Commando Archive
Thread: ok i am seriously pissed at soe. rangers getting commando -type abilities? what the heck????
Wouldn't that rule out both the Dark Forces and Republic Commando games, that featured Commandos wielding Heavy Weapons? When we have names such as Heavy Infantry, Shock Trooper...that usually is a good definition of what the heroes of those two games above infact were, and Heavy Weapons specialist certainly applies in this when you see the big guns that Kyle or the Clones were pulling out to kick butt..
Regardless, in my honest opinion neither a ranger nor a commando should be telling either how they should function or what their role is in SW. Its not healthy, nor is it even right or fair. And yes...I have read what you said in tac's thread on the Ranger forum, and by no means is our perception of wanting to be a SW commando "a fallacy".
Anyways, as BioEngine said...theres a big difference between Grenades and Traps. However there are a few things that Im personally worried about:
Damage...NOT functionality, is my concern here. Never should a trap be more powerful than an explosive, in the explosives profession. This does NOT mean they shouldn't be as powerful/deadly, or even shouldn't be in another profession outside the domain of the explosives profession. Just no, don't even go there because thats not the point here.
The point pertains in the track record of the development team. When our grenades recieved attention in the CU, they were made WORSE. I won't be a happy camper seeing that attention was given to an explosive for another profession, and that it was actually useful...while our stuff still remains ignored ignored (as it usually is, but rangers aren't new to that either).
My concern is that our grenades not be overlooked, and the "explosives" in the "explosives tree" of the profession actually get a revamp as they badly need them. I want equal damage power in regards to power levels (if you guys get a light mine, light damage...if we have grenades deemed heavy, heavy...if light, light, etc etc) since in the end...they're all explosives. Its just how each profession uses them, that is the major difference (thrown and damaging vs subtle and trapping)
This is -not- a "he got, I want" concern and most certainly goes far deeper than that anyways. Commandos do not lay traps to snare or ambush folks, we throw explosives to blow the living heck out of things. Now thats a huge difference, and certainly fits since I've seen the majority of rangers now seeing themselves as paramilitary/special forces (honestly, something that I've viewed the rangers as well).
This concern is above that. But who knows? It may actually come down to that traps will function like grenades, and be -as bad- as ours...then that would put us in the same boat, would it not? They're both consumables, and both related...and right now, both need attention.
Message Edited by StarNick on 09-19-2005 04:24 PM
Latenighter wrote:
Bio,
Thank you for your perspective. I believe the Commando community in general supports the Ranger and Squad Leader revamps. We understand that these were promised by SOE at the Anaheim Fanfest that followed the CU.
But please consider this: Commandos were promised that they would be fixed BY the CU. If that didn't work, we would be revamped. SOE's promise to fix commandos actually pre-dates their promises made at Fanfest.
The CU did not fix commandos. It actually (and unbelievably) made things worse by taking away specials, putting our skill into the weapons, and relying on AOE that does not work!
It's a small point, since Commando's and Rangers and Squad Leaders all suck like a bilge pump in a New Orleans basement right now. It's a concern for Commandos that many of the items that have been suggested to make commandos actually FEEL like commandos (remote mines, infiltration missions, etc) are being put into Rangers rather than Commandos. But that doesn't detract from the heartfelt belief that most commandos (no, I haven't done a poll, just judging from postings) support other hybrid professions being revamped.
Let's just try to stay away from the "SOE Promised us this and that on such and such a date so there" sort of position taking. SOE promises a lot and delivers not very much.
Thanks for visiting.
I feel for commandos over the problems with their profession, but to be honest, why would a heavy weapons specialist be an expert in subterfuge and trappy/booby traps?
Yes, Commando is erroneously named, but come on look at the skill trees, SWG Commandos are heavy weapons specialists, if you want the stealth and trapping, you would have to have the scout prerequisities.
Perhaps, and dont take offence, it would be better to fix commando rather than take out all the heavy weapons and turn it into a light scout troop type?
Finally, Ranger has had nothing since launch except the erosion of every skill they posses, whilst at the same time for those 2+ years saying that SW rangers where not D+D rangers. It was only at Anaheim that the Devsfinally realised what they were doing wrong.
Simply put, Rangers infiltrate a camp, retrieve some intel, escape and lead pursuit into a stealthily laid minefield and booby traps while the Commandos can open up on them with BIG guns.
Perhaps you should petition SOE to change your profession name itself to something that reflects your skills that have existed for years, Heavy Weapons specialist or something like it.
