Commando Archive
Thread: Combat Balance
Xodarap777
Sun Jun 20, 2004 2:31 pm
#92
I see a lot of complaints about armor here, and I think we all agree: heavy armor goes contrary to the vision of a Teras Kasi Artist. It is also true that combat acuity is worthless. It never triggers for me, and, as I said, I dodge all the time when holding a sword. But a martial artist should be better at dodging/blocking than anyone. A martial artist also get hurt the worst when they do get hit.
Many have suggested that we should get our own suit of armor, with special powers. But for game balance, profession accuracy, and game mechanics, it makes more sense to adjust the profession with our skill boxes. Firstly, giving us our own armor will anger the other elite professions. Yes, BHs get them, but seriously, they deserve it. Secondly, the powers of a TKA come from within, not from what they wear. Thirdly, it would be easier to implement realistic balances from our skill boxes, as our armor would ideally function very differently than the rest of armors. That said, I would be willing to admit that a robe + belt (or something of the sort) could work very well. TK robes could add +100 or so to combat acuity, passing a built-in threshold after which it works very well. Obviously, we couldn't wear the robe and armor, and therein lies the balance. The belt could add to this skill, or any other. We would be free to wear armor instead, but the option would be open to us to go kung fu :-P
I do think that adding a skill mod (combat acuity is a great idea, it fits in great with the concept, but it needs to work, and work well) would be better than making a specific outfit, so that we can tailor our clothes to our own liking (and because TK robes would be cool at first and then get too commonplace). The skill mod should not work while armor is on. It would have to work about twice as often as the fencer's dodge. Sound unbalanced? Think about it this way: fencers dodge often AND they get armor to mitigate (heavily) all the damage that does get through. They also get extremely high melee and ranged defenses, which lowers the chance to hit them. On top of that, they get a ton of defense vs. Xs, and they do more PvP damage than any other profession! We, on the other hand would (1) not be able to wear armor OR not be able to dodge/block/counter very well, (2) still get crap for defense vs Xs and melee/ranged defense, and (3) chances are, we still wouldn't be the offensive powerhouse that other professions (swordsman, rifleman) are -- and nor should we be. We would have to dodge/block/counter very often to make up the difference. I would happily bite that bullet for the concept. But the devs would have to take it seriously. If we aren't going to wear armor, something needs to make up for it. But we shouldn't be wearing armor, and we shouldn't be the least likely of any class to dodge/block/counter!
I also really want to reiterate, since I've been thinking about it, especially in combination with not wearing armor: Power Boost should affect secondaries. Think of the explanation behind the differences. It makes no sense that we raise the amount of damage we can take in our respective pools. We should be raising our functionality, our abilities and senses. It is a fitness of spirit.
I also think that our range should be fixed, or compensated for. My pikemen friends stand amidst any PvE foes and spin-attack all of them. I can't even hita rancor at its normal range with my normal attack. I have to keep advancing on it, which is beyond annoying and feels and looks like a bug. With spin attacks, I am quite lucky to hit most of the mobs surrounding me, unless they're very small and stay very close. This makes the spin attacks next to worthless, which in turn makes the other brawler professions more PvE viable.
Oh, and to quote and reinforce:
100% resist mobs: bad idea. what are we going to do against those hmm? flip them off as the rend us asunder? mobs should have no more than 80% resist max. Anything will go down if you hit it enough times.
Message Edited by Xodarap777 on 06-20-2004 03:32 PM
Message Edited by Xodarap777 on 06-20-2004 09:58 PM
Zallan2
Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:30 am
#93
I havent read many of other posts but this is what i think. I definetely think we need different types of damage, along with two or three new weapons that actually look cool. We need more defense mods since we take damage up close. That is all i can think of at the moment, i know there are other issues that i just cant think of. Otherwise TK is great, if it doesnt get better, i might as well get rifleman along with the other 76% PvP templates that are Rifleman/Something. Oh yeah new fresh animations would be great too!
RoderickGellner
Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:26 pm
#94
i do enjoy TKA very much and i am almost master but i really feel that the power boost ablity is lacking...maybe im missing the point but i really think it should boost your strength [power boost] but maybe thats just me...the addition of new types of dammage would be great... other than that all of what the other posts said made a lot of sense but i just dont have enough experience with TKA to know for myself [smuggler needs a lot of work too]
Able-kain
Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:06 am
#95
this might be a downer... but i feel that tk is one of the most well rounded of all the combat classes. everyone loves teras kasi, and those that don't prolly don't know. almost everyone picks up the meditate line of tk... it's kinda sad really. i would vote for moving force of will to Teras Kasi Master. other than +15 meditate, there is nothing for that line at master. if this is impossible, then perhaps Power boost 2?, working much like PB but on the secondaries.
