Commando Archive

Hello Commandos

I'm not a Commando, never have been one so far, but more than once played with the thought. The lack of specials after the CU was the main reason I didn't choose it but took Carbines.

When I heard that new specials are in testing, and then a few hours later yesterday I got my beta invitation, I jumped online and tested them, after running around a bit on Mustafar.

I've read this thread here now, and read that Starnick said that Helios is going to change the specials. I'm not sure that has happened already.

I can understand you're happy you got some attention finally... but I have to say in their current state the new specials suck.

My template on TC2 was: Master Commando, Master Dancer, Novice Musician (If I go for Commando, that will be the template I will be)

On live I am simply 4404 Carbineer. CL 40. rest in Entertainer profs. I do more damage with a CL 40 Carbine and Improved Legshot+Improved Rapid Fire, than with Master Commando and those new shots, even though I use a frog-weapon on test (which always seem to be 20% better than on live later).

In addition to that, I dished out twice as much damage alternating between Ranged Shot and Kip Up Shot (didn't pick up Carbines 1 for Placed Shot /slap self), than with Focus Fire or Dead Band Shot.

I was doing like 1600 damage with those compared to 1100-1200 with Ranged shot, with double or more delay and a warmup timer.

Here issues I have with Focus Fire and Dead Bang Shot:
- Warmup Timer. Means you can't walk around and it increases the delay of them even more. They're damage just doesn't justify that long warmup. Either remove it so you can run around, or increase the damage... alot. Like 2500-3000 damage instead of 1200 with Ranged shot, and the warmup is ok.
- Damage. Closely linked to the warmup issue and mentioned there already. As I said, I was doing alot more damage with two of the lowest damage specials ingame (Ranged Shot and Kip Up shot alternating)
- Cooldown. The Cooldown time is good, should not be faster. However, using Dead Bang Shot also activates the cooldown of Focus Fire and vica versa. So you can't use those two shots to alternate like you can do with Advanced Critical and Improved Headshot for example. No other shots have linked Cooldowns that I'm aware of.

Focus Shot only:
I did not notice any reduction in the cone area, even though I have not tested this properly.

Issues with Overkill Shot:
WOW. 10 seconds warmup. Holy Bantha. That essentially disqualify this shot for about every use in PvP or PvE. In PvP every enemy will have ripped through you before you can fire this shot... or just run out of range, KD and interrupt you, mezz you, laugh at you, or...
IF it would have the ability to incap the target in one shot (like the name Overkill could imply) this might be justified, but the damage needs to be upped alot! 3k Damage against a CL 80 target through armor and Improved Center of Being should be possible, otherwise I don't see a justification to this long timer.
This might however make it unbalancing in combination with things like Paralize or Concussion Shot. Mezz and line up for Overkill Shot... To balance that Overkill Shot should not be useable on mezzed targets. If someone gives you enough time for a shot like that, they deserve to be wasted.

Can't comment on Demolition Shot.

And isn't it somehow wrong that the COMMANDO specials don't boost AE damage, but other specials from other, completely unrelated profs do? (thats how I understood it at least) However I see where this could be a very unbalancing factor, so it might be ok.

But as it stands now, for a simple Commando without any outside skills, Ranged and Placed shot are still the best choice, unless those issues get adressed. So for anyone without any additional skills nothing really changes. (perhaps against structures with Demo Shot)


Grenades got a powerboost. Well I have no idea what damage they do on live, but the frog-CL 54 Grenade does 1300 damage. Not bad.
But the reuse timer is horrible. It takes me 17 seconds to use another grenade, and 27 seconds to use the same one again! (the speed of the grenade is 10, modified 7.02)
Also the cooldown on other specials after using a grenade is too long I think.
I used an Imperial Grenade to get the KD effect, and couldn't fire a Ranged Shot with the flamer before my target got up again.
That was just my impression though, Grenades might be fine for other uses like they are now, I guess you can judge that better than me.

About the AE effects on most weapons. For Flamer and Lava cannon fine. But 10% damage on some gun? Thats a joke, doesn't do any damage and just aggros the entire lair. More a reason to NOT use that weapon and take another Single Target gun.

I hope this post makes some sense. I might be wrong in some of my points, if so please point them out to me. I admit I don't know too much about Commando

And I really wish Commandos get some love finally, you're long overdue (yes smugglers you're too ). But not like this. This is like you're getting thrown a bone so you shut up for the next few months...

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Coreena wrote:

My template on TC2 was: Master Commando, Master Dancer, Novice Musician (If I go for Commando, that will be the template I will be)

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So? A rifleman does no damage with only Rifleman specials?
A Carbineer does not?

Don't you think that specials that get outperformed by RANGED SHOT are somehow wrong?

/shrug

EDIT: Not to mention, that having another profession like Rifleman, TKA, Doctor, BH or whatever, should have no or only little influence on those specials.