Olsson wrote:
Copied and pasted directly from the Ranger Revamp: FAQ in the Ranger forums:
- Question: What is our new role?
- Answer: Our new role depends entirely on your template as Ranger has become so mixable with other professions to make a unique template. Our main role as a single profession would have to be the Recon Unit, able to sneak around, gather intel lay lay down traps that are the envy of the military. Some of the main template rolesthat come to mind are?
- Sniper: Rifleman/Ranger:Stealth movement, extraction and combat.
- Rogue: Swordsman/Ranger: Melee DPS, Stealth movement and ability to jump opponements.
- Recon Unit: Ranger/SL/Combat: Stealth movement, group enhancement and leadership aswel as intel gathering and target spotting.
- Demolitions Expert: Commando/Ranger: Go in, place your mines and traps, move out and wait for the ticker to stop.
- Wilderness Survivalist: Ranger/Scout/CH: Go into the wilders, hide from your enemy, trap them and aid from your companions.
- Man Hunter: Ranger/BH: Get your mission, track down your mark, lay in wait to strike.
- Pathfinder: SL Mobility/Ranger/Combat: Know the way, lead the way, make the way
Please note the Ranger correspondent lists the Commando as a demolitionist even though adding Commando to the Ranger template will do absolutely nothing to achieve the tasks he's described. He instictively did it because, since Beta, Commando has been promised the role of Demolitionist and everyone knows it.
Firstly he isnt the ranger correspondent
Secondly those were ideas to be fleshed out
Thirdly big letters do not make it right.
Fourthly he does not say Commandos are demo experts, its is a template where the Commando brings the big guns to the mix.
If commandos want stealth and traps then they are more than welcome to them, you will of course need the 2 Scout prerequisites for these as well as give away 2 of your skill trees to be replaced by stealth/trap trees.
Just because you are a SWG Commando dont expect to be a light infantry spec ops infiltrator type. SWG Commandos are not this, they are heavy weapons specialists and as such need work done to improve their heavy hitting role.
Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 09-19-2005 01:49 PM
Olsson, he is the Ranger blue-glowie. NOT the Ranger Correspondent.
He was the Ranger Correspondent before Calc was, and did not post ^ during his time as Correspondent.
Message Edited by BioEngine on 09-19-2005 03:49 PM
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:
I feel for commandos over the problems with their profession, but to be honest, why would a heavy weapons specialist be an expert in subterfuge and trappy/booby traps?Yes, Commando is erroneously named, but come on look at the skill trees, SWG Commandos are heavy weapons specialists, if you want the stealth and trapping, you would have to have the scout prerequisities.
Perhaps, and dont take offence, it would be better to fix commando rather than take out all the heavy weapons and turn it into a light scout troop type?
Finally, Ranger has had nothing since launch except the erosion of every skill they posses, whilst at the same time for those 2+ years saying that SW rangers where not D+D rangers. It was only at Anaheim that the Devs finally realised what they were doing wrong.
Simply put, Rangers infiltrate a camp, retrieve some intel, escape and lead pursuit into a stealthily laid minefield and booby traps while the Commandos can open up on them with BIG guns.
Perhaps you should petition SOE to change your profession name itself to something that reflects your skills that have existed for years, Heavy Weapons specialist or something like it.
A name change....hmmm. For the amount of AOE we deal out, how about the "Cotton Ball Shooters" profession. Maybe "Aggro Masters?" Changing the name to fit our role isn't realistic because SOE has no coherent vision of the role we are supposed to perform.
Look, I'm not offended. I'm angry. Not at Rangers. At SOE. Rangers, Squad Leaders, and yes dagnabit, Commando's have been screwed up royally since launch 2 years ago. But it's not productive to have Rangers and Commando's bickering about "We got that, so you can't have it" sort of things. I'm simply saying that many of the things that have been included in reimagining the commando profession are now being included in the Ranger profession. I'm not being envious, I'm simply stating a fact. It's in the enormous number of posts discussing how to fix/improve/repair/resuscitate the Commando profession. I invite you to read through them. They are all over this board.
I have a post in another thread that suggests the Unarmed IV pre-req for Commando should be dumped and changed to Scout Trapping IV, so we aren't far off on that. Let the Rangers do the trapping sorts of things (hidden traps and such), and let Commando's set down large scale high explosive minefields that have a HUGE sign on them that says proudly "IF YOU ENTER HERE, YOU WILL BE LEAVING IN TINY BITS." Rangers can set traps that go bang, but Commandos should be able to throw explosives that go BOOM!
