Commando Archive

Message Edited by Corschen on 03-08-2004 04:13 PM

Message Edited by Corschen on 03-08-2004 04:15 PM

Message Edited by Corschen on 03-08-2004 04:21 PM

i want a machine gun rifle or a rocket launcher THATS A WEAPON not just 30 that you buy to me thats retarded.

but for a new weapon a amchine gun would be great not a mounted one, you cant move thats not that smart.

It seems that most of the posts on this thread are suggesting new weapons for the commando profession as the solution to the problems we have right now. Personally I don’t think that’s the right solution. Don’t get me wrong, I like new toys as much as the next guy, but a new weapon as such wouldn’t really solve our problems as I see it.

IMHO the central problems the commandoes have right now:
We are a one tick pony, and it’s not even that great a trick in the first place. If the commando profession is to be viable and fun to play, we need access to several different attack types and weapons, and we need to be able to use them well enough to make a difference in the higher end of the game. A lot of people seem to think that the best solution would be to add one or more new ‘commando only’ weapons to add diversity and damage capability to the profession.

However, the irony is that while we are pretty much stuck with one decent weapon, we are also the profession in the game with the most weapon certifications; we just can’t use them for very much. The best way to help the commando profession would IMHO be to improve our ability to use the weapons we already have rather than add new ones.

We already have certifications for weapons of every damage type in the game (except maybe electricity?) as part of the marksman tree. BUT we do NOT have access to any specials that would allow us to use these at a level where we could contribute to combat in an equal manner. Nor do we have the speed or accuracy mods to make any real use of these weapons.

My suggestions would simply be to combine the HAR and Flame tree, and instead add a new tree focusing on adding some speed / accuracy mods to rifles, pistols and carbines. We should never be able to use a rifle, pistol or carbineer as the specialized classes do, but we should be able to use them all with enough proficiency that they form a solid alternative to our heavy weapons.

As master marksmen we already receive +30 speed and +60 accuracy for each of the three weapon types. If the commando tree was to add to that so that by Master commando we would have the double of a master marksman (+60 speed and +120 accuracy) we should have enough speed/accuracy to use the weapons fairly well, without approaching the level of the specialized professions. To solve the problem of damage output, I would suggest changing the overcharge 2 shot in master marksman by removing the extra decay causing effect, thus giving us a useful high damage shot that we’d be able to use with all our marksman weapons without making the specialized professions feel like we were steeling their thunder.

This would leave the commando profession in a situation where the marksman weapons would add a great deal of versatility to the profession, while still keeping our heavy weapons as our most useful attack (of course the HAR, grenades and HW still needs some work).
- We would not be completely helpless against opponents with high heat resists.
- We would have very few useful specials but instead we would have the greatest access to damage types of any professions.
- It should be far easier and faster to implement as opposed to adding one or more new weapons / specials to the game.
- The pre-req’s for the profession would be useful again rather than them feeling like a bad excuse to burn SP’s

Right, I'm gonna repost my post from the "In Concept" forum for you to pick apart. It seems to be popular, being both 5-starred and repeated verbatim by Xenothaulus


What defines the Commando role in combat?

He's the group tank, the Juggernaut, the Goliath. He's the Chaingunner from TFC that storms in and lays down the supression fire while the snipers pick off the stragglers and the scouts infiltrate behind enemy lines. He's the colossal suit of 3" thick armour that soaks up the enemy fire. He's the guy that causes a huge dent in the enemy force, the sledgehammer which crushes the opponent totally if used on a weak point. He's the guy that stays standing, guns blazing until someone finally gets in a fatal wound. He aint got time to bleed.

He's also the guy that's slow, and draws a LOT of fire.

What basic combat elements should they possess?

Huge offensive capabilities, good defence. Makes things go boom. Tough as nails in a firefight, more vulnerable to being mobbed up on by groups of melee fighters or melee MOBs. Works best on the very front lines of battle.

What offensive abilities?

Nothing flashy in terms of statuses, KD, bleeds etc. Lots of Boom, lots of blunt force trauma. Preferably swap some trees round, use Grenades (and fix 'em), the current Disposables (to some degree of accuracy, especially at Master), One tree for Flame/HAR type weapons, another tree for a Heavy Repeater and maybe a Concussion Rifle. Some specials for the Launcher Pistol would be nice.

What defensive abilities?

Not so much defence in terms of melee def / ranged def as now. The Commando should get hit a lot, but not take much damage and be able to stand firm and shrug off things like Dizzy and especially KD. Possibly has a reduction in armour cost, or a bonus to protection from armour. Maybe a bonus to buffs recieved on the 3 main HAM pools. Or possibly a bonus to ranged and/or melee toughness? Or possibly Melee Mitigation 1, especially with the Unarmed requirement.

