Commando Archive
Thread: Why the CRAP don't Commandos use Proton Grenades (or any grenades??)???
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Bacon00
Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:33 pm
#1
So I decided to make some rocket launchers for my guild incase we ever do another base takedown. So I had to make some proton grenades. And, WHAT THE CRAP, the stats on those things are NUTS. 5.9 speed, 3111 max damage (can't remember minimum). Now, I know that the range may not be the best and you may miss often, but don't they like, OBLITERATE anything that they actually do hit?? You could miss 4 times in a row and then get a hit, and you'd do more damage in that time period than you would with a flame thrower.
Anyway, I was just curious as to why grenades aren't more popular, because these proton grenades' stats point to "totally badass" instead of "useless crap that nobody wants."
Is it just that they are hard to find and expensive, so they aren't worth the cost and time?
Vagrantprodigy
Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:44 pm
#2
They are expensive, miss too often, and really don't do that much damage. 3111 isn't much when you consider that a flamethrower does around 1k default attack, and you can do several in the same amount of time you can throw a grenade, without the ham costs, or the chance of the grenade hurting you.
Bacon00
Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:48 pm
#3
But you can slice the grenades!! The damage might be insane w/ a good slice.I dunno, it just seems like a waste that nobody uses em. Even in PvP they're useless?
garvin
Thu Aug 05, 2004 9:14 pm
#4
The best reason NOT to use a grenades is YES, they will do a lot of damage to your target, but they have a VERY good chance of doing the SAME damage to the user PLUS the user takes a heavy HAM cost to boot...That's why we call them Suicide Bombs...A Good many Commandos, including myself, have incapped ourselves using our own grenades...
Bacon00
Thu Aug 05, 2004 9:21 pm
#5
ah, well that's a bunch of crap. They should just remove the ability for them to damage the user, and then I bet they'd be a hell of a lot more useful. HAM costs are negated by buffs, anyway. Most people don't care about HAM anymore.I just read your correspondent issues, and I see that that is one of them. Hopefully the devs listen and fix that, because as a WS I'd LOVE to have an item like grenades to make that people would actually buy and have a high demand for. Guns are good, but it'd be awesome to have a weapon to make that is limited-use like grenades.
garvin
Thu Aug 05, 2004 9:44 pm
#6
Bacon00 wrote:
ah, well that's a bunch of crap. They should just remove the ability for them to damage the user, and then I bet they'd be a hell of a lot more useful. HAM costs are negated by buffs, anyway. Most people don't care about HAM anymore.I just read your correspondent issues, and I see that that is one of them. Hopefully the devs listen and fix that, because as a WS I'd LOVE to have an item like grenades to make that people would actually buy and have a high demand for. Guns are good, but it'd be awesome to have a weapon to make that is limited-use like grenades.
BINGO...That's one of my primary goals...ESPECIALLY since bomb droids are puposefully set not to damage the user (Smuggler or BH) when caught in the blast...and for that matter, when is the last time you saw a CM Poison or Disease themselves...
With all the other "thrown weapons" or "exploding items" in game that don't damage the user, this makes me fairly confident that our Grenades are BUGGED!!! or at least that is the arguement I use...
How about this for an idea my fellow commandos **insert evil grin here**...From now on, anytime any of us get's damaged by our own grenade...submit a /bug report...in the report explain that our grenades are incorrectly damaging the user and it must be a bug since Bomb Droids (which are practically homing missles) don't damage the user...
I SAY /BUG IT....
Dizzey
Thu Aug 05, 2004 10:29 pm
#7
There's a lot of poor information going on here.. as a master weaponsmith and 4/0/0/0 commando, I have tested grenades a LOT (pvp and PVE).
First... decent thermal detonators, in PVE, easily inflict 5,000 + damage thanks to many creatures... and I can throw them every 1.5 seconds... that's a LOT faster than flamethrower specials.I made protons for master commandos and they reported landing hits easily of 4-6k (light armor piercing only.. oddly enough, I think thermal detonators are better due to medium armor piercing).