Your theory requires that we have big guns. But that also requires that the big guns WORK. We got our weapons changed in the CU and they were screwed up horribly, and don't work as intended. So is it totally unreasonable to ask that SOE fix what they broke before they break....I mean fix...another profession? It's not unreasonable, but not likely either, since it's SOE.
And don't sell them short. SOE realised that Rangers were screwed up horrifically a hell of a long time before Fanfest Anaheim!
Rangers and Commando's have no need to bicker, since the Ranger profession looks like it might be a "Light Commando" profession based on the design changes. You're finally getting some combat skills. We'd like to have some too! LOL
Well said Latenighter.
Rangers should be light clandestine special forces who infiltrate and set the traps minefields then do the job
Commandos should be the guys covering them with BIG guns (that work) as they scrabble away from a superior force leading them into booby traps.
Rangers have always said that if it need fixed, fix it whoever it is. But, if Commandos keep tromping throughranger boards shouting that they DESERVE what rangers got, the normally mild mannered friendly ranger whose profession hasnt worked AT ALL since launch in comparison to commando may get a bit annoyed.
If you had your prequisites changed that would work as a way to get trapping and perhaps stealth, or you could just take ranger up yourself. The problem is you have to make a choice between BIG guns and stealthy combat for commando, and some people seem to believe if the big guns arent working right then they should have stealth, im afraid that really isnt a reasonable way to go about things.
Forgive me if im not totally up on Commando, I only played it preCU. Anyway, commando grenades are basically traps that do damage whilst ranger traps dont do damage. As it stands the only way a Ranger can do damage will be with the minefield from the revamp.
I totally understand that there are people out there who think Commando should be a spec ops type, despite it being heavy weapons since launch but, do what Rangers did. Come up with ideas that fight with heavy weapons troops (Spacetroopers, armoured vehicles, piloted armoured vehicles etc.) that fit within your profession and its prerequisites.
And SOE may have known Ranger was dead but, I believe it was at Anaheim somebody finally got through to them what a Star Wars Ranger actually was.
Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 09-19-2005 02:05 PM
Look Rangers, and Squad Leaders have alway sucked. Commandos have just sucked so long it seems like forever, and gotten worse.
Although I have thought Rangers as being more animal hugging guys, walking through forest
I don't disagree them being combat orientated. First reason is to be a Scout, you have to kill animals. And skin em bla bla bla. That means you have to fight. Scout in SWG is built to help Combat folks, by survival thus the reason why I spend my remaining skills in Scout rather then go for more lines so I can be Uber or whatever, by sticking a thousand needles into myself.
Kind of mad that we can no longer gain Scout XP by walking like we use too just because it was exploited...
So Ranger, like Creature Handler is orientated around Combat, though not really Combat itself.
I can agree with the Ranger's Revamp. It's more Star Wars like I would say. Rangers are the guys hiding in the bushes who come and stab you with a knife or are hiding in a tree/building to snipe someone. They are going to be the Stealth guys, the guys who can sneak both out and in to enemy situations.
I love what's happening with Squad Leaders and Rangers, because they are becoming what they should be. They would make awesome Templates with Commando...
But Commando is FRICKING BORKED!
We are suppose to be the the guys with the big MO*$&# FU*&#)@ GUNS!
We are not Snipers, we are not some dude with a Big Arse Sword, We are suppose to blow everything to kingdom come!
When someone sees a Rocket Launcher, they should being say Oh Shat!
Plasma Flamethrowers when in use should make people fun in fear from being hit and their group being engulfed by Flames!
A Grenade should be a useful Weapon, that does not hinder you, but gives you an advantage when your fighting a group of enemies!
Commandos need to be the Medium Range Damage Dealers. That does not mean "Medium Damage". Look Carbineer, Pistoleer, and Smuggler, cover pretty much all areas of Crowd Control.
However Damage Range wise only Rifleman is true. Then guess what! There's no one else but the Swordsman who can do Damage!
My question is why?!
There needs to be a Medium Range Damage zone out there. The game needs it. It's the reason why everyone is either a Melee/Super Tank (Jedi) or an extreme range Sniper, or a Control Freak.
Control Freaks and Tanks, cover pretty much all ranges and areas.
But Damage is lacking. We are suppose to be 1 of the 3 great Damage Dealers.
Commando is suppose to help Damage. By inputting Commando into any Ranged or Melee Template, your Damage is supposed to be greatly boosted. Commando is not suppose to increase Crowd Control much if at all, and only add some decent Defense.