Message Edited by Coreena on 10-13-2005 09:46 PM

Thanks for the heads up on the specials within the context of Commando as a stand alone combat profession. Starnick has been good enough to cuation the rest of us that the specials seem to be using either the wrong damage modifier at the moment, or at the least, that the specials themselves are broken and possibly falling back to a default damage modifier equivalent to the one on overcharge shot. I don't think any of us will be too surprised if there are more efficient damaging spcials in other professions when all of that is fixed. The main thing is, even if you can pick up another ranged profession to improve your performance (which is afterall how it should work) this is no longer going to be an absolute must. I'm still not sure this is the best standalone combatprofession to go with a dancer template, but once those fixes are in, it'll be a darned sight better.

Coreena speaks the truth:

A day or so ago, specials came back on TC2 but they didn't seem all that changed. Overkill still is roughly 10% less damage than improved legshot, and the other specials are really no better than overcharge shot. It has been reported in the commando thread on the ToW Beta forums...and we're awaiting to see what Helios will do. When I can get info...you folks will be the first to know.

In regards to our grenades, the timers have not been touched from the looks of it at all...and will remain an outstanding issue if they aren't. A bit of a boost in damage/states, and a few fixes really were delt to the greandes...pretty much cutting half of our grenade issue down to size. Hopefully they're getting more attention...

As for our new specials not powering up AoE, that is intended. In the past the devs didn't want to have the most powerful special + the most powerful AoE under one roof. Pre-ToW Beta TC2, we had neither...now we have a compromise. We have good AoE...and (hopefully soon) powerful specials. That preserves our damage to primary targets for any template, and rather than relying on damage from ranged professions - we expand OUR damage.

Right now, we rely on another ranged prof's specials for damage that -should- be a part of our own profession. It makes a whole lot more sense having some sort of preservation of damage within our own domain, and if we choose to go ranged...an expansion of that domain, not a substitution of it. If we go melee...we don't expand our damage capabilities, rather expand our tanking or melee skills. In all, its a whole lot better than what we have right now as it makes sense...our role is in accords to damage, so allow the profession to do just that.

And almost forgot:

We have both (killer specials, killer AoE) with just our profession alone...then we will wreak of FOTMness, and usually thats a -bad- thing in SWG lol.

Hopefully our specials will be really powerful compared to the likes of improved legshot, and we'll have those "killer specials" then. In order to have the "killer AoE" we would have to expand it, and dabble/master ranged professions which would grant us very damaging AoE but lower single target damage. It's very much, on a broader scale, what I've been proposing for our #1 Issue...

Some may think thats going back to square one, where we'll have to be dependent on another profession, but I highly doubt it and here's why:

Damage and AoE are not two way streets. If you're all damage, its a lot easier going down the route of AoE, but if you're all AoE then its near impossible going the route of damage.

Take our single target weapons into consideration. With just relying on AoE as our primary abilities, the RL, HAR, Proton Rifle, and others are alienated from the damage we can produce with AoE weapons. So pretty much a third or half of our damage capabilities are gimped...then what about boss mobs or single targets where you need a damage dealer? AoE simply won't cut it; it has a narrow application in just crowd control and damage dealing vs multiple enemies. One half of that is a half of our CU role, and the other half no where near it.

Now...if you start out with damage, and have AOE more of a secondary ability, you boost -all- the AoE weapons -and- non-AoE weapons, hence we become useful vs boss or simple single target NPCs. Our AoE will be just as useful as you were when we didn't have specials, vs multiple enemies. Nothings changed...save the single target damage.

You can't do that under an AoE-dominated system, as then it'll become unbalanced and the profession overpowered because if you make our weapons more damaging without specials, it's going to affect the AoE primary abilities. We needed a power source that was external to our AoE, in order to not only preserve our damage but to actually make our AoE more practical since we won't be relying exclusively on it.

Message Edited by StarNick on 10-13-2005 04:32 PM

Message Edited by StarNick on 10-13-2005 04:34 PM

Thanks for the update StarNick.

Sheesh, I stop visiting the forums for a week or so and the world is turned upside down. We're getting major fixes, our role is looking to be fulfilled.... maybe I should take another break and come back in two weeks and see if hero class professionlevel advancement has been implemented.

Lol ill be happy just to see our specials be a lot more powerful than they are on TC2 at the moment

Even if something down the road gets messed up, keep in folks...we -actually- got specials. That in itself had a lesser chance than you colliding with some bloody meteorite in space. If for whatever reason we need more balance in damage down the road, we're not going to have the foundation in place...but we'll be FAR easier to tweak than we were previously...

No - Im not saying that the current damage modifiers are the compromise, the concept is. As things are on TC2 right now, and if those insanely low damage modifiers stay as they are now...it doesn't even come -close- to what the concept was trying to achieve.