What unique abilities?

Use of huge weapons with little-no HAM cost. Doesn't have to worry about HAM being eaten when using specials in armour. Excellent at anti-armour himself. Has a couple of rare damage types, especially blast. LP and RL should be more useful.

Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?

Essential for taking out the heavily armoured. Plenty of high AP weapons for killing AT-STs, Krayts, Nightsisters, Kimogilas. Currently Riflemen and Swordsmen are more use against such targets.

How could/should they interact with other professions?

Regular Customer at Weaponsmiths for Grenades, Disposable weapons. These'd be worth crafting if they were cheaper and hit more often, not 30k for a 28 shot Rocket Launcher which misses almost every shot under 40m. Literally more bang for your buck.

Best friends of Docs and Dancers for buffs.

What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?

Vulnerable to the faster targets. Commando hits hard, but hits slow, so enemies should be able to surround and pound him before he manages to kill them all. Ideally needs a melee friend to keep things from getting too close, or a medic to keep him stimmed up.

What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?

Base cracker. Turret destroyer. AT-ST/Tank killer.

See also: http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=in_concept&message.id=182#M182

And here's Garvin's post, the one I link to, just for convenience:

What defines the Commando role in combat?

The Commando of SWG is a Ranged Profession that does it's fighting in Melee Range. It's a profession with it's roots in both Melee and Ranged. Because of that it should be considered an inbetween profession with elements of both sides...Ranged Attacks with Melee Defenses.

The Commando's role is that of the first line of attack, or rather the first wave of heavy damage attack. The Commando is alse a grizzled vetern of many wars. He is as tough as his weapons are heavy. To the Commando it's all about that big explosion, that fire ball, that pile of debris that was a building, that smoldering melted pile that was an ATST...

The Commando should also be the expert on all Large Weapons.

What basic combat elements should they possess?

Ranged Specials with Melee Defenses. They should be able to large amounts of damage in quick initial bursts with some down time for recharge and reload.

What offensive abilities?

Powerful heavy weapons. Range restricted DoT with no restriction on other Ranged Attacks. All attacks should do heavy damage when connecting.

What defensive abilities?

Ranged Mitigation and high Melee Defenses in the form of Melee Def and Def Vs. KD/Dizzy. A Vetern Commando has seen a lot of action and therefore should be able to take a lot of punishment. Commando's have slower attacks then many other professions, but should be able to withstand a lot more then most.

What unique abilities?

Commandos should take battle fatigue at a slower pace then other professions. Commandos are use to battle, it's second nature to them...they are not relaxed unless in combat. Commandos should be Masters of their weapons, with the ability to repair or enhance.

Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?

Commandos should be able to be utilized to take out the big game (ATST, ATAT, etc) while other professions worry about the ground units.

How could/should they interact with other professions?

Commandos should play the role the big gun. They run directly into fire to take out the heavy fire power. In the war this will be a major necessity for professions weak on defense but strong on ranged attacks. It's another reason we need good Melee Defenses.

What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?

Obviously our weapons and armor will come from Smiths. Our buffs from the crafters. Healing from the medics. We are just a soldier with a great big gun. Point, shoot, blow it up, burn it down...

What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?

Commandos should be the profession that specializes in the bigger targets (ATSTs, ATATs, Turrents, Bases, etc...Other professions should focus on the ground units...

Changes need to be made to make the Master Commando something worthwhile and worthy of working too. Currently someone with just Flame 4 is as powerful as a Master Commando...with that in mind what's the point? Give us a reason to be Master Commando and give us a purpose to being. Stop taking from us and start giving...

As my final of this trio of posts, I'm suggesting some very simple changes which can make the profession more viable until a revamp. This is not what I want as final for the profession, just the next step in the evolution of it:

1) Now that the HAR is getting it's Acc and Speed mods fixed, make it a worthwhile weapon by making it AP2. This allows it to be somewhat effective in PVP against the armoured, where the FT is useless. It also brings it in line damagewise with the DXR-6.

2) Greater Accuracy with Flamethrower and HAR. A +5 at all levels of use, Novice to Master, for a total extra +30 would be a huge help.

3) Fix Grenades. Make them so they can be used unbuffed, and will hit no less than 50% at novice, up to 95% at Master. We have some nice damage types and AP there, but impossible to use to any effect. Make it so they can be used inside Dungeons. I want to use Detonators against the Geonosians. Give them a longer Range, I know I can chuck something that far if I tried, I did Cricket in High school. Also make them cheaper in terms of resources. Not every Commando wants to spend hundreds of thousands of credits a week to be able to be half decent.

