Commando Archive
Thread: NDA Lifted on JTL
garvin wrote:
Warmaker01 wrote:
Here's another thing I want to throw out:
JTL, if it was to hit it's announced released date with as much quality as possible, seriously, seriously needed to hit Beta much earlier. Maybe even 1-2 months earlier for Beta testing.
Did it not botherany other Beta testers, other than myself,that they just startedfixing such a criticalaspect, the flight model recently? In every sim that I have played, the flight model is the single most critical aspect of any "flight" related game. Graphics take a secondary seat to the flight model! If your fighter/bomber/spaceship even feels off, the sim is screwed... and I'm not just talking about hardcore sims.
Also, didn't people complain that SWG was released ridden with bugs? I wasn't in SWG's Beta, but I have read and heard this repeatedly from veterans who were in the Beta since I joined up. Well, JTL has quite a number of bugs, but in our anxiousness to get the expansion to go gold, we're all of the sudden willing to deal with lots of bugs? So again, if Quality Assurance (and I work in QA for my squadron... F/A-18 Hornets) does mean something, the bugs and issues really need more time to be ironed out. If you think some of us pointing out issues in the Beta are annoying... wait until the expansion goes live. Mark my words.
Message Edited by Warmaker01 on 10-22-2004 09:29 AM
To be completely and painfully honest...I'm glad the Devs stuck to their releases date (they are still as far as I know releasing JTL on 10/27) with any bugs still in there...It's a fun expansion bugs or no bugs...but it's also not as important to me as fixing the ground game...by NOT delaying it, we now get them to work on the Combat Upgrade sooner...if they delayed JTL in anyway, the Combat Upgrade would also get delayed further and most will agree that they really need to get onto fixing the core game...
Remember, JTL will have it's own group working on it's bugs and issues...I'm sure for a few weeks their team will be enhanced still with SWG staff for some "after release" clean-up, but the brunt of the SWG staff that was moved over to JTL will return to SWG to work on the Combat Upgrade...
As for your feelings of extending the Beta time...you might want to remember that IF it comes up during the Combat Upgrade testing...Basically the Sandbox will be Beta testing the Upgrade...There may be delays on the Combat Upgrade release to hopefully get all the bugs out...
The key thing is what is more imporant...the Core game or the Add On...The Core game came out of Beta with Bugs that needed to be addressed...The Add On will also be coming out with bugs in it, but they won't be game breaking AND they will have no impact on the Core game for the average player...That's why I'm personally ok with JTL releasing with bugs in it...Also I've noticed that many of the "bugs" being reported lately and subjective...Some really hate these bugs (like the screen issues) while others have no problems with it and play just fine...To me, that makes them secondary bugs that aren't critical enough to prevent release...I see a big difference in a Beta of a Core game and a Beta of a secondary Add-On...It's hard to compare the too and justify further delays...
Awhile back I took some certification courses in software and web bug testing...I learned all about Black Box and White Box Bug testing...In those courses you learn to place bugs at various levels...I strongly feel that the bugs that are still in there aren't critical enough to risk delaying the Combat Upgrade any further then it already has...I'm happy enough with JTL for the Devs to finally move on...the more we complain about JTL, the more we risk the Devs thinking that maybe they should delay it's release AND the more we risk further delays to the Combat Upgrade...
Anyway...that's just my opinion...Are you satisfied enough with JTL to have SOE release it'sfolks to work on the Combat Upgrade?
Message Edited by garvin on 10-22-2004 09:45 AM
Message Edited by Warmaker01 on 10-22-2004 10:02 AM
Message Edited by Warmaker01 on 10-22-2004 10:04 AM
"If they can be fooled, they can be killed." 
Warmaker01 wrote:
Here's another thing I want to throw out:
JTL, if it was to hit it's announced released date with as much quality as possible, seriously, seriously needed to hit Beta much earlier. Maybe even 1-2 months earlier for Beta testing.
Did it not botherany other Beta testers, other than myself,that they just startedfixing such a criticalaspect, the flight model recently? In every sim that I have played, the flight model is the single most critical aspect of any "flight" related game. Graphics take a secondary seat to the flight model! If your fighter/bomber/spaceship even feels off, the sim is screwed... and I'm not just talking about hardcore sims.