Second. The "accuracy problem" is just ignorance.. it holds no water. The problem is most idiots are trying to throw them at 30 or more meters where the grenades have no hope in hell of hitting. Try tossing them at 12m (and get to at least box 4 in grenades so your accuracy is respectable... the first two boxes in grenade skill are useless for accuracy). I hit 85% or more of the time when throwing at about 12-15m (and no splash damage to self at that range).
Third: are you people not buffed or wearing armor when throwing these at point blank?? With full composite I usually only take about 200-400 or so damage to myself .. easily corrected with a stim B... even then, I dont use them much at point blank.. I just run, get to about 12m as they chase, then toss.. seems to work fine for me and I dont hit myself.
Fourth: Thermal detonators are quite effective in group battle pvp (not too great in 1 v 1.. but inan overt battle with team mates, you just toss at people who arent too far or too close... lots of opportunity to do so). My thermals often hit for around 400 dmg or so to people in full composite, and I can toss them very very fast (1.5 seconds about).
Fifth: HAM cost? What are you people doing, throwing these without buffs?? My HAM doesn't even budge when I toss grenades (then again, I dont usually wear a full suit of armor, just helmet, chest armor and leg armor.. arms, hands and feet barely ever get hit).
garvin
Thu Aug 05, 2004 11:04 pm
#8
Dizzey wrote:
There's a lot of poor information going on here.. as a master weaponsmith and 4/0/0/0 commando, I have tested grenades a LOT (pvp and PVE).
So have I...I've tested Every Single Grenade in game and I try to do it at least once a month (every type of grenade)...I've used them in many different circumstances both PvP and PvE...I've tested them inside and outside (since recently they were made to work inside)...And I've come to ONE conclusion...They are best used to start a fight or when someone or something is tanking for you...if it's just you and your target, you very much risk incapp'ing yourself, or at the very least, seriously damaging yourself by using a Grenade...the more power the grenade, the bigger the risk...
First... decent thermal detonators, in PVE, easily inflict 5,000 + damage thanks to many creatures... and I can throw them every 1.5 seconds... that's a LOT faster than flamethrower specials.I made protons for master commandos and they reported landing hits easily of 4-6k (light armor piercing only.. oddly enough, I think thermal detonators are better due to medium armor piercing).
Second. The "accuracy problem" is just ignorance.. it holds no water. The problem is most idiots are trying to throw them at 30 or more meters where the grenades have no hope in hell of hitting. Try tossing them at 12m (and get to at least box 4 in grenades so your accuracy is respectable... the first two boxes in grenade skill are useless for accuracy). I hit 85% or more of the time when throwing at about 12-15m (and no splash damage to self at that range).
This doesn't hold water...I'm sorry...Doesn't matter when you click to throw a grenade...because of the lag and the delay pre-throw, if your target is aggro'd they often run TOWARDS you...if your target starts to run towards you as you throw you grenade and they get you into the blast radius, YOU WILL TAKE DAMAGE...it doesn't matter then when you initially tried to throw that you were outside the radius...it's all about where they are when it hits...Besides...As a WS, have you ever examined the ideal range on some of the grenades...look at the ideal range, then look at the radius...now explain why some of them have ideal ranges that are INSIDE the radius...Also...why would I throw a grenade at 12m when that would put me just aboutwithin the blast radius for some grenades (some can even have an actual radius of 12m or more)? Depending on what Grenade type you are using, you are just asking to hurt yourself...I'm afraid that is very bad advice...
Third: are you people not buffed or wearing armor when throwing these at point blank?? With full composite I usually only take about 200-400 or so damage to myself .. easily corrected with a stim B... even then, I dont use them much at point blank.. I just run, get to about 12m as they chase, then toss.. seems to work fine for me and I dont hit myself.
SO...a Rifleman MUST be buff'd when they use their rifles...A Bounty Hunter needs ot be buff'd when they use a Bomb Droid? Are you actually saying that a Commando should be buff'd if they want to use their Grenades? I'm sorry, but that's a silly justification for "grenades being ok"...Doesn't it sound weird to you to say "Hey, there are nothing wrong with your Grenades, now go get buff'd, put some good Composite on, grab a bunch of stims, and then go use your Grenades...if you don't do all that, you are just asking to die..." Does't that statement alone tell you that something is really messed up here...