after the RK goes live i see no reason for another damage type, everyone wants stun... but that's just following what is the standard in PvP. i don't want stun, or restraint, or cold... and the armor nerf (i hope it's a homerun with the nerf bat) will make me more than happy.
themepark: get real... a themepark for TK is so so so wacked... and egotistical.
kungfu outfits: no again, where do you people get this stuff? it sounds so much like what the jedi are getting that it sickens me that you all want TK to be something it's not... lets face it... TK is a melee proffession that happens to be less broken than others, i would much rather see a broken special in every other combat proff be fixed first.
back to what i would like to see... a reason to keep people from dabbling in four or five different combat classes.... some people have relayed to me rather extreme fixes, like moving tk over master brawler.. and other such craziness.... a simple fix seems more complete, a single box over master of each proffession... call it XXX devoted .. such as Teras Kasi Devoted, it would have to consume a large number of skill points but offer unique specials or defences... anything really to stop the dabbling... people ask constantly, what is your template?... template lets nerf that word....
anyway, i love tk, and i know you do too or you prolly wouldn't have read five pages into this post to see what everyone says about it, i want balance... not uber and i think the dev's are moving in the right direction...
SmoothOperator
Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:34 am
#96
Teras Kasi: (my opinions anyway)
Visually impressive- We should be bouncing around the place gettin froggy like nobody's business. Not spinning like a top with a streetfighter2 animation at the end.We don't have stances other than the default unarmed that any newborn character can do. This has to change. Even though it is only a visual, I feel it's important and obviously many people agree ^ ^ /lookUp
Damage output - Pretty fair the way it is. We only do one type which limits what we can damage for starters. Saying we should be doing less damage than a fencer (for example) is not valid. They strike with an edged weapon - We strike with an edged weapon (VK's). They strike slower and heavier maybe, and we strike faster and lighter. Carbines/pistols are to rifles what VK's are to swords.
Armour - I don't really mind armour but, as someone else mentioned, a master of any martial art should be capable of fighting fully armoured. Maybe make specials cost more for non-masters so that wearing armour becomes more difficult.
Interesting? - There really should be something to do, i.e. Quests. The problem is the same with all professions really, but what's the point of working up to master TK? What do you get for it? Nothing. Other thanthe ability to go and do exactly what you've been doing all along, only with more efficiency. There should be content aimed specifically at profession masters.And I don't mean adding certs to the various NPCs running around. Maybe the TK trainers can give us some kind of quest.
Competitive - If Jedi can have ranked PvP, then why can't we? Martial arts are notorious for martial arts matches (Bloodsport anyone?). That's a huge part of what you train for in a martial arts class. Going to competitions and proving yourself. How about a ranked PvP system for unarmed combat only? The system is already there for Jedi (not released yet, but designed and more or less implemented) and wouldn't be very difficult to modify. This could lead to grand-master levels or even a "dan" system, i.e. 4th Dan TKM, etc.that would purely reflect your status among your peers.You could incorporate this into the player dojo idea and remove the ability to wear armour or use food/spice/buffs while inside the dojo to make the combat fair for rich and poor alike (would also make it entirely skill-based, with more seasoned TKMs beating the lining out of newbs). Dojos would be architect-crafted but you'd need a cert to use them which you get at master and would be similar to PA halls (hell you could even have it on the roof of the PA (the big spacesthat are never used)and make matches a purely inter-guild scenario).
You could even just have it as a radial option like "Duel", call it "Fight" or something. You could then have sys-messages like "You cannotFight while buffed/Wearing armour/Under the influence of spice/whatever". Sure, you could do this as a player-event thing, but if it is game-regulated then the better combatants would get the respect they deserve.
Just thoughts though.
ArcaJeth101
Tue Jun 22, 2004 7:42 am
#97
I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but I see all the posts about TK armor. My biggest regret about making my character is choosing wookiee, then deciding to go melee with TK/HS. If we get armor, at least make it something wookiee's can wear.
Mirnine
Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:21 am
#98
i like the idea of like a martial art uniform 
tailors could make em ive bin looking for something like that for ages and i would like to see some tk speciafic missions another thing is if we are a secret order how come all our trainers are out in the open could we not like hide em or make em none static so it be harder to find them make more of a challenge i think that the FOW timer is jus right and the same with power boost now all we need is our damage sorting less is better i personaly think
tailors could make em ive bin looking for something like that for ages and i would like to see some tk speciafic missions another thing is if we are a secret order how come all our trainers are out in the open could we not like hide em or make em none static so it be harder to find them make more of a challenge i think that the FOW timer is jus right and the same with power boost now all we need is our damage sorting less is better i personaly think thats my thoughts anyways feel free to rip them to shreds 
Nakajima
Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:42 am
#99
I vote for DUAL Knuckler certification at Master TKA level! ^_^
(just saw riddick in the chronicles movie... he was using knuclers in one scene (dual knucklers) and the moves were boss!!!!)
