Commando Archive
Thread: Some Friendly Testing Advice for TH and other Devs...You'll quickly change your mind!
Does that mean you are going to give better options for mind healing?
Thunderheart wrote:
Anything that can be done and NOT un-done is unfair.
"Also, Commandos arent supposed to be invulnerable to all other professions. A lot of the fun of PvP in this game is picking your team."
You ever faced a group of 5 riflemen and 2 cm's...... our side had half of the professions in the game and i don't think we ever even touched them. when u pick your team pick riflemen and have them spam mind shots... well actually its a one hit kill so tehy don't really have to spam it. and don't forget the mind poison.
Xerses
You ever faced a group of 5 riflemen and 2 cm's...... our side had half of the professions in the game and i don't think we ever even touched them. when u pick your team pick riflemen and have them spam mind shots... well actually its a one hit kill so tehy don't really have to spam it. and don't forget the mind poison.
So the simple counter is to have the BH stick an eyeshot on all of the riflemen, stay outside of 40m to avoid the CM grenades as you do so. Then have a few melee professions who are doped up with muongold, having eatten/drank some mind enhancing foods/drinks and have spent the last 10 minutes having thie rmind further buffed by an entertainer. The rifleman and combat medics wouldn't last 5 mins especially if you have a couple doctors on hand as well. Like TH said, every attack has a counter at the moment except flame DOTs.
Actually I'm a master Doc.....and I know there are a lot of MD out there that hide from people....I do it myself. The main reason we do it, it because more times then not we get treated like crap, under paid....if paid at all, and have to deal with little whiney babies 99% of the time....all while being in tell hell. When I do where my MD Tag, I probably average about 60 tells a minute...thats 1 tell a second. So if mind bleed is your issue which sorry, but it can be cured, and odd are there is a NOVICE MEDIC stand right next to you that can cure it....maybe you need to think about that. And start treating the medic/Doc classes with some sort of respect...you woundn't have this Mind Bleed problem. Not here to flame anyone, just saying....we hide best people treat us like Sh*t. Something to think about.
Formica wrote:
Morlach wrote:
Thunderheart wrote:
Anything that can be done and NOT un-done is unfair.
you mean like mind damage?
/smirk
Oh, snap.
Thunderheart:
I've been following the whole debate closely and was initially very much against your and the devs current positions on the Flame DoT and DoT stacking.
After reading your posts and agonizing over it some more, however, I now realize what the problem is. The reason I am so married to the (frankly, overpowered) effects of the DoT is that it is all we have. I've been a Master Commando since early October or so, and was one in beta as well. It wasn't until the introduction of the flame DoT that the class became in any way effective in PvE or PvP.
When you look at most combat professions in the game, each has an array of useful skills that are peppered throughout the skill tree. That is just not the case with Commando though. We have one and only one skill that currently supports my investment of 169 skill points. That skill is the ability to use the flame DoT. Heavy weapons are too expensive, too slow and too inaccurate to be useful (except, in the case of using Rocket Launchers against turrets--and even then I find using Fan Shot and a decent Launcher Pistol to be almost as good, on a dps basis, and without the crippling HAM costs of the RL). On top of that, the HAR and grenades are utterly worthless (the grenades are useful for grinding combat XP, I admit, but having maxed out my character, I have no need to grind anything any more--otherwise grenades are in every way inferior to the flamethrower).
So though I am a Master Commando, and though Master Commando has always been what I have wanted to be, from Beta 3 onward, I am forced to admit that I relyalmost entirelyon onlyone of thetwelvedifferent weapons made available to the Commando, the flame thrower.
While the Flame DoT is overpowered, that DoT is the single return Master Commandos see on their 169 skill point investment. Anything that weakens it, then, is a direct attack on all the time I have put into this profession.
So what is the answer? To eave the far too powerful DoT in place? Well, no, I can see what that doesn't work, but the devs should consider that if the must nerf this aspect of the Commando class, that they offer Commandos a carrot at the same time to salve the pain.
Perhaps they could finally fix thespeed and accuracymodifiers on the HAR, perhaps they could try to adjust grenades to make them at least somewhat useful (my suggestion for a quick would begiving weaponsmiths the schematics for the grenade enhancers Commandos used to be able to craft), perhaps they could just re-add a cert for the Beam Rifle (even though we'd have no specials with it (which would make the weaponsmiths happier too, as they still have the schematic)), perhaps you could finally fix the titles at the top of each tree, as how hard can that be.
