Commando Archive
Thread: 2.5x penalty, REMOVE THE UNARMED REQUIREMENT
Sorulis, I think that what people still dont realize, including yourself, is that unarmed4 only gives the commando +2 melee defense. The 'melee toughness' we had pre-nerf did not come from that +2 melee defense, it came from our heavy weapons being coded as 'melee' weapons. Remember they used to say 'you swing' when firing the flame/HAR..
In this game, the melee modifiers (aka, 2.5x) is determined by the weapon you wield. Not your melee defense mods.
That is why, even pre-nerf patch, you could be master commando and equip a rifle and BAM! you would die like a rifleman.
Now that SOE has FIXED our weapons as being ranged and not melee (and that was a bug, although i think it was just SOE's way of avoiding programming a new weapon ruleset for heavy weapons when the game was launched..now back to bite them in the arse), commando no longer receives whatever melee damage penalty mod brawler weapons get (i think its 1x).. but now receives the rifleman penalty of 2.5x.
Now that you know this, why do you want to keep unarmed? We get no combat skills from it (when was the last time you punched a baz nitch in the face instead of sticking the flamethrower down its throat and pulling the switch?), unarmed 4 does not give us any melee defense mods worth mentioning (+2 , oh yeah that helps sooo much *sarcasm*) and we have to sink 29 points to get unarmed4.
Have SOE modify our melee damage penatly on the heavy weapons? Sure! EXCELLENT. But that still has NOTHING to do with unarmed. Melee damage penalty is based on WEAPON being held, in our case, heavy weapons.
In my opinion, removing unarmed4 requirement would definetely balance us having 2.5x penalty with commando weapons..because it gives us more points to get skills with other weapons so we dont have to go into melee range unless we see the opportunity to do so safely. The flamethrower is a dangerous assault weapon, for both the attacker and the victim. As it should be, it is now. But now, commandos have no other choice BUT to use the **edit** flamer since we dont have much other weapon skills to resort to...and no other special attacks to use!.
You know, I actually took Commando because I thought it would be cool to have access to such a wide variety of weapons. After I became a Commando, it was only then I discovered that all of those 'cool' weapons were disposable and ridiculously expensive. On top of that, the HAR rifle line didn't actually work save for the specials, and we had no skills to use the Launcher Pistol save for what we got in the marksman tree.
I will be a 0-0-4-0 Commando, but not because I want to be leet or uber, but because this class is seriously broken. I'm sticking around because I think we are due for some love. I think Commando would be an excellent and very fun class once the Dev's remove their heads from their.... well, you know.
Sorry, that last line wasn't exactly constructive, but really, what do they expect at this point?
I agree that Unarmed 4 should be removed if the 2.5 damage multiplier stays in. No Dev can possibly argue the logic of the change they made no matter how cool their Pie Chart or Powerpoint Presentation is. However, I don't believe Master Marksman should be the only requirement unless they are willing to totally redo the class (which frankly probably should be done anyway, although it won't happen). I think Engineering 4 would be a fantastic idea if it lead to Commando's being able to construct their own disposable weapons.
"I agree that Unarmed 4 should be removed if the 2.5 damage multiplier stays in"
Read my post again.
Unarmed 4 has *nothing* to do with the 2.5x damage multiplier. Damage multiplier is tied to the weapon at hand, not skill trees.
Since the beggining unarmed4 did nothing for us. When the heavy weapons were changed from being considered 'melee' (you swing your flamethrower at XX) to ranged (you shoot your flamethrower at XX) that we became penalized with the 2.5x.
The 2.5x is very extreme for a class who'se only special is at melee range..but the weapon fires out to 64m without special. That makes us a Ranged Class, not a melee class. So the penalty should stay, albeit perhaps a bit reduced (1.5x?). But unarmed4 has to go. Having it is as logical as making BH have Domestic Arts4 as a prerequisite.