Also, didn't people complain that SWG was released ridden with bugs? I wasn't in SWG's Beta, but I have read and heard this repeatedly from veterans who were in the Beta since I joined up. Well, JTL has quite a number of bugs, but in our anxiousness to get the expansion to go gold, we're all of the sudden willing to deal with lots of bugs? So again, if Quality Assurance (and I work in QA for my squadron... F/A-18 Hornets) does mean something, the bugs and issues really need more time to be ironed out. If you think some of us pointing out issues in the Beta are annoying... wait until the expansion goes live. Mark my words.
Message Edited by Warmaker01 on 10-22-2004 09:29 AM
Message Edited by Jhyson-Bria on 10-22-2004 01:40 PM
"Nope. from now on, we're only going to be talking about "what's next".
Whats next is Combat Upgrade and I'm working on the initial message now.
Kurt "Thunderheart" Stangl
Community Relations Manager "
nbd9k wrote:
Ok, heres my 2 creds.
Personally, i really like JTL. its got a flavor that the ground game just doenst have. namely, a poorly equiped low level pilot can still take on and kill a higher level player simply by being a better pilot!!!
THINK ABOUT WHAT THAT MEANS!!!
Not true. Example: 2 Equally skilled (and Master/Ace level Pilots) players, one in a Decimator and another in a Z95, will fight each other. They equip their crafts to the best they can configure.
Tell me, do you honestly believe the Z95 will win, even by pure skill? I personally would place my bets on the Decimator pilot. Why? Because it has the mass to equip the best gear for that player's configuration and playstyle. The Z95 is a small fighter, and since it is a very low tier starfighter, doesn't have the mass to hold anything for a worthwhile configuration. Light fighters just don't move well enough to merit a loss of mass.
this is a concept that sould appeal to ALL commandos, simply because there is no rifleman/combat medic edge to it. if youre good, youre good. if you suck, getting the best training and equipment still isnt going to help you. any trash talking or "pwnage" (bleeech) is completely righteous, doesnt come down to one profession having more of an advantage than another. and usually, the truely good pilots are dignified enough to compliment the opposition and move on to the next target. there is no jumping around and yelling of W00T like an antisocial 15 year old. This is the kind of fighting we were always looknig for groundside, and never able to get.
Do you honestly believe JTL is all about "twitch skill?" If so, how do you explain the certifications to even use parts. JTL is as much a skill box & certification game as the ground game for SWG.
Do you also honestly believe a low-level pilot with Lv.1 certifications can take on a Master/Ace Pilot flying his A-Wing/B-Wing/Decimator/TIE Advanced?
I will give youa series of gameswhere it was all about PLAYER SKILL and FAMILIARITY WITH HIS AND HIS OPPOSITION'S FIGHTERS: The X-Wing series.
anyone with doubts, give JTL a try. it might take a month or two to get the rest of the bugs out of the system, but right now, the beta is running pretty well.
I am giving it a try. I am in the Beta. I had the expansion preordered. And right now, I have doubts. Maybe my standards and expectations are set too high for it.
and as for anyone who says that the beta server is laggy, or the graphics are glitchy or something needs to beta test a few more games. Gentlemen: thats part of BETA TESTING! you are there to fix the problems, not to have a fantastic gaming experience. Look for the good things in the software, dont sit and whine about the stuff that didnt get fixed in that last patch.
I never complained about the graphics or lag. I wasn't stupid enough not to realize that the lag was due to the large player population in the Beta server. Still, it'll be interesting to see how the lag goes on the large Live servers. Most of my flying experience with lag was just fine. I've got DSL and I never complained of lag in-flight. And I have submitted my fair share of /bug reports.
- Fighting a decimator is like fighting 3 people at once. If it was just a guy in a decimator he would be cannon fodder, even against the free ship.
The game is still predominantly twitch-based. It's a bit of an RPG hybrid in that you need to be certified for better gear, but all attacks are based purely on player skill. If that Ace was flying a B-Wing and was completely inept at motor skills, then the a skilled person in the newbie ship could win - that is the essence of twitch skills.
Besides, it doesn't take more than a day of playing to beat tier 1 anyways. 
