Commando Archive

Thread: Why the CRAP don't Commandos use Proton Grenades (or any grenades??)???

Dizzey
Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:42 am
#14
I understand the notion behind how commandos "shouldn't need" buffs to use their weapons.... but let's actually be realistic now... with 95% or more of the game population fighting with buffs, it is unreasonable to expect your profession to be able to steadily use all their weapons unbuffed in a pratical manner.... let's face it, if you're in pvp unbuffed vs other pvpers who are buffed, you are clearly lacking in sensibility.


Ever tried firing carbine specials as a carbineer without buffs? Those folks can kill themselves fast with their own specials without buffs - we're not he only one's with this HAM problem when not using buffs.


Reality says you will almost always be engaging an enemy while buffed.. PVE or pvp... anybody who actually expects that their character should be able to go hunt rancors and use all their specials while unbuffed is an idiot.... same in pvp. The reality is we need buffs to use grenades.... all the bitching in the world won't change that fact until SOE redesigns our weapon....


So accept reality and get buffs if you expect to be able to use grenades.


Also.. I am confused by you people and your complaints about grenade speed.... how is it that you are throwing them so slow (some have said 6 seconds???) Ok sure.. at novice or only Advanced Tactics, sure, I can see that... but at Master Tactics and Master Commando you should be able to throw decently-made grendaes every 1.5 seconds....


The grenades I build have about a 3.2 speed on them... after throw speed modifers that is cut in half.... I dunno about you but my flamethrower sepcials take at least 5-6 seconds to fire (level 1 flamethrower only)... sure it hits for 5k damage often or more, but in that time I can throw 2-3 thermal detonators at monsters that each do 4k or more damage.


I still firmly disagree with you people regarding accuracy... I miss less than 20% of the time with my grenades.... What range are you all throwing at?? Are you using novice tactics still?? You need Master Tactics to have good accuracy.... and DON'T throw if the enemy is further tham 18m or so.... I've tossed hundreds and hundreds of my own self-made thermal detonators and I barely ever miss, evenagainst a moving target...are you people actually trying these grenades and seeing misses or are you lying and just claiming they miss??


I am seldom ever missing - pve or pvp.
garvin
Fri Aug 06, 2004 8:48 am
#15




Dizzey wrote:

I still firmly disagree with you people regarding accuracy... I miss less than 20% of the time with my grenades.... What range are you all throwing at?? Are you using novice tactics still?? You need Master Tactics to have good accuracy.... and DON'T throw if the enemy is further tham 18m or so.... I've tossed hundreds and hundreds of my own self-made thermal detonators and I barely ever miss, evenagainst a moving target...are you people actually trying these grenades and seeing misses or are you lying and just claiming they miss??


I am seldom ever missing - pve or pvp.




I think the part that you are missing, at least my biggest complaint about grenades, is not the MISSING, but actually the HITTING...For me, missing is missing...we are a poor accuracy profession...we miss a lot with our various weapons...and Grenades may have better accuracy then some of our other weapons (especially if you use looted skill mods to help out)...that I can deal with...It's when we hit and get caught in the damage radius...It's very easy to do and is often greater (thanks to lag and such) then what is reported on the grenade...PLUS, if the target is moving, the Grenade often times follows them in and catches the user with the damage.


This is why Most commandos don't use Grenades...think about it...we have our opponents doing us damage...By us using a weapons that is capable of doing us high HAM costs PLUS Damage we are effectively helping our opponent...they only take the damage from the grenade...we take the damage and the HAM cost...Even if we are buff'd and can offset some of that damage+HAM cost, our opponent can offset the damage as well...and if it's an NPC who can now use specials, often times they can seriously take advantage of our down time while trying to heal...


Did you catch that when the Devs added Bomb Droids to the game they went out of their way to stress that "The user will NOT take any damage if caught in the blast radius"...right there that should tell you that our Grenades are bugged...


Grenades have their useful times, but like most of our weapons, they are SPECIAL situation use weapons...and in this case, meant currently to be used against a stationary target...a moving target WILL get the Commando seriously hurt by his own Grenade...





Garvin Lansdowne
Retired Commando Correspondent - Current Blue Glowie
Master Commando / TKM || Architect / Shipwright / Master Droidsmith
ShadowStyrkeGuild.com: A WoW Guild Website

meeuki
Fri Aug 06, 2004 8:50 am
#16
he said it better than i did.



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Draconicius
Fri Aug 06, 2004 9:15 am
#17

Hi all . I am a smith on my server and I have been dabbling with the protons. It seems most smiths are simply worried about DPS. IMHO I think HITTING is much better than a higher possible damage. To that end I have made some test grenades.... these protons are +33m @ 24m. If you look at any standard dmg/spd experimented grenade you will notice maybe +12 @ 10m and +0 @ IR whatever that may be.


