Commando Archive
Thread: February ends and still no Beta
Page 6 of 6
garvin
Tue Mar 01, 2005 3:28 pm
#66
Since the CU effects both Combat and Non-Combat professions, and since it's been reported that we should be able to test Jedi and FS related characters on the Sandbox (at least it was reported a while back...never know what will change next), I would assume that FS will be effected as well...in fact, in some ways, I know it will be...just not sure how or to what degree both indirectly and directly...
nerfherder321 wrote:
now when you say that...what does Force Sensitive come under? neither? or one of them
garvin wrote:
Latenighter wrote:
garvin wrote:
As for renaming it yet again...you never know...as I said, I'm surprised they aren't just calling it SWG 2.0...that's pretty much what it is...nothing will be the same (and I pretty much mean everything is changing)...
Even non-combat professions?
The combat changes effect non-combat professions both indirectly...and directly
...That's all I'll say on that...
StarNick
Tue Mar 01, 2005 3:51 pm
#67
Woo boy, my cable hasn't crapped out in the time I was able to read all the new posts in this thread alone, plus my nasty head cold seems to be "subdued" for now...
With Subscription...
I have personally seen the devestation on SWG populations with just my guild as an example. Within a month of WoW, we barely had 5 people logged on at peak hours...it was horrible. However, I have seen things improving recently...on Chilastra at least...there are finally crowds again in theed/coronet, even during off hours. Its not as bustling as it once was, but we have been seeing new people coming in, as well as old timers coming back. Nearly all the original members of my guild have agreed to garvin's 2-3 new players for every old one lost, long before I started seeing that it did in fact seem true. Nevertheless...SWG still has a while until it becomes how it originally was... 
With my own opinions...
The only thing im restricted to are these two things: 1) I need to represent you guys and 2) Im under NDA concerning the Correspondent Forums. I speak my own mind, have been and always will. And since Ive become correspondent, you could even say it has gotten me into some trouble. However, my own opinions don't get in the way of the community's needs and wants...remember folks, Im still a paying customer...not some lame SOE Poster boy just because I have some fancy blueified name now! Regardless, I have perhaps one of the best jobs on this forum....representing y'all. I love this community and all who post here, and I almost feel duty bound to get your ideas and concerns to the devs and fight for you in the correspondent trenches.
With concerns...and doubt...
Unfortunately, I became correspondent at a very intense moment. Needless to say, all we can really do (myself and the Testers included) is wait. No new issues...nothing really new at all, save waiting for the CU. For the testers its the profession CU documents and the sandbox itself. For myself its the sandbox and new information regarding how our long-standing fixes will be fixed by it all. It sucks, to honestly put it.
With "praise" for the CU...
Garvin hit it right on the nail. So far, what the devs have shown the correspondents...looks VERY promising. When I first became Corr, I had a list of all our issues in word perfect. Under each of them, a big red lettered "CU" and if that issue will be fixed or not. Two thirds I had listed "unknown", with about 3-4 labelled fixed, and the rest either out of the scope or simply no (Bomb droids anyone?). Needless to say, I was worried...and I, under no circumstances, wanted anyone to think that the CU was some "Holy Grail" for commandos after reviewing the available information I had and our issues.
With information from Blixtev on such mentionables as "New Grenade Design"...I was feeling more confident about our issues. After the new documents were released (to the Corr forums), hell I was exstatic! It really did look as if most of our issues, if not all would -actually- be fixed, or better yet...downright improved.
Of course, this would sound like praise. But im still skepitical on taking their word unquestionably...Ill finally and ultimately believe it till I see it on the sandbox, which is a sentiment I see from some of you guys (for obvious reasons of course). However, what I see so far...I like, and I think most of you would too...
With SOE Communication...
It still sucks, just re-read what I said above and you'll see. With the old CU documents, I was unsure if we'll have even half of our top issues fixed. In fact, for our Top 5 it seemed that only 3 of them would actually be fully functional, with the other 2 requiring further revamps after the CU. You all know how frustrating that is, waiting over a year since promised...and seeing it may have to be fixed -after- the CU.
However, when the devs promised better communication...anyone noticed that there were more interactions with bug threads and the like? I think thats what SOE ment by better comunication. Ironically...it seems with each publish, they still break something...or leave bugs in (*cough* FS Ranged Mods *cough*)
After 1.5 years, I think we all deserve a huge explanation and an end to the secrecy.
