe its happening for RIS...could work for all the krayt stuff and Gorax as well.
Just need to balance those loot drops, and then get a WS to craft you a new weapon in the new system.
Just need to balance those loot drops, and then get a WS to craft you a new weapon in the new system.
Smoki
Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:13 pm
#13
Hit the thingy to soon sorry for the double post...
Shinky, im confused as to what you mean... please explain in more detail as I'm not sure what you mean in reference to those dps figures. I'm tryin to guage what commandos will need to operate at a extremely fast pace of combat... and what/why/how the conversion is dealing with weapon speed, since ( and I'll admit its still early in testing ) it would strike me that weapon speeds are getting totally ignored and weapon damage is the only thing getting converted with any type of modifier granted.
P.S. ty for editing out the part about me being a retard lol, although ims till confused as to what makes you think anything I said was that incorrect from all the evidence being presented from the conversion servers.
AND
As for that weapon break down idea... Best thing ive heard all day we should realy push for that. Although it would leave serveral other professions out in the cold when it comes to looted weapons. And I believe we find ourselves where we are because someone neglected to think of our weapons when designing the system for weapon conversion.
I hope there is something that can be done to save our weapons.
-Smo'ki
Shinky, im confused as to what you mean... please explain in more detail as I'm not sure what you mean in reference to those dps figures. I'm tryin to guage what commandos will need to operate at a extremely fast pace of combat... and what/why/how the conversion is dealing with weapon speed, since ( and I'll admit its still early in testing ) it would strike me that weapon speeds are getting totally ignored and weapon damage is the only thing getting converted with any type of modifier granted.
P.S. ty for editing out the part about me being a retard lol, although ims till confused as to what makes you think anything I said was that incorrect from all the evidence being presented from the conversion servers.
AND
As for that weapon break down idea... Best thing ive heard all day we should realy push for that. Although it would leave serveral other professions out in the cold when it comes to looted weapons. And I believe we find ourselves where we are because someone neglected to think of our weapons when designing the system for weapon conversion.
I hope there is something that can be done to save our weapons.
-Smo'ki
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