4) Make the Disposables more accurate over a wider range. I hate pressing to take a shot when at ideal range, and by the time I've actually shot, the target is in melee range and cannot be hit at all. Make it so these can be used inside Dungeons too. There are plenty of open places inside the Warren and Geo cave where a Heavy Weapon could be fired. HAM costs are also hell. Make these cheaper too, the average Rocket Launcher is 1000 credits per shot. I only have a load of HPBCs as a friend was grinding Weaponsmith by making them.

5) Melee Mitigation 1 at Field Tactics IV. This means the Commando doesn't have to take up a Melee profession to not get killed within 6 seconds by a Teras Kasi Master, and is some justification for the Unarmed Requirement.

5 simple steps to a better Commando, and none of them would require hours and hours of changing the profession, just some simple number changes in a database. (I think.)

Opinions?

• There will be 9 grenade types: Concussion (Kinetic damage), Particle (Energy damage), Fragmentation (Blast damage), Cryoban (Cold Damage), Proton (Heat damage), Glop (Acid damage), Shock (Electrical Damage), Ion (Stun damage) and the original C12.


• There will be 8 HWs: Concussion Missile Launcher (Kinetic), Particle Beam Cannon (Energy), Rocket Launcher (Blast), Cryoban Launcher (Cold), Proton Missile Launcher (Heat), Acid Stream Launcher (Acid), Lightning Beam Cannon (Electrical), and Man-Portable Ion Cannon (Stun). All of these would be constructed using the existing method used for the Rocket Launcher (grenades being used in construction).


• The RL and Frag Grenade would be certed at Novice, the Particle weapons at level I, theCryoban weapons at level II, theAcid at level 3, the Electrical andProton at level III and the Ion weapons at Master.


• Heavy weapons would still not be usable indoors.


• Merge the accuracy mods for all HWs into one category (Heavy Weapon Accuracy, Heavy Weapon Speed).

• It filles a niche. Commandos as it stands are at a severe disadvantage indoors (i.e. in dungeons). Adding AP2 to the LP and incorporating the carbine version help fill this hole without removing existing restrictions.


• It keeps us as we are, but moreso. A master commando as it is now can master one other combat profession. As it is now, you can choose TKA and Pistoleer and actually help your commando class. By adding these two weapons, you could also choose Rifleman or Carbineer and do the same.


• It self-balances the class. By not adding specials for the LP or the new weapons, it's easier to keep the class in balance - as long as Rifleman, Pistoleer and Carbineer are balanced, Commando will be. Additionally, any of those classes that has Commando levels will be improved by the accuracy mods beyond their normal limits.


• It allows things that work to stay as they are. HWs can stay outdoors only. The limited effectiveness of the grenades and HWs becomes a good trade-off for the extra abilites added. Commandos don't get extra damage types and don't need them - blast is what we shoulddo, and blast is what we'll continue to do.


• The grenade and HW revamp allows the trees to have a real purpose: bypassing resistances when your weapons lack effectivenesss. This will allow the commando to become the "jack of all trades" when it comes to damaging targets that would otherwise be invulnerable. It also opens the door for the devs to put in tougher creatures with higher resistances.


• The new weapons are commando-ized and not overly useful to the other professions unless fighting like a commando. High HAM costs keep the use of specials down to balance the extra damage they do, hence requiring the user to use commando tactics with a rifle/carbine/pistol flavorfor them rather than justusing them as a rifle/carbine/pistol. A rifleman can use the SAW from cover, but can't spam Head Shot 3, a carbineer can throw in Full Auto shots, but not incessantly. Lower accuracy mods on the weapons keep the accuracy wellbelow the Elite and T-21 at their optimal ranges, but lower penalties help once the target closes.


• It helps define who Commandos are in the game. weapons specialists who take the base level of training and then specialize in heavy damage dealing variants of them, and the guy to call when dealing with creatures that are hard to damage.

Comments?

I'm just going to throw my opinion in. When I think of commandos, I think of weapon specialists. We seem to be short when it comes to our selection of weapons to use. I vote for combining the FT and AR trees into a DOT tree. Other weapons can be added into that tree as well (eg. Cryo gun, photon gun, Gas gun).

As for the fourth tree that would be left open, I'm not sure what to put there. I would ask for combat defenses, stealth and 'quick attacks' that would reduce defenses manuvers, natural armor piercing (knowledge of weak points in armor), and pluses when armor (natural reduction in encumberance)is worn would be good to see. These would have to be tested for balance, but we need something more than just another combat class.

