Commando Archive
Thread: Insulted by the T21
Oh yes and btw :
"I agree that the commando class is curretnly broken, and needs to be fixed. I think commando SHOULD be the ideal anti-vehicle class. But why don't we wait till there are VEHICLES IN THE GAME, BEFORE WE START WHINING THAT WE ARENT THE BEST AT DESTROYING THEM"
Your right I should pay for 6 months before my class has a purpose. Good idea.Also there are vehicles in the game: AT/ST Which has the same resist to blast(our heavy weapon) as it does to your energy rifle.
WHY IN THE HELL DO WE HAVE TO KEEP GOING OVER THE SAME **edit** POINTS AGAIN!!!!
OK drksensei said "A helmet has an ar of 1...Why again do you need ar 3 to counteract it? Fought many people with an AT/ST plate welded to their head? "
NO, when the T21 was AP 1 it was taking 5 to 6 shots to kill someone!!! with a 10s cooldown thats 50-60s of PvP combat!!!! THIS HAS BEEN SAID SEVERAL TIMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THEN YOU SAID
Your right I should pay for 6 months before my class has a purpose.
it was YOU commandos who self proclaimed your class as the anti-vehicle class NOT US RIFLEMAN you if you want to claim that you are and then claim that it is stupid to wait 6 month to actually be it, then FINE WITH ME but thats just **edit**ing stupid!!!!!!!!!
cydonia wrote:WHY IN THE HELL DO WE HAVE TO KEEP GOING OVER THE SAME **edit** POINTS AGAIN!!!!
Perhaps because the points are never adequately addressed by anyone - riflemen, commando, riflemen commando, other
Your right I should pay for 6 months before my class has a purpose.
I never said PAY, I said WAIT. Maybe you SHOULD cancel your subscription for 6 months, until this class is fixed (or however long it takes). That's up to you, not me. Don't try and shove that in my face like I'm responsible for that. The choice to play or not is YOUR decision, not mine.
Also there are vehicles in the game: AT/ST Which has the same resist to blast(our heavy weapon) as it does to your energy rifle.
Well it's THE ONLY vehicle in the game currently. I wouldn't expect them to have extensive anti vehicle capabilities in this game until vehicles become a LOT more common.
Bloodborn wrote:Ok so now a rifleman can take out ATST... hmm.. and according to the info I read if you attack a non armored foe with a AP3 weapon that's what? .75 bonus damage? wasn't player dam nerfed by 75% wouldn't that mean one hit kills again?
Boy if they don't do something for our class and soon thinking of switching to another class why should I waste all my time on a broken cog of shabby coding three blind mice would see faults in?
Actually AP3 vs Unarmored does +95.3125 to the "rolled" damage number, Then take that number and subtract it's resist percentage.
So your 600 dmg max rifle on a head shot hitting for 2400 damage (and don't say it's not possible my laser rifle can break 2k on head shots for the damage before AR comparisons) does 4688 dmg then you subtract the resist %... Oh vs a player in a 37% composite helmet (the type I make now) your 2400 dmg shot is 2 AP higher so only 56.25% more damage, so 3750 minus 37% so a paltry 2363 damage, now lets reduce that by the new 75% PVP reduction to yield a happy 591 damage. Not bad really. Till you consider our 2400 dmg flame thrower attack (we can dream, maybe the changes will bring it to this with flame single, but our delay is LONGER than a riflemans if we use that) does AP 0 so 756 before PVP reducion 189 afterwards... To a random pool. We are better off using a laser rifle or carbine than any of our weapons in most situations.
In creature combat I love my launcher pistol, the bleeds from it are great, but really in PVP it's not so hot.
Actually Philosopher your suggestion was we all shut up because vehicles are not yet in the game.I merely pointed out that was a slightly absurd suggestion.Besides the fact not all of our weapons are intedned for an anti-armor role.I was only "shoving it in your face" due to you shouting at us to "all stop whining" Also if you don't think AT/ST are becoming more prevalant you haven't been around lately.
The numbers posted address the fact that as you stated an ar of less than three totally renders your weapon ineffective against someone with a helmet.I found this odd as I regularly use a laser rifle(ar 2
against people in PvP and have very little trouble.Actually the numbers prove otherwise.You used a broad based generalization and shouting of something as a fact as a basis for your argument.You have referred to this "fact" at least 3 times so far as empirical evidence.Notice the lack of numbers in your post as well.The 75% reduction to PvP is having a larger effect on your damage than armor.