Nakajima
Tue Jun 22, 2004 11:03 am
#100
Nakajima wrote:
I vote for DUAL Knuckler certification at Master TKA level! ^_^
(just saw riddick in the chronicles movie... he was using knuclers in one scene (dual knucklers) and the moves were boss!!!!)
also, was looking at this, and this could technically be used to 'balance' TKAs... seeing as it is the single most popular profession.
Dmg with one knuckler could be lessened a bit, while TKMs would have the benefit of doing a little bit more dmg (having two knucklers)
also raising movecosts at the novice level and lowering special move costs toward the master level would be ideal.
(sorry to throw this out into the mix, noone likes a 'nerf' but this seems like a justifiable suggestion)
Mirnine
Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:26 pm
#101
Hmmm jus another idea how about a staredown ability that couldcause either a lowered resistance to kinetic from a breif period of time or maybe a cross between a warcry and intimidate doing a bit of both could be interesting got this from all the kung fu movies i watched lol plus could be fun watching 2 tkms trying to stare each other down to get the advantage and please ow please can we get some specific mission for tkas only
got this from all the kung fu movies i watched lol plus could be fun watching 2 tkms trying to stare each other down to get the advantage and please ow please can we get some specific mission for tkas only
Xodarap777
Tue Jun 22, 2004 7:53 pm
#102
Able-kain wrote:
this might be a downer... but i feel that tk is one of the most well rounded of all the combat classes.
lets face it... TK is a melee proffession that happens to be less broken than others, i would much rather see a broken special in every other combat proff be fixed first.
Have you tried the other professions? I love TK, but I have chars of the other melee professions that I play sometimes, too. Fencer is "uber." Huge dodge, huge defenses, huge defense vs Xs, more damage in PvP than any other profession. Swordsman does more damage (and, yes, more damage/sec, too) than TKs in PvE, and Pikemen have a very nice range and insanely cool specials (AoE dizzy+kd!), as well as doing as much damage as TKs and getting awesome loot weapons. TKs fall behind every other melee profession.
However, I don't care as much about damage or uberness as I do about the profession, itself. I, too, do not want to be "uber." I just want to be a martial artist, which TKs are not. I agree with you that we should not get our own outfits or a themepark.
I wholeheartedly disagree that devoted boxes are a good idea. It would fully discourage dabbling, which I think is the best thing in the game, being that it is viable now (and didn't used to be). This allows flexibility and uniqueness across characters. I hated the early game where everyone fit neatly into a few different character types. There's no personality in that. That's boring. Characters should differ from one another in stats and skills.
I agree that we all love TKA, but not for the reasons that you assume. I love TKA for what it should or could be, for what it represents, not for its current incarnation on the game.
mk86
Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:06 am
#103
alot of people have said this already, but i would really like a uniform, or special clothing for only the teras kasi. the jedi are getting robes only for them, we should get some sort of special clothing for us too. it would be awesome. i dont really like going around as a tkm running around in full comp armor. it doesnt look right to me.
Also, i remember before i bought the game, the teras kasi artists are the most dangerous martial artists in the galaxy. false advertising! we get owned by other melee professions. the damage we can do is awesome for PvE... we own that, but PvP, not as good.
But the main i'd like is special tka uniform or clothing!
Sanguinar -Light Elder Jedi
Xodarap777
Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:40 am
#104
Sleeping on it, I'm starting to rethink some things. The more we ask for, or the more unique the abilities or items we ask for, the less likely we are to receive. We will be left with nothing if we shoot too high.
Our own outfit? Can you imagine the flaming? Can you foresee how boring they will become after the first month of coolness? Every TK running around in the same robes. Why should we get our own look when no one else does?
It seems to me that people on these boards want TKs to be as "uber" as they are in the expanded universe! This is a game, guys, not a book. There is a need for balance! Bringing us over master brawler doesn't bring in balance. Even if it required more SP, if it was that much better, everyone would become one -- at least all the brawlers would. That's not balanced, and you aren't thinking MMO. Get your heads out of the clouds or all we get is the nerf bat for our pride.
I've been asking for a high dodge-type modifier that doesn't work with armor on. While that's still my wish, I realize a few things about its implementation: first, it would be the only such no-armor modifier for any class; second, it would be tough to keep it high enough to warrant being armorless, yet low enough not to be "uber" (God, I hate that word), which would take another few months of testing. I would still personally ask the devs for this, but my final wish will be fair, balanced and simple:
Please, just fixdefensive acuity. It doesn't work, and everyone else gets something that does!
That's not asking for too much, is it?
Message Edited by Xodarap777 on 06-25-2004 11:53 AM