Another reason for my griping... the devs have used the name of the venerable X-Wing series, specifically X-Wing vs TIE Fighter, as their base or inspiration for JTL. Being a fan of the old series, and a JTL Beta tester, it did not feel like it, but I probably belong in the small minority.
Raptor2k1 wrote:
Not true. Example: 2 Equally skilled (and Master/Ace level Pilots) players, one in a Decimator and another in a Z95, will fight each other. They equip their crafts to the best they can configure.
Tell me, do you honestly believe the Z95 will win, even by pure skill? I personally would place my bets on the Decimator pilot. Why? Because it has the mass to equip the best gear for that player's configuration and playstyle. The Z95 is a small fighter, and since it is a very low tier starfighter, doesn't have the mass to hold anything for a worthwhile configuration. Light fighters just don't move well enough to merit a loss of mass.
That's a silly comparison forone big reasonreason:
- Fighting a decimator is like fighting 3 people at once. If it was just a guy in a decimator he would be cannon fodder, even against the free ship.
Fair enough, since one is a multiple crewed vehicle. But I will still stand by this: The difference in mass and quality of equipment. Low tier, Light Fighters simply have too much of a penalty to fight compared to the big hulks.
Do you honestly believe JTL is all about "twitch skill?" If so, how do you explain the certifications to even use parts. JTL is as much a skill box & certification game as the ground game for SWG.
Do you also honestly believe a low-level pilot with Lv.1 certifications can take on a Master/Ace Pilot flying his A-Wing/B-Wing/Decimator/TIE Advanced?
I will give youa series of gameswhere it was all about PLAYER SKILL and FAMILIARITY WITH HIS AND HIS OPPOSITION'S FIGHTERS: The X-Wing series.
The game is still predominantly twitch-based. It's a bit of an RPG hybrid in that you need to be certified for better gear, but all attacks are based purely on player skill. If that Ace was flying a B-Wing and was completely inept at motor skills, then the a skilled person in the newbie ship could win - that is the essence of twitch skills.
Besides, it doesn't take more than a day of playing to beat tier 1 anyways.
Here is the essense of twitch skills for Star Wars starfighter combat: Back in the heyday of X-Wing vs TIE Fighter/Balance of Power, back in the day of X-Wing:Alliance, I could do this solely because of my skill and familiarity with the game:
- Jump into team battles/skirmishes/missions with my unshielded, but nimble TIE Interceptor. I can have a respectable chance of performing well against the mass of Alphabet Fighters. The Interceptor's speed, firepower (FOUR LASERS), agility, combined with my skill with the game allowed me to do that.
- I can try jumping into the same situations with the often sneezed at TIE Fighter, and still perform respectably. It required ALOT more care, however, but I still stood a decent chance.
- I could stand a respectable fight flying a TIE Fighter against my friend in his TIE Defender (the very definition of uberfighter if there ever was one. Same with the Missile Boat in XvT/BoP). I will lose, but he won't kill me in seconds.
You cannot do this with JTL. Like I said before, it's all about skill boxes and certifications, just like the ground game. Example: There are high tier/level weapons that have minimum damages that are far more damaging than the maximum damages of low tier/level weapons. A crafted Med.Blaster has a minimum value that far exceeds the damage capable from the Sm.Blaster... and the Med.Blaster is a Lv.3 weapon. There are much higher levels (not that I was able to use the Lv.8 gear I had... I was gated). Same for shields, reactors, capacitors, engines.
Related to this, is the starcraft themselves. The low level fighters, some of them the very icons of Star Wars, simply can't compete since they have very low mass capacities.
It's all about this:Skill boxes, Certifications, and now Mass. "Twitch" is a secondary factor.
Warmaker01 wrote:
Another reason for my griping... the devs have used the name of the venerable X-Wing series, specifically X-Wing vs TIE Fighter, as their base or inspiration for JTL. Being a fan of the old series, and a JTL Beta tester, it did not feel like it, but I probably belong in the small minority.
Raptor2k1 wrote:
Not true. Example: 2 Equally skilled (and Master/Ace level Pilots) players, one in a Decimator and another in a Z95, will fight each other. They equip their crafts to the best they can configure.