Hey! I didnt invest my efforts in unarmed 4 to just drop it and be ok with a 2.5 damage modifier. I think its a total lack of imagination to give anyone more damage based on the weapons they wield. why does a rifleman take anymore damage instead of loss of acuracy at close range as does a pistol at long range? The damage? Well then the rifle should have the equivalant reload rate if thats what they want to do.
Really its a simple formula to decide how much damage you do in X amount of time instead of just how much damage you do with one shot. Us comandos suffer from a very poor accuracy to start, and not to mention everything seems to catch us a lot quicker since that same patch, which Ive heard other ranged weapon professions complaining about and the strict brawlers love it. Well I'm sorry to those that are strictly brawlers, but you dont carry a sword to a gun fight and the only martial art you should ue is ching ching pow, so suck it up you should not beat a comando at master level.
Why take brawler class then you ask. Well it should be, and I know its not, for the same reason Im going TK along with comando. Look at the balance skills or just the plain all defensive mods you get as brawler that could be used in other fields. Sure we didnt get much at all from unarmed 4, but that was just a start. You had the choice of going TK or Pistoleer or rifle or carbine or maybe some scout.
I like having unarmed 4 because thats a sign that we are the only elite class that has master marksman AND some brawler and that should be what defines us as warriors.
People need to quit looking at brawler skills as a solo battle skill and more like a form of gracefulness on the battle field that could compliment another fighting skill or simple self defense when need be. I mean c'mon, Jet Li is a bad ass but do you see him running around in Iraq beating people up? I dont think hed be dumb enough to try, however every soldier learns hand to hand combat incase their enemy is to clos to try to shoot.
In short, unarmed stays, damage mods everywhere goes and another way is found to calculate combat. Thats my oppinion.
techno, then why are you taking commando if you end up fighting as a teras kasi? Using a flame special then switching to unarmed fighting... wow, thats definetely the way i expected a commando to be like you know, being forced 100% to up unarmed because otherwise i cant use the ONLY special attack found in the entire goddarned commando proffession (flame/acid cone/single all 18m or less, aka melee range). For that joke i could just be BH and up BHpistol and BHCarbine to lev4 and commando flamer to 4th box and heavy weapons to box3.
But then again, i wont be commando, but a BH with commando big punch weapons. Just like you using a flamer then switching to teras kasi means you will be a teras kasi with a napalm attack.
ALL other combat classes in this game can solo using the skills given within their own proffessions. But not commandos. We dont have the specials, our damage is completely random (and not higher per time than other proffessions..all we have is frontloaded damage and a dot) AND now we are horribly vulnerable in the range ofthat SINGLE special we have...and we have no bonuses to firing on the move (meaning we miss a LOT).
If we switch to fighting with pistol/carbine/rifle we instantly drop all our commando and become no better than a newbie with level4 in the weapon we are carrying. Switch to commando weapon and we cant hit squat unless target is static.. or close to our special attack range where we suffer 250% damage penalty.
Dunno about you fellows, but I feel SOE's chainsaw slowly sliding in and out of my anus every time i equip the flamethrower.
Im not saying that I want to fight teras kasi, im saying that I want to use precison striking, balance and meditate as compliments to being master comando. Not for the moves but for the defense, and I know we should get more out of unarmed 4 as should anyone who is a brawler by way of dodging and defense, but I think that should be brawlers big thing as a compliment to other skills.
Some TK think they should be able to take out a comando like we are equals, and I say to that if thats the case why dont I just be TK and only go up unarmed 4 and use my remaining skill points for CH or some other non actual combat skill since I dont need it?
Also, as mentioned by someone befor to get people from just taking up flame thrower, they said require tou to go up one of the other skill lines to reduce the damage mod. Not a half bad idea but even for the person that wants to really be a comando thats tough with this damage mod. Instead, I say require them to learn the full bottom row which would chew up more skill pool than xp so they arent tempted and thats 26 skill points just to be decent with the flamethrower when you count novice comando and yet you only have flame 1 after that.
Well, last night i saw a master teras kasi soloing force sensitives and killing them without him dropping below 80% life.
Not even before the nerf could a master commando come even close to this.