Remember, these damages are coming from Advanced forms of elite specials...so something is REALLY screwy with the damage. That means the less advanced specials are either doing LESS damage than marksman specials, or all 3 levels are fixed at once modifier (which, also cites that something's broken)

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I thought the compromise here should be that when we use high damage specials it does effect only a single target and lose damage on the secondary targets. -> More Firepower to single = less to the crowd <- wheres the problem here that shall unbalance us?

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And yeah...that's the compromise I was referring to, in a nut shell. Our AoE essentially remains the same as it was intended to be, but our single-target damage is upgraded & preserved for any template.

Sorry if I sounded as if the -current- implementation of the specials was anything in regards to this, I was talking about the concept of having such specials. We're going to have to pay very close attention to the actual application so we won't get screwed over like in the CU...

Message Edited by StarNick on 10-13-2005 05:55 PM

One Man Army Commando Corr wrote :

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No - Im not saying that the current damage modifiers are the compromise, the concept is. As things are on TC2 right now, and if those insanely low damage modifiers stay as they are now...it doesn't even come -close- to what the concept was trying to achieve.

correct

Remember, these damages are coming from Advanced forms of elite specials...so something is REALLY screwy with the damage. That means the less advanced specials are either doing LESS damage than marksman specials, or all 3 levels are fixed at once modifier (which, also cites that something's broken)

Either broken or just nerfed to death since the devs maybe think we got enough of the carrot to buy tow and theyjust throwit away now.

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I thought the compromise here should be that when we use high damage specials it does effect only a single target and lose damage on the secondary targets. -> More Firepower to single = less to the crowd <- wheres the problem here that shall unbalance us?

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And yeah...that's the compromise I was referring to, in a nut shell. Our AoE essentially remains the same as it was intended to be, but our single-target damage is upgraded & preserved for any template.

Ok means for me AOE is at least fixed but the single damage dealing ability remains by other proffession specials ...am i wrong?

Sorry if I sounded as if the -current- implementation of the specials was anything in regards to this, I was talking about the concept of having such specials. We're going to have to pay very close attention to the actual application so we won't get screwed over like in the CU...

At this point we can only pay attention to what the devs push live and what u tell us from the advantagesof testing and concepting. So u have to drag the attention to us till at least the main issue is solved and im afraid for u it was the AOE fix not the damage dealing ability at all. So my concern is what for is the AOE fix if we cant take out single targets with our single target specials?

Isnt it more logical to first fix the damage output at all and then work at the AOE damage ? Sounds more important since there is no content for pure Area Damage Dealers in the game.

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Ok means for me AOE is at least fixed but the single damage dealing ability remains by other proffession specials ...am i wrong?

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Ok, second shot at this

Our AoE pretty much will remain unchanged from what it does now -without- other ranged professions, as it will do with our new specials since those specials -do not- modify the AoE splash damage.

However (big however), we get single-target damage back into the profession due to these specials. So, we'll have (in theory) powerful specials - hence powerful damage regardless of template. Rather than the limited option of "you MUST get a ranged profession to do damage", we will become "we can get a ranged profession to expand our damage capabilities (expand AoE damage), or we can go melee to expand our melee skills (granted, we need a bit more retooling in that area still)".

The specials are our answer to our #1 issue of damage dealing, getting an AoE fix never veered us off this path. Instead, Helios surprised us with a feature that too often has been called "difficult to implement" and honestly would have little chance of getting into the game. Now, the real question is...will the damage meet our expecations? Right now thats a very big no, and Helios has heard it...

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So my concern is what for is the AOE fix if we cant take out single targets with our single target specials?

Isnt it more logical to first fix the damage output at all and then work at the AOE damage ? Sounds more important since there is no content for pure Area Damage Dealers in the game.

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Lastly, I'm not sure if Im fully reading you here but (correct me if I misunderstood), the AoE damage was a part of our overall damage dealing issue. However, it was originally intended to be "primary ability" which was woefully inadequate. We needed an external "ability" (whether it be consumable, hidden modifier, or weapon specials) so our weapons can hit as hard as the other damage dealers (ie Rifles), and use the AoE/other built-in abilities to supplement that damage, and cement us into a unique niche.

With how the new specials functions (with the crappy, but hopefully soon to change, damage aside), is our AoE is unaffected. Meaning, if we used overcharge shot and compared it to overkill, the AOE remains the same. However, the primary target is -drastically- would be improved by overkill. Thus, we have damage in against single targets, that works in a balanced fashion with an AoE, AND also works with our non-AoE weapons just as good.

The specials aren't exactly single target per say...they only seem to modify the primary attack of any weapon, AoE and non-AoE alike...so we will be able to take out single-targets regardless of how AoE functions or where it is situated.

Message Edited by StarNick on 10-13-2005 06:48 PM