Fully agree...theres still things we don't know, which we'll only really find out in the Sandbox. That poses a problem, as we dont want to waste our time testing something thats borked and if we fully understood how it theoritically wouldve worked...we may have seen prior that it wouldn't work. This would leave a possibility that it may be left in, and taken care of Post-CU....for Garvin, myself, and all the sandbox testers this is our worst possible nightmare with commando. Yes, I do agree the devs need some more explaining. Yes, I do agree also that in the time it has taken to revise the CU documents, the devs simply could have written more...detailing changes to smaller systems (such as grenades...plus more explainations IN GENERAL).
But until the Sandbox, we unfortunately have to take their word on it. Does this mean I have to like it (or the testers/glowies for that matter?)...hell no, Im as pissed, peeved, and frustrated as any of you. It is true, that some of my faith has been restored with the recent flow of information in the correspondent/CU forums...but I aint letting my guard down, and standing by while SOE screws our profession over again. WE know whats right for Commando. Thats why Im here, and garvin before me....Lordseckmoth before him, Mastersynn before him...and Garibaldi_di_alia before any of us. Im still optimistic that our dreams will finally be relized with the Sandbox...and if they're not, well...then we'll do something about it, you can count on that.
I probably have more to say, but Im getting dizzy again...
Edit: Btw on a note of Pessimism...I agree with Garvin. I strive to be 100% honest with you all, not covering anything up....when Im opimistic and think commandos may very well have a very bright bundle o love coming with the CU...I mean it. Theres a lot messed up (communication for example), and many things that are still frustrating (Delays...damn them plus the secrecy)...I try not to be pessimistic about anything (motto in life for me). But on the other hand, Im not emitting a false happy face for you all. Im striving for the best communication I possibly can give for you guys. I encourage optimisim, as in the long run...it does help. Ultimately...it is what you do with that optimisim. Frustrationg and pessimism to meare different, when you comminicate your frustrations in a professional manner (which I have to do on the corr forums)...you would be surprised how the Devs respond.
Message Edited by StarNick on 03-01-2005 06:02 PM
neinnunb
Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:39 pm
#68
Although Im not a commando, I lurk your forums allot because Garvin has to what ive noticed been the most 'informative' Correspondent when it comes to giving hints on the CU or any kind of progress (or no progress) behind the scenes. Now with aeuralis' pessimistic comments I find it more interesting to balance both views and I value both equally as it gives me a balanced view on things.
But I wanted to give my own opinions on a few things that has been said here. It is true allot of our long time friends have either been away from SWG or have jumped ship. My guild went to about 8 or 10 active members to four, with two of those now barely loggin in. Most of those that left are in WoW or have tried it, but they also say they will return eventually.
So the numbers of veterans may be low, but the subscription numbers keep steady. Part of my analysis on the population comes from this web page. WoW subscriptions are now at 1.25 million and keep rising sharply. SWG's largest subscription was around 300k. Take all these numbers of coarse with a grain of salt. If you notice the graph you will see Lineage I and II are the king of MMO world, but if any of you have played that game (as I have) you will think why would that game be so popular when it is so tedious to do anything. You think SWG is a grind, I invite you to try Lineage.
What im trying to say is, the subscription count for a game compared to another does not tell me which is better. If you ask me, allot of people who play WoW are because their system cant play SWG or EQ2 effectively. You wonder why EQ1 still has subscriptions at all! There are also obviously allot of people who enjoy the fantasy genre more than the science fiction. Maybe it has to do with Lord of the Rings being such great movies and the latest Star Wars movies being sub-bar and laughed at by critics and fans alike? Im sure there is more to it but worth thinking about.
In any case, SWG's subscription rates seem to maintain an even score with a few ups and downs, but overall the same. In the last couple of months, when I started playing SWG more often again, ive made allot of new friends, most of which have started the game only several months ago. I do a /who every so often and count how many people are around. I have noticed a very noticable increase lately in my counts. Coronet is in my opinion not a great way to judge the server population. As some have pointed out, JTL has enabled people to bypass Coronet as a central travel destination and the solo-group money grind was put to a stop, so people are making money in other ways like space missions and selling the loot to the chassis dealers which pays very very well... and no buffs required thank goodness!
As for the CU = SWG v2.0, I say GREAT! If they have been spending all this time, I expect SWG to be completely re-made and be like a new version. The devs never intended it to be so encompassing, but the floodgates of suggestions or dreams of a perfect combat system was evident on the forums, they had to go back and bring out a bigger cannon to satisfy our vision. If you guys remember in the original Combat Balance announcement, TH said we would get a "new table". This to many read: "SWG v2.0".