From now on im dropping my flamethrower, keeping just the heavy weapons tree and upping teras kasi. SOE has stroked my anus too long with that chainsaw. No more.
Commando was a screwed up profession to begin with, I'll start from when I first became a Commando.
We have the Acid Rifle Tree, whichis clearly outmatched by Flamethrower, this was ALWAYS the last tree taken by anyone aspiring to be an expert commando. Me, and I'm sure, many other people feel that this skill tree should be combined with Flame Thrower.
Launcher Pistol, Pistol or Heavy Weapon? We get the XP for Heavy weapons, but it's believed you use pistol mods for it. In order to make any use of it we really need to take Pistoleer, which shouldn't be a requirement. You don't see Bounty Hunters taking Carbineer ontop of their own Carbine tree (Atleast not as often as you see Commandos taking Pistoleer) and that's because Bounty hunter get their own weapon tree for Carbine. We should have our own weapon tree making use of the Launcher pistol.
If the devs decide against that, when Vehicles come out, we could get a skill tree devoted to hanling combat vehicles, like Drop Ships, or Speeder, or Walkers, or something. That would be a very interesting skill tree.
I think those are some of the critical issues, atleast before our new nerf.
I think we need to scrap the Acid Rifle Tree, put it inot Flamethrower, Add in a Launcher pistol tree.
This new nerf, we get 2.5x damage modifier against melee opponents when using our weapons.
In my Opinion, this is REASONABLE, but not when we're forced to use our specials from only 16 meters away, and then have a 15 second reload time on them. Not to mention in order to often hit we have to kneel, which gives an even greater damage modifier once the enemy closes in after our attacks.
It seems to me, that we often need to kill our enemy before they even close it, or else we're dead. By the time they get within 16 meters our special can SOMETIMES finish off the mob, but it isn't guaranteed, sometimes you might hit, and mob is still stading after the special, and then you're flat on your ass, dead.
I propose that the devs remove this damage multiplier. If not, then I propose they prolong our special range another 15 meters, or lower the reload time on our specials, or even a mixture of both. Because, right now, with my full composite armor now, Mobs with around 600 HAM are able to hit me for 300 damage, which is kind of a bad thing when you get swarmed by 4 and your Flame Cone 1 misses (We've all had that feeling). It's so bad, that I'm even considering taking up Smuggler for Feign death for those situations where I miss completely. Somehow though, I have a feeling the reload time on the specialwould prevent me from using Feign Death, so I probably won't even bother.
This is just how I feel, and my proposal for fixing commando. Any Comments?
Not a bad sentiment Strm, and I agree with you, but then again, I agree with everyone else who has posted to the same effect, and that means I agree with hundreds of others before you.
And to confirm your fear,yes, feign death is delayed by the combat que. It's still a worthwhile skill, but not for avoidingmelee damage after a special.(I tried it, hoping, but knowing the outcome in advance. It hurt.)
I recently surrendered it, but I wish I still had it. However, the skill points I needed had to come from somewhere. Next to go: Novice pistoleer.
Athein
BH vs. Commando, BH=BS, See BH shouldn't be nerfed AT ALL, they are just fine, you know why? cause any non elite porfession can take one on IF HE INVESTS SKILLS INTO OTHER COMBATIC TREES!!!!!!!!! we all know a master rifleman and master CH will put the smack down on a BH if they aren't in really close quarter (sprey stick fellas, lots of bleeds, works fast close range) MTKA M2H MPike MFencer all stand a chance against BH as well if they are smart, and their trees are harder to climb then any "ranged attack", of course they'll be opting to loose as well with only that perfession as well, HOWEVER any other combatic trees other then CH is useless to a brawler.... so effectivly you can't just "spend points else where to be better" so its balances things out, BH vs. brawler oriented people fair game, whos smarter, BH vs. Pistoler Rifleman Carbineer, we all know that they stand no chance unless they got some CH or some thing else, or healing, and thats how it should be..... Sense all of those are easy trees to climb,
the problem that DEV dosen't understand its BOUNTY HUNTER, not KILLING MACHINE, That means they are half combatic and half trackers, so they are that already, but they don't use it like that, they use it like they are killing machines and other classes get nerfed based on they should be taken out by a BH every time, NO THEY SHOULDN"T if they invest right, HOWEVER a BH is a pure combatic money maker, a Pistoler or Rifleman or Carbineer can also have another porfession or two that makes them have money, by selling stuff, in which a BH would take any one like that.....