The point is though, that if you must nerf the DoT, then you have to keep in mind that we are one-trick-ponies--but not any old one-trick-ponies--we're one-trick ponies that invested a lot of skill points in that one trick.Though I love this profession and desperately want to remain a Master Commando, in light of the proposed changes, even I am considering whether my skill points are being well spent. Once I get Flame Single 2, can I really say that it's worth an investment of 43 more skill points just to get the benefits of Master Commando? Without DoT stacking (and even with it), that's a pretty tough sell. Forty-three skill points applied to other professions can net me a lot of benefits (like, I can get Novice medic and two while skill lines under it, or TKA and two and a half skill lines in that profession).
We all know that you have to shoot our pony, but if you could throw us a bone as you pull the trigger, it might go a long way to making us feel better about slogging through this very expensive profession, as the minimaxers have been making fun of us for a long while now
"1. There is a combat balance underway / spamming will mostly be a thing of the past"
sorry TH, this is completely incorrect. no matter what you guys do, spamming specials will always be done. Oh, that you may put the ham cost so bad that you wont be able to spam endlessly is one thing, but you can bet that if I can spam a special 5 times in a row, I WILL spam it in my first shots. As in all pvp-enabled games whoever hits first and hardest FIRST will win. spamming will always be there.
Unless of course, you copy FFXII's 'renkei' system to fire off specials, but I seriously doubt this will happen in SWG.
"2. There is a PvP balance coming up next"
and that hole on the ozone layer keeps getting bigger too.
"3. Mind Bleeds / other Dots have been balanced"
Ah yes, no bleed stacking. Excellent way of balancing stuff. I mean, instead of putting bleed resist mods you just slash the possible bleed damage in half. What will you guys do when the players find out all they need is the highest damage possible gun to fire their single bleed with to do about the same damage as the pre-stacked bleeds? Anyway, imo, a pointless fix on something that was never an issue.
"4. HAM costs changing"
an answer with no information in it. So ill skip this.
"5. Versus any ranged profession = no dice. Professions are neither "classes" nor is any one class supposed to have "everything""
TH, proffessions are classes. They each have their own different way of fighting and applying their damage. No, one class is not supposed to have 'everything', but every class should have capabilities equivalent to their role and the points spent in the proffession. With that said, please justify master marksman + unarmed4+commando proffession mastery being overall weaker and less damaging than a singletree baseproffession+master eliteproffession.
"6. I see Commandos drop Pistoleers all the time. The Pistoleers fret over the fact that they arent as powerful as other elite profession."
No, you see pistoleers that let a commando inside 16m drop them. You would see the same if it was any melee proffession getting inside 16m. To give you an idea, as a commando you can burst run or jog away from a master melee proffession and kite him and win when using an acid rifle. Is the commando overpowered? Or will you just nerf the HAR because of this? Do not confuse player actions for actual capability/vulnerabilities found in each proffession.
"Fire DoTs arean unstoppable DoT."
unless you are adoctor or have medic first aidor tka meditate2 (which cant be used during combat btw)so are bleeds, poisons and diseases. This means we will get a poison/disease/bleed extinguisher too?
"Anything that can be done and NOT un-done is unfair."
in who'se point of view? those who have the deed done to them or those who'se deedsare un-done from?fairnessmeans both sides areequally taken into account.I didn't see any SOE taking into account or asking for feedback from the commando forums beforedoing the deed. Twice now. 2.5xmelee penalty and now the current flamer nerf. Can you un-do what has been done or do we keep playing this slip&slideroutine? when will this 'fairness' thing apply to the commando proffession?
"When you consider combat items, try to think of them as they will be and not as they are"
id say you should have to consider combat items as they are UNTIL they become what they will be. I again point you to the 2.5x melee penalty. You think it was enjoyable to be a commando during that month or so we had that thing on us? Now do you think it will be fun for commandos to have their ONLY working weapon nerfed out of existence for the what? month or 2 it will take for the 'rest' of the combat items to be taken into account? Chefs and Bio Engineers had their proffessions practically revamped in ALL aspects in 1 publish. This is what the commando needs. A full fledged fix in one shot, not screw them for months at a time until one item out of the dozens that are messed up get fixed one at a time. Like industrial scotch tape firmly strapped to your hairy crotch. will you peel it slowly or all in 1 fast swipe?