I think it will create the sence of novelty again. The major difference in the original Beta and what I suppose the CU beta will be like, is we can use the frogs (character builders) to test out each profession as it should have been tested originally. Most of us never got to develop our beta characters to the full extent with the constant wipes and see all the problems that we have now. Needless to say, Doctor profession was put in at the ends of Beta and healing was nurfed or 'bandaided' with removal of mind healing. It opened up a new set of problems with it as you know if you cant target mind in PvP your pretty useless. They were also running late on schedule for release. Thankfully, the CU does not appear to have a strict deadline with Lucasarts.
I do hope that this 'annoucement' that will come this week will not be another "Great Expectations" like we had last summer. That will drive me to the cancel button if they do that and re-subscribe whenever the hell the CU comes. (first one made me cancle my combat alt)
But I wanted to give my own opinions on a few things that has been said here. It is true allot of our long time friends have either been away from SWG or have jumped ship. My guild went to about 8 or 10 active members to four, with two of those now barely loggin in. Most of those that left are in WoW or have tried it, but they also say they will return eventually.
So the numbers of veterans may be low, but the subscription numbers keep steady. Part of my analysis on the population comes from this web page. WoW subscriptions are now at 1.25 million and keep rising sharply. SWG's largest subscription was around 300k. Take all these numbers of coarse with a grain of salt. If you notice the graph you will see Lineage I and II are the king of MMO world, but if any of you have played that game (as I have) you will think why would that game be so popular when it is so tedious to do anything. You think SWG is a grind, I invite you to try Lineage.
What im trying to say is, the subscription count for a game compared to another does not tell me which is better. If you ask me, allot of people who play WoW are because their system cant play SWG or EQ2 effectively. You wonder why EQ1 still has subscriptions at all! There are also obviously allot of people who enjoy the fantasy genre more than the science fiction. Maybe it has to do with Lord of the Rings being such great movies and the latest Star Wars movies being sub-bar and laughed at by critics and fans alike? Im sure there is more to it but worth thinking about.
In any case, SWG's subscription rates seem to maintain an even score with a few ups and downs, but overall the same. In the last couple of months, when I started playing SWG more often again, ive made allot of new friends, most of which have started the game only several months ago. I do a /who every so often and count how many people are around. I have noticed a very noticable increase lately in my counts. Coronet is in my opinion not a great way to judge the server population. As some have pointed out, JTL has enabled people to bypass Coronet as a central travel destination and the solo-group money grind was put to a stop, so people are making money in other ways like space missions and selling the loot to the chassis dealers which pays very very well... and no buffs required thank goodness!
As for the CU = SWG v2.0, I say GREAT! If they have been spending all this time, I expect SWG to be completely re-made and be like a new version. The devs never intended it to be so encompassing, but the floodgates of suggestions or dreams of a perfect combat system was evident on the forums, they had to go back and bring out a bigger cannon to satisfy our vision. If you guys remember in the original Combat Balance announcement, TH said we would get a "new table". This to many read: "SWG v2.0".
I think it will create the sence of novelty again. The major difference in the original Beta and what I suppose the CU beta will be like, is we can use the frogs (character builders) to test out each profession as it should have been tested originally. Most of us never got to develop our beta characters to the full extent with the constant wipes and see all the problems that we have now. Needless to say, Doctor profession was put in at the ends of Beta and healing was nurfed or 'bandaided' with removal of mind healing. It opened up a new set of problems with it as you know if you cant target mind in PvP your pretty useless. They were also running late on schedule for release. Thankfully, the CU does not appear to have a strict deadline with Lucasarts.
I do hope that this 'annoucement' that will come this week will not be another "Great Expectations" like we had last summer. That will drive me to the cancel button if they do that and re-subscribe whenever the hell the CU comes. (first one made me cancle my combat alt)
Message Edited by neinnunb on 03-01-2005 10:42 PM
StarNick
Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:49 pm
#69
Yeah, I agree with numbers not really telling the whole story of all things related. However, on Chilastra when WoW came out...we all noticed a considerable hit, but its also natural. We're seeing new people coming back, all but 2 of my guildmates that left for WoW are now back...as they got sick of forced grouping after lvl 20 (some ppl like that playstyle, most SWG players don't...a thought all sandbox testers need to keep in the back of their minds...)
Maybe you're right with JTL thinning static city populations, could very well be true (and helpful at the same time)....but we also need mechanisims to help us find people if this is the case...