Smuggler vs. BH, a Smuggler is a Smuggler not a fighter, Smugglers are a money making class, they fight for hides etc or spices, and they have last ditch and other delaying things so they can run away from a BH and get away with it, of course that should be totaly random who gets away with that
Commando vs. BH, ALL WRONG, and why? its not BH are to strong, its Commandos are to week, see a Commando is a trained soldier in close quarters (unarmed 4) and in ranged (discussesd soon shortly after some of this) there for, as being STRICTLY combatic, they should win, its like putting a Texas Bounty Hunter up against Green Berre, Delta, or some other military ELITE SPECIAL FORCES that **edit**ing hard nosed trained to deal with martial artists, and marksmen of all kinds including heavy weapons, small weapons, from fists to knife to sticks to anti tank guns, a BH is a money maker by combaticsism but more so from tracking, they track people down and ONLY IF NEED BE do they need to take them out or fight them till they can capture them, sure they are going to be good through EXP at tracking people down that are more so say theifs (smugglers, and other lower not so elite porfessions) and dealing with them, they should be expereienced in in dealing with the common people, and tricks and do-dillies that help them with that, but when they are up against a highly trained individual, thats been trained to fight the best of the best, they should WOOP THE BH's ASS HARD SMACK DOWN cause they are trained, it has nothing to do with "best way to do this" its wow I can pop him in the head no problem, come at me with a melee I'll woop your ass cause I know what I"m doing, I've been trained not "well if he comes at me swinging a billy club I'll move out of the way, or shoot him" its deflect it, block, take away, brake arms and legs, leathaly kill unarmed training.....
Now that we all see BH's are just fine, and DEV needs to realize they aren't ubber killers they are a combo of tracker and battle to tatke down the ordinary and usual public or thiefs etc, not a guy thats heavily trained, for exmaple RAMBO when he was in the woods, thats commando, (sure fake movie of course it is, very) but point being he was highly trained, bounty hunters, police men, didn't know how to deal with him, they are use to dealing with a shooter joe shmo (say son of sam) that dosen't know any thing more then how to point a gun
Problems with Commando Trees etc, Launcher Pistol needs to do blast damage for mobs, AND it needs to have either specials added to it with the heavy weapons tree, OR have accuracy and ddamage increased, better yet, make it its own tree ok ? NO MORE acid rifle, useless, it should be a ranged not close quarter weapon any how if any thing, ok so then we have flame thrower tree, this is for mobs as well, BUT its not a ranged weapon like the launcher pistol, and it gets more accurate and fast, like it already does, but it needs more points in them, what kind sain person steps into a flame thrower burst of flame? not me, this is our "crowd control" gun, the launcher pistol is a running away PVP ranged more type so weapon, flame is point blank type range, now I think DOT is good, HOWEVER I also believe that the specials shouldn't do a crap load more damage, I think the current specials are just fine, HOWEVER we need to be smart and not use them as our first option, what I do think is that at melee the flame throwers attack damage shoudl stack for armored targets, you heat up composite and the person inside will cook after awhile, there for no need for armor piercing, and DOT should be able to be stopped by "stop drop and roll" in otherwards whoever is DOTed should be able to go prone for say 5 seconds and have it put out but should recieve some wounds regardless he still got burned...... the launcher pistol should also have armor piercing 1, and if not that then it should have a "blow back" effect that stuns the explosion when it hits them "blows them back" or in other words effecticly slows them down a little like adding 1 second to their attack they are doing per shot
Ok so we have a launcher pistol that gets +10 arrucary +5 speed and +5 damage per level, sounds good to me, specials for it ? NONE, it has the marksman specials already, same effect at master commando
Flame thrower tree, +15 to accuracy +10 to speed, +10 to accuracy +10 to speed, +15 to accuracy +10 to speed, +10 to accuracy and +10 to speed, that'd make it 10 more points accurate, and +10 at novice commando, and +20 at master commando, after all it will only be effective shortrange as I'd have the weapon making itself TOTALY nerf it down to nothing over 30 meteres......(but way more powerufl at short range) also at level 2 of the tree flame cone 1, at level 4, flame cone 2, and they should do no more then normal damage but have DOT effect, (and no I don't believe dr.s should be able to fix DOT, once your burned your burned fella, at most they could slow it down with like a "fire blanket of surpression" your still gonna burn.....