Most of us dont want the t21 "nerfed". Most of us would like to know why it has the same armor peircing as a rocket launcher.I think it troubles more people that they hot fixed it while telling us changing a weapons experience type had to wait for a patch.
Of course this is most likely a wasted post /shrug
I hope they nerf the **edit** out of the 1-21, when should a gun that fires lasers have armor piercing 3, besides that, once you get headshot 3 in rifleman you can dish out 2000 hits, solo a dewback, thats crazy this person is not even a master, all he needs is 1 box, no other weapon can even compete with that, and then they complain because melee is 3 times more effectice against them, lol, all they have to do is switch to another gun. Not to mention the fact that they dominate pvp, they can take out 3-5 people if they start at 64m, 2-3 people if they start at 30 or lower. If the dmg is not decreased, then they need to put a 20 second recharge rate on this gun, and it should have the same armor piercing as any other gun. And i would also like to say that not all commando weapons should have high armor piercing, for example the flame thrower definetly should not, it doesent even shoot something solid.
Shockir Osarif
Hi all, Bounty Hunter here.
Personally, I think it's stupid that AP weapons receive a bonus to damage for punching through the armor. Most sci-fi or modern-day/near-future RPGs have armor piercing ammo that is less affected by armor, but deals less damage once it gets through. Compare an AP round vs. a hollowpoint. The hollowpoint causes much more damage due to the mushrooming of the bullethead, whereas the AP round punches a simple hole through the target. However, the hollowpoint becomes useless against good armor, cause it simply doesn't penetrate. Those of you who are in theArmed Forcesaren't issued AP rounds to go shoot people with, because they don't do more damage to an unarmored target. S.W.A.T team members might use AP rounds on a more frequent basis, but Joe Cop has little to no use for them.
I believe that they should scrap the whole multiplier when your weapon's AP exceeds the target's AR. Instead, all heavy weapons should have an AP of 3, and a very high damage rating. That way they'd be just as effective on AR0 through AR3 targets. Who cares if you have armor when a flamethrower catches you on fire? Are they wearingthat burn-resistant foam that mattress companies use? I mean come on, how many shots does it take you to kill someone with a rocket launcher these days? The value of AP is too high under this current system, which is why laser carbine/rifle, and now T21, are the way to go.
I ran some numbers with my FWG5 that's 49-200 AP0, and my Scatter Pistol that's 122-183 AP1. Basically, I will only do more damage with the FWG5 if my target has 50+ more resistance to Acid than they do to Heat.
If they'd drop the damage increase multiplier from AP exceeding AR, then you wouldn't have the same weapons turn out on top in every situation. Right now, the 3 (non-commando) weapons that have APs over 1 do more damage in most situations than any other weapon no matter how good it is. They could then leave the T21 having a high AP so that it'll punch through any feeble helmet that's in the way, and increase the damage on Heavy Weapons by an order of magnitude.
I really feel for Commandos, since my Light Lightning Cannon made by a Master Weaponsmith using good materials is only about 110-173 AP1. I never use it to take on anything that has more than 800 or so in it's HAM. And it doesn't have charges. Non-charged Heavy Weapons should do major damage. Their accuracy and speed aren't modified by all the bonuses that you picked up on your way to Master Marksman.Your charged weapons should do insane damage. I don't use powerups anymore, since I burn through those 100 uses in less than 5 minutes. And they don't cost 50k apiece.
I don't see anything wrong with one-shot kills from a rocket launcher. At 5 charges each, that's 10k per shot on Corbantis. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. Heck, even if they're 50 charges, that's still 1k per shot. No other class has this type of disadvantage, and you don't even get the massive damage that should acompany this large of a drawback.
Itzic
ThePhilosopher wrote:Thanks Ibixat, you are one of the few others on here, that actually is willing you use NUMBERS and FACTS to make an argument. I agree with your analysis of the damages. I COMPLETELY AGREE that currently the rifleman is a stronger and more useful profession than Commando is. However, THAT IS NOT THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD. The topic is whether the T21 should have AP3 or not. I think the numbers you showed, prove that it DOES NEED AP3 in order to stay viable in PVP.
Is the Commando profession broken? Yes.
Does it have problems that need to be fixed? Yes.
Should Commandos have a role as an anti-vehicle, anti-armor profession? I think so.