That is very correct, folks are forgetting about the kind of power they'll have once those weapons are fixed. The HAR alone is going to be very popular in PvE situations, the flamer will be turned into the general purpose heavy infantry weapon and grenades will become very popular once they fix them. The fact is that grenades have the most potential to be powerful, alot of them have AP qualities. Even the humble thermal detonator has AP3 ability I think and has far more of a kick than anything else in the game. If you threw that into a group of people in PvP you'd make a sizable dent in them reguardless of what protection they had, plus there is NO OTHER profession in the game which has AoE damaging weapons with AP qualities.
Fix the grenades and complaints about HAR and the Flamer needing armor pericing qualities will vanish along with complaints about the DoTs. The thing to remember folks its not going to be a case of burning them down in the near future, it's about blowing them up 
sorry TH, this is completely incorrect. no matter what you guys do, spamming specials will always be done. Oh, that you may put the ham cost so bad that you wont be able to spam endlessly is one thing, but you can bet that if I can spam a special 5 times in a row, I WILL spam it in my first shots. As in all pvp-enabled games whoever hits first and hardest FIRST will win. spamming will always be there.
I can't be sure but I have a recollection that specials won't be damage dealing so much anymore but will rather have status effects. Sure you can spam one special 5 times over, however if I can remembering correctly it'll simply cause a little extra damage from your normal shot but end up applying the status effect several times which isn't going to have any additional benefit. Also he said it would LIMIT spamming, not totally wipe it out.
TH, proffessions are classes. They each have their own different way of fighting and applying their damage. No, one class is not supposed to have 'everything', but every class should have capabilities equivalent to their role and the points spent in the proffession. With that said, please justify master marksman + unarmed4+commando proffession mastery being overall weaker and less damaging than a singletree baseproffession+master eliteproffession.
Correct, professions are classes with a specific role in the game. A commando gets access to all of the really heavy range support weaponry plus a few basic personal weapons. That doesn't mean they should dominate in all forms of combat long, medium or short range. Infact you only have to look at the commando profession that it's role is to stand at the back of a group of people causing damage to the target and applying as much damage as possible while trying to stay out of the line of fire. Pistoleers are the ones who are designed to get stuck in at close and medium range with their rapid specials causing specks of damage, the carbines sit just behind that with their role at providing status effects and supression fire. Rifleman sit back with the commando at long range simply punching through the armor and picking off induvidual targets, they're primary role however is to 'soften' up the targets before the main attackand deal with other snipers which is why they have alot of skills aimed at counter sniping and concealed attacks (which is the ability used to soften up targets first)
It's not about overall power in all situations, the commando is about power as part of a supporting role in a group. The whole reason our weapons are so inaccurate is because we're supposed to be stationary when firing them and the only way to do that is if the enemy is busy with someone else. Throw in a Squad Leader with steady aim and the commando becomes even better.
There simply isn't any profession that is good at everything, people keep forgetting that and focus on what they use the profession for. Did it ever occour to you people you're not using the commando in a role it's suited to which is why you don't think it's powerful enough?
Thunderheart wrote:
Kiashia wrote:
fire dots not unstoppable, stand in water and fight a commando, now you have a new story.
Where would I do that on Tatooine?
And how many places are hundreds of meters away from water?
See TH, but after you implement fire extinguishers what do you have? Exactly the opposite (as in WAY WAY too far). A commando that is balanced with every other class (even though the skill point difference dictates otherwise) away from water, but really, really weak around water. I often have people stand in water when I am fighting...I get owned. You may be fixing one little issue with extinguishers, but you are screwing up the class in a majority of other situations.
Why don't you just limit the dot's effect to 1 minute long...it solves all the problems without extinguishers.
Barb-Wire wrote:
dizzy just needs to be removed period. KD is fine and it gives a moderate advantage to the person using it and landing it. dizzy is like the uncurable flame attack. it is totally unbalanced.
Dizzy-KD is my bane as well, I hate it. But it can be cured by a doctor or by grouping with a squad leader as they have a special that removes states such as dizzy.
I think dizzy should be nerfed by putting it on a timer, and making it go away a couple of seconds after you get knocked down. Even then it is probably too late against a TKM, but they have to have some strength. The part I really don't like is a 20m range on a melee move. Give me a break you want to hit someone 60 feet away without a weapon you have to use the force.