Fourth: Thermal detonators are quite effective in group battle pvp (not too great in 1 v 1.. but inan overt battle with team mates, you just toss at people who arent too far or too close... lots of opportunity to do so). My thermals often hit for around 400 dmg or so to people in full composite, and I can toss them very very fast (1.5 seconds about).
Good in Group...Bad in 1 on 1...kinda what most of us have been saying...Sure, when you have someone or something tanking for you, there typically is only the HAM cost to worry about...it's when you don't and you have to worry about the HAM cost PLUS the Damage that the problem arises...Most Commandos avoid PvP because of other issues with our profession...and in groups we are often out damaged (plus I typically get complaints that the explosions of grenades and RL cause to much Lag in a group)...Many Commandos play mainly solo PvE, and thus, that's why we say that Grenades are only SPECIAL CASE weapons, as well as severely bug'd when you break down their issues and compare them to other ingame weapons...
Fifth: HAM cost? What are you people doing, throwing these without buffs?? My HAM doesn't even budge when I toss grenades (then again, I dont usually wear a full suit of armor, just helmet, chest armor and leg armor.. arms, hands and feet barely ever get hit).
AGAIN, tell me what weapon in game REQUIRES people to be Buff'd to use...We shouldn't have to be Buff'd to use our weapon...Have you actually broken down the HAM cost in comparison with the damage capability? If you actually did and then compared it to other weapons/specials in the game you'll see just how out of whack the HAM cost is...THIS IS EXACTLY why TH has told us SPECIFICALLY that the issue with our Grenade cost will be adjusted with the Combat Revamp...BECAUSE it's out of whack...
I don't mean to sound like I'm flaming you or telling you that you are wrong...but doesn't it seem kind of silly to come into a forum full of folks who use Grenades more then any other Profession out there and who are more familiar with the issues of our Grenades and tell them that they are imagining the issues...like none of us have done lengthy testing of our own repeatedly since the game began....And then to excuse the issues with the Grenades by saying that we should be Buff'd to use them...doesn't that sound a bit bad?
Message Edited by garvin on 08-05-2004 11:09 PM
StarNick
Thu Aug 05, 2004 11:16 pm
#9
Bacon wrote:
You could miss 4 times in a row and then get a hit, and you'd do more damage in that time period than you would with a flame thrower.
Ok this is a new thread, haven't read the replies (saw garvin's HUGE reply and wanted to save that for a few mins from now..)
But I must comment on this statement....
1) Unbuffed, 4 gernade throws can kill a lesser man...nearly 100 ham (est) per toss.....true very rarely ppl go unbuffed...but what happens when buffs are made weaker?
2) The max Ive ever done in PvP with protons, id say..oh around 600 or so dmg....and like all gernades, they're rather slow...usually in PvP i either miss or hit very low...as to usually hit for the fullest amount of damage, you need a better accuracy (higher it is, most likely you'll hit..and most likely you'll do the best possible damage)
In some cases, unbuffed PvP...gernades are lethal...we are lethal in unbuffed PvP....sadly thats not how PvP works. Also in other cases...especially verse jedi...protons hit for like 300 dmg (id definately say the average is 300-600 in PvP... for those gernades id say maybe up to 800-1k MAX). But then again, accuracy comes into play, and you will miss quite a bit. And worse yet, if its a guy running at you...you have better chance of hitting yourself....
Do not let high dmg make you think it's badass....gernades atm are fairly weak...especially in PvE....why? Accuracy and speed....if you're going to do 3k heat dmg w/ AP in 6 seconds....meanwhile Ive done 6.6k Ap 2 Blast dmg in 2-3 seconds on TestCenter with a Power hammer. Meanwhile even on my flamer I can outdamage this...
Low DPS...all it comes out to....Gernades/Disposables are strong in dmg/AP but sorelly lacking in DPS...as they are not accurate, nor are they fast.