Overall, excellent post neinnunb 
Message Edited by StarNick on 03-01-2005 10:50 PM
neinnunb
Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:44 am
#70
Thanks Starnick
About SWG players prefering solo content... I think that is because the game has evolved into what it is now (99% soloable) so therefore it attracks and keeps people of that playstyle which was never intended, while group players are turned off by it. We have everyone playing as a hermit, which evidently deviates considerably from the classic MUD or MMO blueprint. In general all MMO's have forced group interactivity on everyone at some point or another. I do think it should be (level speaking) way up there unlike other MMO's where they start enforcing group play earlier. (Personally I think speaking in SWG terms, groups should be needed on anything above CL(level) 45 or 50. Rancors = you need a group.)
So put yourself in SOE's mind, when you want to attract the MMO style players which seem to like the group play that EQ and WoW has. Looks obvious to me which path they will take, which is as I said the way SWG was meant to be played when it comes to high level content, NOT soloable. "Hey if it works for blizzard then we need to do the same!" is what I think the devs are telling eachother right now.
The answer is unavoidable. Its already written by TH: "Tough NPCs and creatures will require groups to take them down". Thats the reason the majority of the loot revamp will come during or right after the CU. They dont want a solo character taking all the best loot the game will have to offer.
Theres gonna be allot of kicking and screaming from the soloists im sure but will attract the other playstyle back into the game... and there are allot more of those.
About SWG players prefering solo content... I think that is because the game has evolved into what it is now (99% soloable) so therefore it attracks and keeps people of that playstyle which was never intended, while group players are turned off by it. We have everyone playing as a hermit, which evidently deviates considerably from the classic MUD or MMO blueprint. In general all MMO's have forced group interactivity on everyone at some point or another. I do think it should be (level speaking) way up there unlike other MMO's where they start enforcing group play earlier. (Personally I think speaking in SWG terms, groups should be needed on anything above CL(level) 45 or 50. Rancors = you need a group.)
So put yourself in SOE's mind, when you want to attract the MMO style players which seem to like the group play that EQ and WoW has. Looks obvious to me which path they will take, which is as I said the way SWG was meant to be played when it comes to high level content, NOT soloable. "Hey if it works for blizzard then we need to do the same!" is what I think the devs are telling eachother right now.
The answer is unavoidable. Its already written by TH: "Tough NPCs and creatures will require groups to take them down". Thats the reason the majority of the loot revamp will come during or right after the CU. They dont want a solo character taking all the best loot the game will have to offer.
Theres gonna be allot of kicking and screaming from the soloists im sure but will attract the other playstyle back into the game... and there are allot more of those.
Samun
Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:14 am
#71
Latenighter wrote:
E-web?
Calling in orbital bombardment?
Skill to use all ranged weapons proficiently?
Radar invisibility?
Howitzers?
Foxholes?
Underslung Carbine?
This list can go on and on and on and on and on.
But you get the picture.
Bascially, Commandos need to be something like this.
Hardcore. 
[ PHO | Kauri ]
Tlk
Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:37 am
#73
Interesting discussion, but I really don't understand why we as a community should br getting excited over the CURB simply because it is being alluded to that the developers are actually taking the "professional approach" to software development.
Obviously there are some great people in the partial know that are happy, and I would like to think they are happy for good reasons and I will be also. But I fail to see the reason behind the secrecy. This is not proprietary info. We are not asking to see how SOE develops software, tests it internally. We simply would like to know where they are planning on taking the game that we are paying for right now. Also, if the internal testing for "bugs" was suppose to minimize the bugs in alpha, then I am surprised if they ever even considered not doing that. Who would not test there product for functionality before more advanced testing? After 1.5 years, I think we all deserve a huge explanation and an end to the secrecy.
Here's hoping that my beam rifle will finally work
garvin
Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:59 am
#74
I also call it the CU (when I'm not refering to it as CUFKATCRFKATCB....I've never referred to it as "CURB"...that started over in the CU forum by one of the Correspondents I think...personally, to be honest, I don't think CURB does the Combat Upgrade justice...it kinda feels like it's being trivalized...to me, the CU is actually more of a game re-write even more then an Ugrade....As someone put it earlier...it's almost like we are seeing SWG 2.0...
nerfherder321 wrote:
ok then garvin, i expect the CU (why am i the ONLY one who calls it the CU still.. when did this.. CURB stuff start?) to be perfect then, if not... well you are in trouble
StarNick
Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:29 am
#75
Yeah, SOE is going to have to walk a very fine tightrope between the two playstyles. On one aspect, we can't have the soloing if mobs like krayt dragons, but on the other hand, we shouldn't require a group to take out one NS. Forced grouping at a low level is not necessarily good, and has turned off a considerable amount of friends who went to WoW. A solo game, plus a small group game in SWG is needed and should be preserved, while having the regular big group game prevalent in other MMO's. Balance....
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