now Heavy weapons tree, rocket launcher should be at master commando and be a little more powerful cause a lot of creatures are blast protective, and they are hard enough to make as is, I think I'm not the best person to decide what level you should get what weapon, some one else could identify that EASILY, and of course the +10 to speed +10 to accuracy should be on each of the tree, except at Master Commando they shouold get a skill mod of +10 to Heavy Weapons leading, that way you could hit a moving AT-ST.... maybe not a moving cu pa, but AT-ST sure
Tactits tree, make this be the same EXCEPT, specials..... level 2 would give a "evasive move" option that allowed you to "dodge" blows from the enemy, this would be a MELEE ONLY atribute, no dodging LLC or scatter pistol, this would be passive, it'd be a random dodge attack thing but you'd get +10 +5 +10 +5 +10 for each of the levels you got, so you'd stand a chance at melee with a say 1.75x modifier maybe? 2.5x is just TO MUCH sense we wouldn't be a natrually long range oriented class.....
all of this would be perr BECAUSE the weapons a commando uses do "melee damage" so any "toughness" another perfession has would work against us big time, BH we would be at least on par with, normally kick their ass, just because at close range if they tried to pistol wip us they'd be getting flamed so bad by normal flame attacks they'd want to step back, it wouldn't even be worth getting in the that close tfectly faio us, but again any melee would be ok because they have toughness against us,
Pistolers and Rifleman would obviously have the upper hand on pistoling close quarters and ranged, but we'd have a chance, pistoler et to close flamed to death, keep some distance own us cause flame would do not a lot ,but out launcher would have a good chance of taking them out depending on how well they used specials, rifleman we'd have to use a heavy weapon or run at them, obviously a "sniper" has a bit of an edge on any one until you get close to them, again terrain negoation is up to you, carbineer would be out of our flame range most the time, and our pistol would have to do more work, of course if they where all stock pistoler rifleman or carbineer we'd own them, but with a pet or some thing.... on PAR just liek they would be with BH.....
We'd be a force to reckon with, the thing that'd make this more possible is either our tree needs to be way harder to climb or cost more skill points, not saying cost as much as BH, but a bit more, we'd be an elite porfession more PVP then BH but we'd have no tracking skills so we won't be as much of a money maker.... I mean we'd be completely combatical money making oriented ONLY, unlike selling and tracking...... I think we'd be balanced, Melee we shouldn't daamge as much, but we wouldn't die like we where nothing, open game, we'd be open game to any thing really except large creatures with armor, they'd be a little to nasty for us with low armor piercing, I mean eventually we'd stack on the flame thrower but they'd take us out before it ment any thing, and stacking with it would be same on AT-ST after 10 shots you should do a good 150 damage instead of 40 with flame thrower, and so on, of course a rocket launcher would change every thing
Thats how I feel, I think its PERFECTLY possible and plausible, so if some one wanted to be a NPC killer they'd go commando and they'd be good at AT-ST and some creature take down, turrents, in faction fighting, but they wouldn't be able to take on 3 people by any means, they'd hit hard and stuff, but not be a god, and not be a huge hunter, simply just not a hunting oriented player, a BH is a half killing half tracking, they need to point out that tracking part a lot more.....
Thats how I feel
I have other ideas too but yea have fun, I still like the game even if its nerf city