Commando is about dishing out Damage in the Range of 30-45M. That does not make us gods. Snipers will still have range to bring us down, and sword dudes when they can reach us will smack us down, though not so bad as Pre-CU.
This makes the Game Better. People will be able to fight in the medium Range better then ever!
I'm tired of being a wizard with a magic stick who can magically freeze or stop a bunch of people. I don't want to do that. That's not we asked for before the CU. We wanted to be the dude with a Big Gun that when we're finsihed there's nothing left of you!
Commando needs to a gouda damned Profession, not something you tack on with Smuggler, which makes little sense. Why is dude who gets by with luck and tricks use big guns. There's a reason why Han has a pistol.
I want to see Commando/TKMS again, who in those Close fights will bring the smack down! I want to see Rifleman/Commandos with a big gun taking out people beofre they knew what hit them.
If you want to be Han, or Chewie with a big gun that's cool, but Commando should be very open profession.
My dream is being a Commando/BH the type of dude who is really hard to kill in one vs. one fights, because of his defense and damage ability.
Do not be mad about Rangers, Squad Leaders, or Smugglers being able to something, cause that gives us more options, it widens what we can do. You want mines and traps pick up Ranger!
But does everyone understand why we need to get on the Devs case to make Commando an actual Profession, not just a big damn Cert Tree with mods!
Theres a difference between paramilitary, and the perception that we're just "heavy weapon specialists". That role is very vague and seemingly intentional because we're suppoused to be a flexible force that is very destructive...rangers are the same and opposite seemingly...a flexible force that can infiltrate and ambush...so apparently one is overt and covert reflections of the other. But all in all...commandos are the overt destructive force who delt with the thrown explosives and WMD's of many Lucasarts games; SWG is no exception...its just that we're broken.
Hence, "Republic Commando" to its core.
These guys were heavily armoured and armed, flexible to any situation, and were able to unleash hell. Thats essentially the definition of the heavy Weapons specialist in SWG. We were to be tactically flexible and proficient in dealing out damage. And our pre-reqs, as well as weapons and abilities reflect this! All of this...is directly from the CU Documents. As you can see, we barely fit this right now and is the reason why we want to get back to the CU role as pitched to us.
Now, getting away from the core of such a commando...some abilities from Republic Commando could be tied into Rangers (setting traps...being special forces sent in, Commandos are a bit of a quasi-special forces guy too...but Rangers are more the folks who can survive for long periods of time behind enemy lines while we raid, raise some hell, and go home). But the major difference is, thats not the Core of what the Clones were in Republic Commando...the twisted desire to blow things up, and carrying a gun twice the size of you is lacking.
Taking directly from other games or movies can be hard in an RPG...ie Han Solo planting Proton Grenades in ROTJ. He's a smuggler, but also is using grenades to blow something up. You could even go as far saying that he's planting a trap.
I honestly think that the new concept of Ranger is more drawn directly from a more RL adaptation while the Commando concept still remains something of a Sci-fi/fiction nature (ie...Rambo). Both can be closely parelleled...because both seem to be able to be flexible, and hence somewhat undefined - unfortunately ranger may be in our situation were they will have to rely on another profession to fully achieve a combat role. Hopefully it won't come to that.
Rangers have always said that if it need fixed, fix it whoever it is. But, if Commandos keep tromping through ranger boards shouting that they DESERVE what rangers got, the normally mild mannered friendly ranger whose profession hasnt worked AT ALL since launch in comparison to commando may get a bit annoyed.
Its also a bit unfair to say this...when its only a few vocal folks while the majority of our community even have had discussions on who should get fixed first (and ya know what? Rangers came out first). Vice versa as well.
Our community has always been a very good and well versed one...but keep in mind that we haven't just been left in the dust, but really screwed with failed designs or implementions. Imagine if you guys had to go through a few role changes, without revamps, or get "shoddy" design when promised a revamp. Leaves a crowd jaded sometimes...