Bounty Hunters are made special because of their investigation tree. Smugglers have slicing and spices. Commandos only have fighting, and we're supposed to be good at it.

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Illrigger wrote:

I guess I see things in a different light. Rather than boosting the one aspect of the class that works until people call for a nerf, I'm proposingworking the features that don't. The LP is indeed useless unless you take Pistoleer. Why not devote one tree to enhancing that aspect of who the commando is? It might indeed make us look like an "add-on" profession, but we would at least have a purpose and be GOOD at it, two things the Commando class completely lacks right now.

Look at the other proposals here:Rail guns that make the T-21 look wimpy. AP3 on everything. Massive weapons that are never going to getin because they would totally unbalance the game in PvP. PvP is already broken, SOE isn't going to put in stuff that breaks it even more, so they're never going to happen

The proposed FT/HAR clones sound good, but in the end they will be the same or weaker version of things we already have and are complaining about. I don't think anyone REALLY wants that.

Why not think outside the box at what we COULD be, instead of trying to beef us up to whatwe never will be? It just seems more productive to me.

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I agree 100%, my point was simply that adding the new weapons you discribed would (as far as i could tell) make any diffrence to the class. Giveing commandos some pistom / speed mods in one of thier trees could be very helpfull though. I still belive we would need at least one or two 'decent' specials to gain a damage output at a comparable level to other elite professions. With that said, as i mentioned earlier, im not sure what we really need are more weapons.. heck we already have certifications of the vast majority of ranged weapons in the game.. we just need to be able to make decent use of them.

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Hellshot wrote:
I think its important to define what type of weapon we want. Do we want a reusable anti-vehicle weapon, an anti-armored target (person in armor) or a crowd control weapon? I think we have vehicles covered as it stands with the rocket launcher, provided it gets a little more love. I think we also have crowd control covered, at least at short range, with the flamethrower. This leaves armored personnel. Now as much as we we would like it, we are not going to get a very high damage weapon and AP3, but I think we could get something in between that and the laser carbine, which I see as a comprable weapon for this role. Also, I think this weapon should work off of its own modifiers as a balance to its capabilities. Think of most carbines as light assault weapons, and this is a heavy weapon, requiring the soldier to relearn how to handle his/her/its weapon.

Also, once we define the target, we need to think about specials. They come in a few varieties, those that target a ham bar(bodyshot, mindshot, legshot), those that inflict a DOT (flame, healthshot, etc.), those that are crowd control (change of posture shots), and those that inflict status effects (knockdown and dizzy). Now we already have two weapons that in effect target the health bar, with flames applying a dot to this bar and the pistol specials being able to target this bar, so I therefore think that this weapon should complement these existing skills rather than giving us all new capabilites, which could unbalance gameplay. Plus, we can get other types of specials with points left over after mastering commando (you can pick up carbineer for long ranged crowd control, smuggler for knockdowns, and rifleman for dizzies). I think a pair of Health bar targeted speicals should go with this weapon in short.

Damage type is the last issue for this weapon. Right now we have three main damage typs, blast, acid, and heat. I think that this weapon should either have acid damage if the HAR is removed from the game, or have stun or cold damage if the HAR is merged into the flamethrower tree.

Weapon Summary:

Commando Tactical Assault Carbine

Crafting level: Master Weaponsmith

Damage type: Acid (if HAR is removed); Stun or Cold (if HAR is merged with flamethrower)

Damage Range: 300-400 (with ideal materials)

Speed: 4.5 (with ideal materials)

Armor Piercing: Heavy

HAM costs: similar to the HAR (I dont have these handy)

Accuarcy: +0 at all ranges (to reflect the military training of the user)

Skill Tree Summary:

Novice: Certification, +15 accuracy

Level 1: +15 accuracy, +10 speed, Chest Pound 1 (Heatlh bar targeting shot)

Level 2: +15 accuracy, +10 speed

Level 3: +15 accuracy, +10 speed, Chest Pound 2

Level 4: +25 accuracy, +10 speed

Master: +25 accuracy, +25 speed, Chest Pound 3

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That is an awesome idea! Man, that is the most well-thought-out, well balanced weapon for us that I've ever heard proposed!

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TennerRavenstar wrote:

I agree 100%, my point was simply that adding the new weapons you discribed would (as far as i could tell) make any diffrence to the class. Giveing commandos some pistom / speed mods in one of thier trees could be very helpfull though. I still belive we would need at least one or two 'decent' specials to gain a damage output at a comparable level to other elite professions. With that said, as i mentioned earlier, im not sure what we really need are more weapons.. heck we already have certifications of the vast majority of ranged weapons in the game.. we just need to be able to make decent use of them.

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