A SINGLE point into the range line will up not only the IR mods.. but also the total IR range. So far my cap for distance has been 24m.


Now.... after calculating the damage difference, there is no more than a 10% difference... but the kicker is the speed... approx 7.6 for a standard throw.


Slice/pup makes these puppies pretty vicious... yes . I am aware that gren tosses are slow.. but with a decent speed slice/pup speed will be in the 4 second range. VERY acceptable IMO since the IR has been upped.... Speed is comparable to a dmg experimented grenade... and with only a 10% max dmg loss.



Note : I made 8 various protons with different slices... but all were range experimented. Master commando was hitting 75-80% of the time. Targets included Jedi.. Unarmored Wooks (me) and some other stacked classes (not sure what). Hit rate stayed constant.


After speaking with a couple master commandos on my server I was able to determine what would be the best trade off.

Message Edited by Draconicius on 08-06-2004 09:18 AM



Kai's Sunderies
Kauri Server
Naboo -5731 6811 Nearest to Theed. Stop by take a load off and shop a little.
AI till I die.
Tyrst
Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:18 am
#18
This isthe weapon smith I like to go tofolks. We are starting to realize that you could have a 10,000 damage grenade and it doesn't mean a thing if you can't hit what you are aiming at. The truth is most people are starting to stack defenses with this happening we have to adapt to be able to hit them. It sucks that we have to sacrafice speed for accuracy but those are the breaks.



Teer Sanbar
Widow Makers
The Emperors Servant
Warmaker01
Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:46 am
#19
Drac, I'd like to try your grenades, but finding a weaponsmith to even think of making grenades is hard enough. Pursuading them on Ahazi is even harder.


The grenades I have used when I first hit Master Commando were generally the high damage ones.


I also still say that requiring buffs to play or use your profession's abilities is wrong.

Stupmster
Fri Aug 06, 2004 1:18 pm
#20






Dizzey wrote:


Reality says you will almost always be engaging an enemy while buffed.. PVE or pvp






maybe in PvP, but in PvE i'm rarely buffed... i spend most of my time killing stormies for FP, and i can solo 5 or 6 of them unbuffed with full comp and my trusty FT, and this was before i gave up BH for fencer.. i image now i coul do even better now... the only time i get buffed for PvP is when i solo mokks for cash...and you don't seem to be taking the money in to account, you don't have to PAY for your grenades, since you can make them yourself, so you only have to "buy" them at cost.. most commandos aren't WS as well, meaning whenever we want grenades we have to find a WS that will make them, pay a large amout of money for 5 charge weapons, get them sliced (optional, of course) then go out and use them, missing quite often if we aren't masters of keeping moving targets in the ideal range.... this racks up a very high bill, even higher if we were to use HSWs..... and since it takes me a while to grind money (i can only make about 750k per buff session doing mokks, most people say they can make 1 mil per hour) i really don't like using weapons that miss often (unless i use them to agro something to me) do high HAM damage to me (it's HUGE since my comp obliterates my secondaries) and high radius damage to me.... to me, this isn't a solid investment...



______________________________________________________________________

Sazu Nez'kre - Bothan Super Commando
FaayeModra
Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:05 pm
#21
whoever said they could throw a thermal detonator ever 1.5 seconds is lying, crazy, bugged or all 3. it takes at least 2 seconds between hitting the macro and the toss!
Bacon00
Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:28 pm
#22
Hmm, I like this idea about putting all the points into range. Might make commandos happier with the nades.


I'll try that. I have a guy testing some of my grenades for me, so I'll make him some range-experimented ones.



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Draconicius
Sat Aug 07, 2004 12:18 am
#23
Warmaker.. I feel your pain.


I absolutley HATE making these things . For the higher end grenades you are looking at4-5 factory runs. Rocket Launchers require 8 total runs... 28 realtime hours for a full run of rockets :/ . Munitions are NOT fun.. but there is a niche for them ... if the smith is willing to take input from friends/customers.


But I like to take all the information I gather from hardcore PvPer's and PvEer's if possible... PvE I listen to as well, but dont stake too much in to it. PvP is far more enlightening . Well .. in regards to tactics and tweaked weapons.


Once I gather what stats on the weapon are important I run tests.... Mainly increased IR rating in relation to dmg loss. Balance for commando's is hard because IMO they should be upper echelon dmg dealers, but I am finding that in the heavy weapons class/munitions... the dmg loss isnt THAT bad when you compare to accuracy changes.