Lastly...just a minor discussion point:
Heavy Weapons Specialist can be percieved in many different ways:
1) Think Infantry Online, the Heavy Weapons Specialist was essentially support. This guy was like RL with infantry squads. -not us-
2) Think Republic Commando, these guys were independent and their roles depended on templates...some were more ideal with explosives (Ranger/Commando), another a sniper (Sniper/Commando). These guys could do refined roles, as well as wide-spread heavy damage...very much a template like in SWG. -like us-
3) TOW Infantry, tank busting crews, and RPG (rocket propelled grenade) folks...aux units and generally off to the sides right? -sorta like us...we're not hardcore front-line troopers, but sent in to soften up targets or destroy em (hence Shocktrooper and our AoE), but we are easily idenfitied and can't survive against many forces for long, so our raids are quick or we strike precise targets, depending on our template-
4) Ah-nold from Predator & the other Governator. Big guns, big muscles, big destruction. -Sorta like us, sorta like rangers (remember that HUGE chain gun?)-
And there are probably more, but thats my point...its a vague definition and could really be applied to lots of concepts. However our constants are: Flexible Destruction and Masters of Boomsticks. Basically anything that can really put on a good fireworks display, the SW Commandos, in my opinion, from both Dark Forces/Republic Commando really reflects that principle.
But roles changed...post-launch we were like the tank-busters and somewhat of an aux profession that also had some anti-personal measures (FT and HAR). Then after that, mainly blast damage niche...just a clear cut damage dealer who delt a specific type of destruction. At launch guess what, we were almost like how Rangers are to be right now! We were to craft our own grenades/munitions and be more self-sufficient and carry big guns...a total special forces profession.
Right now, that role is flexible destruction and the ability to adept to any situation and give em hell to boot.
Message Edited by StarNick on 09-19-2005 05:39 PM
Seriously, look at the postings in this forum if you get a chance. There have been 2 years worth of proposals on how to improve the profession. Two years of seeing bubkiss from SOE. We have proposals for the E-Web crewed machine gun turret, Tanks, mortars, artillery, grenade launchers, kinetic weapons, K-Bar knives, throwing knives, melee weapon specials where we introduce our opponent to the butt of our gun, all of it. And nothing to show.
As far as folks tromping through the Ranger boards, you might want to pause and consider that Commandos won't like a Ranger doing the same thing here.
It's fair to invite visitors to the profession forum to read up on the profession so they will know more about what has and is being discussed. I'd say Commando's going to the Ranger board should do that and learn the Ranger board topics. And so should visitors here.
And when your pre-reqs get dropped, you just might find Master Commando/Master Rangers, which is impossible to do today. Just make sure you insist on some ranged damage specials, or you will come to learn firsthand one of our worst problems.
TK-132 wrote:
I don't see what the problem is.
Look Rangers, and Squad Leaders have alway sucked. Commandos have just sucked so long it seems like forever, and gotten worse.
Although I have thought Rangers as being more animal hugging guys, walking through forest
I don't disagree them being combat orientated. First reason is to be a Scout, you have to kill animals. And skin em bla bla bla. That means you have to fight. Scout in SWG is built to help Combat folks, by survival thus the reason why I spend my remaining skills in Scout rather then go for more lines so I can be Uber or whatever, by sticking a thousand needles into myself.
Just a point, there is now a sticky up on the Ranger forum that goes someway to explaining what a Star Wars Ranger is, and why the majority of Rangers have wanted pretty much this exact revamp from launch.
The problem has always been that people (Devs) included have gone "Ranger? that sounds like a bow and arrow creature hunter" due to the name being used in Fantasy titles. In Star Wars a Ranger is someone who is a clandestine operative.
Latenighter wrote:
OMG. You really haven't looked at the postings in the forum at all! The Tank Thread will be getting more posts since you said "Armored Vehicles"!!!!!! /sarcasm off
Seriously, look at the postings in this forum if you get a chance. There have been 2 years worth of proposals on how to improve the profession. Two years of seeing bubkiss from SOE. We have proposals for the E-Web crewed machine gun turret, Tanks, mortars, artillery, grenade launchers, kinetic weapons, K-Bar knives, throwing knives, melee weapon specials where we introduce our opponent to the butt of our gun, all of it. And nothing to show.
As far as folks tromping through the Ranger boards, you might want to pause and consider that Commandos won't like a Ranger doing the same thing here.
It's fair to invite visitors to the profession forum to read up on the profession so they will know more about what has and is being discussed. I'd say Commando's going to the Ranger board should do that and learn the Ranger board topics. And so should visitors here.
And when your pre-reqs get dropped, you just might find Master Commando/Master Rangers, which is impossible to do today. Just make sure you insist on some ranged damage specials, or you will come to learn firsthand one of our worst problems.
Sorry but I am a former commando if that helps, and Ranger has no specials at all, except /burstun
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:
Sorry but I am a former commando if that helps, and Ranger has no specials at all, except /burstun
As a former Commando Pre-CU you would remember some specials, that's for sure.
Now we have none. So you are already one special ahead of us! LOL.
And maybe you'll get back what you once lost (commando) after this revamp.