Tell me, do you honestly believe the Z95 will win, even by pure skill? I personally would place my bets on the Decimator pilot. Why? Because it has the mass to equip the best gear for that player's configuration and playstyle. The Z95 is a small fighter, and since it is a very low tier starfighter, doesn't have the mass to hold anything for a worthwhile configuration. Light fighters just don't move well enough to merit a loss of mass.
That's a silly comparison forone big reasonreason:
- Fighting a decimator is like fighting 3 people at once. If it was just a guy in a decimator he would be cannon fodder, even against the free ship.
Fair enough, since one is a multiple crewed vehicle. But I will still stand by this: The difference in mass and quality of equipment. Low tier, Light Fighters simply have too much of a penalty to fight compared to the big hulks.
Do you honestly believe JTL is all about "twitch skill?" If so, how do you explain the certifications to even use parts. JTL is as much a skill box & certification game as the ground game for SWG.
Do you also honestly believe a low-level pilot with Lv.1 certifications can take on a Master/Ace Pilot flying his A-Wing/B-Wing/Decimator/TIE Advanced?
I will give youa series of gameswhere it was all about PLAYER SKILL and FAMILIARITY WITH HIS AND HIS OPPOSITION'S FIGHTERS: The X-Wing series.
The game is still predominantly twitch-based. It's a bit of an RPG hybrid in that you need to be certified for better gear, but all attacks are based purely on player skill. If that Ace was flying a B-Wing and was completely inept at motor skills, then the a skilled person in the newbie ship could win - that is the essence of twitch skills.
Besides, it doesn't take more than a day of playing to beat tier 1 anyways.
Here is the essense of twitch skills for Star Wars starfighter combat: Back in the heyday of X-Wing vs TIE Fighter/Balance of Power, back in the day of X-Wing:Alliance, I could do this solely because of my skill and familiarity with the game:
- Jump into team battles/skirmishes/missions with my unshielded, but nimble TIE Interceptor. I can have a respectable chance of performing well against the mass of Alphabet Fighters. The Interceptor's speed, firepower (FOUR LASERS), agility, combined with my skill with the game allowed me to do that.
- I can try jumping into the same situations with the often sneezed at TIE Fighter, and still perform respectably. It required ALOT more care, however, but I still stood a decent chance.
- I could stand a respectable fight flying a TIE Fighter against my friend in his TIE Defender (the very definition of uberfighter if there ever was one. Same with the Missile Boat in XvT/BoP). I will lose, but he won't kill me in seconds.
You cannot do this with JTL. Like I said before, it's all about skill boxes and certifications, just like the ground game. Example: There are high tier/level weapons that have minimum damages that are far more damaging than the maximum damages of low tier/level weapons. A crafted Med.Blaster has a minimum value that far exceeds the damage capable from the Sm.Blaster... and the Med.Blaster is a Lv.3 weapon. There are much higher levels (not that I was able to use the Lv.8 gear I had... I was gated). Same for shields, reactors, capacitors, engines.
Related to this, is the starcraft themselves. The low level fighters, some of them the very icons of Star Wars, simply can't compete since they have very low mass capacities.
It's all about this:Skill boxes, Certifications, and now Mass. "Twitch" is a secondary factor.
People argue semantics way too much on these threads. I made the comment, and this is what i based it on. i took my dinky little tier one dunelizard, stacked it full of looted equipment, and went hunting around dath. As long as i dodged their missiles, i was fine, and i took down 3 "Ace" ships before they finally killed me. just in case this was a fluke, i went and found a couple of higher level players and dueled them too. though the highest guy i could find was only a partial tier 4, im proud to say i held my own. it wasnt easy, it took alot longer for me to get his shields down, and i couldnt get hit, but it was doable.
so. argue stats all you want. sure, if you take some master pilot and put him in a nice ship with awesome equipment, he should have no problem blowing newbs out of the sky. but it is totally possible for any of those newbs to put up a decent fight, and possibly even win, if the guy just sucks as a pilot.
I like this because im tired of carrying the most formidible weapons in the game and ketting trounced by a weeny little fencer or some rifleman with a chip on his shoulder, simply because OUR profession hasnt been shown the same love. JTL gives everyone a fighting chance.
if you dont think you can do it, practice harder. someday youll be a better pilot.