Note that it is possible to get a flamer with +8-10 @ IR... instead of a -52 @ IR stat. Dmg/speed.. will be slightly lower.. by about 29 pts of dmg and .6 speed slower... but for +60pts to IR... I think that is a decent trade-off.


If anything... TALK to your smiths.... many I know are "snooty" and wont take input from a lowly (HA.. .funny funny haha) commando who has no idea about crafting. The few changes I was able to do with just a little information is pretty damn amazing. With the arrival of more and more defense stackers... player input is needed.


All I know is ... there will be some VERY upset jedi soon.


/wave Teer .. I have more prototypes incoming... I had an interesting accuracy build. I will try and deliver or make you come and snag it later



Kai's Sunderies
Kauri Server
Naboo -5731 6811 Nearest to Theed. Stop by take a load off and shop a little.
AI till I die.
Jhyson-Bria
Sat Aug 07, 2004 12:24 am
#24




Electro5 wrote:

I have +19 Thrown Weapons Accuracy from skill attachments (Skill attachments are pretty cheap when your the only one who wants them, haha. Paid 120k for a +9 skill tape and a +10 armor attachment). And I can truly say that I still miss at least a third of the time I try and use grenades. Granted most times I can't attack from ideal range because I mostly fight creatures, and they don't really like to stay at 12-20m, but still. I can use it on a group of 5 enemies and expect to miss 2 of them. Then you factor in Counterattack, Block, and Dodge, which for some reason seem to apply more for grenades, and your probably only hitting a bit more than two fifths of the time. I can't imagine what a normal Master Commando's chances are if I miss that much with +19 accuracy.


Oh, and if you want to see some REALLY nasty grenades, get some Acklay Venom and have a weaponsmith make some protons with that. I've never seen any made with it, but I've seen the venom with +1.7k to damage, so that would be something like maybe 4-5k of damage unsliced.





Acklay Venom only works with C22, cryoban and glop.
NyteTyGer
Sat Aug 07, 2004 1:42 pm
#25




Draconicius wrote:


Hi all . I am a smith on my server and I have been dabbling with the protons. It seems most smiths are simply worried about DPS. IMHO I think HITTING is much better than a higher possible damage. To that end I have made some test grenades.... these protons are +33m @ 24m. If you look at any standard dmg/spd experimented grenade you will notice maybe +12 @ 10m and +0 @ IR whatever that may be.


A SINGLE point into the range line will up not only the IR mods.. but also the total IR range. So far my cap for distance has been 24m.


Now.... after calculating the damage difference, there is no more than a 10% difference... but the kicker is the speed... approx 7.6 for a standard throw.


Slice/pup makes these puppies pretty vicious... yes . I am aware that gren tosses are slow.. but with a decent speed slice/pup speed will be in the 4 second range. VERY acceptable IMO since the IR has been upped.... Speed is comparable to a dmg experimented grenade... and with only a 10% max dmg loss.



Note : I made 8 various protons with different slices... but all were range experimented. Master commando was hitting 75-80% of the time. Targets included Jedi.. Unarmored Wooks (me) and some other stacked classes (not sure what). Hit rate stayed constant.


After speaking with a couple master commandos on my server I was able to determine what would be the best trade off.

Message Edited by Draconicius on 08-06-2004 09:18 AM





teer and I are the ones Kaimerai have been testing the nades with, we're probably the two most die hard commandos on our server


Let me tel you that what Kai says is true - Those accuracy tweaked nades he made were fabulous, and not shabby at all on damage. One I threw hit Kai himself in the mind for 1300+ damage, and I was 23m away, well clear of the blast radius. And that 80% hit ratio was from me, without any accuracy mods other than the ones from Master Commando. Now, if I were to pull on the Demolitions belt and a few AAs, well, how much fun would that be


Our goal is to get the best nades we can so we can drop a few jedi with me and teer lobbing nades at him. Gotta love that nades can't be blocked by Jedi


But yep, I gotta support my corespondant on this one, gonna do a bug submission everytime my nade splashes me.


Also, can't resist throwing this in here - How do you miss with a grenade? close only counts in horshoes and hand grenades is the saying, and the reason is AN EXPLOSIVE DOESN'T NEED TO LAND ON YOU TO REALLY FREAKING HURT!!!


Nades should always hit, always.......Sorry, just had to get it outta my system




N Y T
E T Y
G E R...........//AI ( bh | wookiee overseer | doc )
Sseli
Sun Aug 08, 2004 10:12 pm
#26

If any Radiant weaponsmiths are reading this, I would love to try some max accuracy thermal dets too...willing to pay large to be better equipped against my opponent (jedi) and maybe actually win a few without resorting to melee BH template.


"....and we like the boom!" - L'Trimm


Sseli

Message Edited by Sseli on 08-08-2004 11:15 PM



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