Also a guy on my server charges 11k PER STACK for protons...this is very high...but generally its a few thousand per stack for good ones...as they take MANY components as well as many factory runs to produce....and its a limited crowd....
StarNick
Thu Aug 05, 2004 11:28 pm
#10
Mighty Garvin wrote (and replied):
Second. The "accuracy problem" is just ignorance.. it holds no water. The problem is most idiots are trying to throw them at 30 or more meters where the grenades have no hope in hell of hitting. Try tossing them at 12m (and get to at least box 4 in grenades so your accuracy is respectable... the first two boxes in grenade skill are useless for accuracy). I hit 85% or more of the time when throwing at about 12-15m (and no splash damage to self at that range).
This doesn't hold water...I'm sorry...Doesn't matter when you click to throw a grenade...because of the lag and the delay pre-throw, if your target is aggro'd they often run TOWARDS you...if your target starts to run towards you as you throw you grenade and they get you into the blast radius, YOU WILL TAKE DAMAGE...it doesn't matter then when you initially tried to throw that you were outside the radius...it's all about where they are when it hits...Besides...As a WS, have you ever examined the ideal range on some of the grenades...look at the ideal range, then look at the radius...now explain why some of them have ideal ranges that are INSIDE the radius...Also...why would I throw a grenade at 12m when that would put me just aboutwithin the blast radius for some grenades (some can even have an actual radius of 12m or more)? Depending on what Grenade type you are using, you are just asking to hurt yourself...I'm afraid that is very bad advice...
Just want to add something here...as well as something in the paragraph you answered below:
1) Ive been hit with splash damage even outside blast radius...using protons that had 10 ideal...stood approx 14 m...got incapped by it (missed target)
This was either due to a bug, or lag...why do you think meleers can hit up to 20 m or so with lunge? its because of lag...they gave meleers an extra edge so it wouldnt be impossible to posture change/fight a ranged guy...
And on this note...why should we be no different? why should ideal be nearly inside (or in some cases, inside) the blast radius? Im always missing with gernades, and always try to be no more than 15-20 m from my target....the target moving also affects accuracy...which frequently happens and if I may; bomb droids have 100% accuracy, nades dont. You shouldn't be getting 85% accuracy...should be 100% accuracy...(this is also in reference to another of garvin's answers...)
2) In the next statement + rebuttal, you said that a stim will solve any ham costs even on buffed players w/ full suit of composite ..... ahem...why should Commandos require to become a medic to use their weapons? This is the same as why should TKMs/MRs be required to buff to use their specials. Its outa whack....just like our gernades...
Feixeno356
Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:52 am
#11
*sigh* why couldnt they just do a quick coding job and fix this. I mean how hard could it be? really. I know coding isnt a easy job, but..I mean come on.
heck. why couldnt they just do a quick coding job for the whole commando profession. up the %'s on accuracy a little bit, up the % on speed at master a little bit, lower the numbers on HAM cost for AR, hell the whole commando profession just needs change in freaking numbers and percents.
heck. why couldnt they just do a quick coding job for the whole commando profession. up the %'s on accuracy a little bit, up the % on speed at master a little bit, lower the numbers on HAM cost for AR, hell the whole commando profession just needs change in freaking numbers and percents.
Warmaker01
Fri Aug 06, 2004 5:26 am
#12
Sorry Dizzey, but if a profession requires buffs to use any of their specials, then there's something wrong. Commandos using grenades is our first example. Can you also say Carbineers (even with "low HAM" carbines)? Use these weapons/specials, you will be doing your opponent a favor by killing your own HAMs.
The damage stats on grenades seem great, but when I kill myself from my own grenades via HAM costs and my own blast radius, and not to mention the accuracy, makes it a great reason to not use them. Also, they're expensive as hell.
"If they can be fooled, they can be killed."
Warmaker01
Fri Aug 06, 2004 5:27 am
#13
Let me add that a Combat Medic is better at "throwing weapons" than we are. They have one hell of an arm, don't they? Accurate as hell, too.
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