Should most Commando weapons have high AP to assist in this role and make it viable? Definitely.
All of the above are relevant issues to this profession that need to be fixed, and I agree that all of those things should be done. However, NERFING THE AP3 ON THE T21 DOESN'T FIX ANY OF THOSE THINGS. ALL IT DOES IS BREAK THE RIFLEMAN PROFESSION. BREAKING ANOTHER PROFESSION DOES NOT FIX YOURS. THIS IS A VERY SIMPLE CONCEPT.
When did I ask for a T21 nerf, I just pointed out the math that someone else didn't quite get. Please don't nerf the T21... I plan to use one when my guild goes Krayt hunting, or to kill AT-ST's since my own commando weapons won't cut it.
Anyway. Nerf the freaking AP > AR = bonues crap, as others have stated time and time again it's ridiculous, when the DPS progression on the guns seems to completely ignore that some are given AP 0 1 2 or evne 3 it just gets stupid. Why use a DXR6 at AP 1 when a laser carbine is AP2... Why use [insert any weaponname here] when their is a gun that boosts it's Damage by 56% vs most targets and 25% vs a lot of others.
This thread has gotten way out of hand and off topic. As I read this it has nothing to do with the rifleman as intended. Personally, I wouldnt like to see the rifleman nerfed again at all. I tried it and in game reality they are hindered a great deal. Even with all their specials they really only had one that was nerfed in the last patch. The conceal shot was awesome but after the big patch no matter what I shot I was instantly discovered every time. Not once in a while but everytime. That was IMO the best special they had because I could conceal shot head1 and head2 the rest was almost over. But all was at a huge cost of mind that I counterd with a good drug. Now with that said, after reading all the posts and flames, lets get back to the real issue here. I dont care what other classes can and can't do. The fact that the Dev's can hotfix the rifleman is the "REAL SLAP IN THE FACE" when we have been told that hotfixes can't be done for us. Commando's have been in waiting room since the Demo came out and we feel like they just removed the door and there's no way out. Our fixes haven't even reached test center yet and according to "HOLO" we won't see any changes till they areand the test center doesn't even have the people to test. Two days ago they got their first Master Weaponsmith but there weren't any resources to build the weapons needed to test and to my Knowledge (may be incorrect) they don't have any commandos to test them. As far the Tactical side of our tree, IMO, I thinks it worthless. I don't see that much of defense added and we get grenades that dislocate our shoulders in order to use and the only way to go up it is with combat points which are the hardest points to accumulate in the game. Someone tell me how many low level enemies it takes to accumulate 400,000 combat points not to mention the 4,000,000 XP points.
Rifleman, this really isn't about your T21 or the BH or the Pistoleer. It's about Balance and right now the commando's are the Joke of SWG and the lack of response from the Dev's just adds to our frustration. As everyone has mentioned, we are suppose to be the damage kings, but what we are right now are the Naboo lawn killers with fancy graphics except for the acid rifle that sounds like it just farted at trigger pull. I am waiting un-patiently for the fix but my patience is running out. If this next patch doesn't do great things for our class I will look at other options.
As a final note to all, these folks are right about this being the hardest class to obtain. What other class has to master one tree the marksman, complete the unarmed section of Brawler, collect 40,000 combat points to obtain Novice status and move up the pistoleer tree as far as possible in order to get "ANY" specials we can use with our Launcher Pistol because our class doesn't give us any special moves beyond Marksman? Name it! There is none!
(riflemen can dispute this all they want, with AP3 it's a vehicle killer)
Take my challenge. Go take a T21 and try to take out an AT- ST with it. You will haveyour entire mind pooldepleted within 10 shots,and have done almost no damage to the AT-ST. Then, if it hasn't already happened, the AT-ST is going to FREAKING SMOKE YOU. Then come back here and tell me it's a "vehicle killer."
ThePhilosopher wrote:
(riflemen can dispute this all they want, with AP3 it's a vehicle killer)
Take my challenge. Go take a T21 and try to take out an AT- ST with it. You will have your entire mind pool depleted within 10 shots, and have done almost no damage to the AT-ST. Then, if it hasn't already happened, the AT-ST is going to FREAKING SMOKE YOU. Then come back here and tell me it's a "vehicle killer."
Funny, if you Mind shot 1 and 2 the AT-ST I am willing to bet it's going to drop like a rock. Why on earth would your 10 shots be anything other than at least 2 to start the bleeds.