Commando Archive
Thread: Commando Assignment #5: Current Commando Top5 (8/24/04) for Review
Brilyn wrote:
This is not a flame, or at least, not at you Garvin.(just want to get that clearly out of the way):
What I'm saying is: you're missing a lot because someone made you a crap weapon.
What I'm saying is: some of these issues will recede if someone made you a good weapon.
The best thing about crafting in SWG to a LOT of crafters is the inherent complexity in the system. I do NOT want this dumbed down.
This is NOT in my interest, or in the interest of Weaponsmiths.
The "easier" craft involves removing a couple hours of *factory* time.
The whiney Weaponsmiths who claim that making Rocket Launchers is 'hard' are lazy ass Weaponsmiths, who are willing to spend months searching for the right piddly Desh Copper to make a 147max damage VK, as opposed to a 146max damage one, but won't put a factory on for a couple hours to make a run of Rocket Launchers.
Yes, that's all making Rocket Launchers entails: A couple extra factory runs. That's all. Nothing that actually requires effort on the part of the Weaponsmith.
If anyone would like a demonstration in *precisely* how much work goes into making a Rocket Launcher, please start a toon on Starsider, and send me a /tell. I'll walk you through it. Yes, I quite serious. *annoyed*
Thus ends that particular rant.
< I won't actively use them in battle when I can choose other weapons that have less negative effects on me and more on my target... >
Fair enough, that's a valid call to make.
I'm suggesting that Accurate Grenades, while not eliminating the HAM cost, move the cost/benefit equation of Grenades back towards them being worth your while.
Again, see the thread I started on this subject.
First off...no worry about Flames (we commandos like flames if you can't tell)...And I try as much as possible to keep Flames out of any discussion I am involved in...unless it's quite appropriate...heck, Flames are all we have...lol
Anyway...The point I'm trying to make is that even if you could improve our RL's to hit 22 out of 30 times (which would be great), most Commandos would still see them as costing too much when looking at their benefit factor...So no matter how well the RL or Grenade is crafted, the negatives still outweigh the postives to greatly...
Think about it from this standpoint...on my server the average FT costs around 30K...the average RL costs around 30K...I know I can use my FT for at least 200+ specials before it dies (more I'm sure, but never really counted)...I can use my RL a max of 30 times and hope that more shots connect then miss. An FT is more desirable to me even though it costs the same...
Would you be willing to agree that an FT is easier to craft then an RL? If so, why do they cost about the same on average? Do WS's set their prices based on Materials used to make the item + crafting time or do they base their prices on popularity of the weapon? If it's based on Materials and Time, you'd think the FT would be a lot cheaper or the RL a lot more...and if the RL should cost more, then right there you get to the idea of cost vs. usefulness...
Most Commandos don't go out and constantly stock up on RLs or Grenades...some do, but they are the "exception that makes the rule"...The Average Commando feels that the negatives of these weapons don't make them worth the cost (both in credits and in damage taken/done)...If the negatives were to go down and these items were made more useful, more Commandos would seek them out on a more regular basis...OR...if RLs changed to be crafted in a way that WS's were comfortable with selling them at a severely reduced cost of what they are now, more commandos would buy them...
If I ran into a WS that was selling 28 shot RLs with average stats across the board for 5K each, I'd probably buy 10 at least and use them a lot more (which would lead to me wanting to buy more as I use them up)...but at a cost of 30K each, I only by them sparingly and use them when the need arises which translates into less of a demand...OR...if the Devs made them more Accurrate/More Useful, I'd be more ok with the 30K price and use them more....It's not about getting better crafted ones (trust me, I buy from the best WS's on my Server), it's about working the flaws out of them that hurt their usefulness and inturn cause usNOT to use them as often as we could or should be in the original Dev design.
Daker = Green
Hellshot wrote:
Issue 2) Heavy Acid Rifle: The HAR is in desperate need of a total revamp or replacement. The HAR is weaker then FT, has no DoT, no AP, and suffers same restrictions as the FT yet costs more XP to grind the Acid Tree and has greater HAM costs on its specials.
Suggested Solutions: Apparent from a total replacement (Ranged Assult Rifle), increase the range to 32m or 64m, increase to AP3 (only Acid weapon currently in game without Armor Piercing), and combine with Flame Thrower Tree). Many of us would accept a slight damage decrease in exchange for a range increase (it is a Rifle after all). There has also been the suggestion of scrapping it's current specials and replacing them with ranged "rifletype specials that cause status effects.
I think its important to make a distinction that we want either increased speed or AP for the HAR to bring it up to par with other weapons, as asking for both isa bit much.
I think I disagree with this a little bit....just a clarification...
The HAR is insuperior to the flamer due to3 facts: (1) It's damage is lesser, (2) it is slower, and (3) it has no dot.
I have seen some calculations where giving the HAR AP2 or AP3 brings it into line with the flamers DPS, but that STILL doesn't account for the DOT.
If the devs are going to balance the HAR's damage with the flamer's damage, I still think a range increase would be appropriate to account for the lack of dot...
garvin wrote:
Anyway...The point I'm trying to make is that even if you could improve our RL's to hit 22 out of 30 times (which would be great), most Commandos would still see them as costing too much when looking at their benefit factor...So no matter how well the RL or Grenade is crafted, the negatives still outweigh the postives to greatly...
There is also another huge factor that plays in here...... DELAY.
My experience has been very similar to Garvin's... I have found that consumable heavy weapons (even good ones)missabout 1/2 to 1/3 the time.
Considering the huge delay commandos have between shots, and the fact that we have few defenses or status effect resistances, the miss % is so great that many commandos cannot afford to take the chance that they will miss. As such, commandos use other weapons that will guarantee better results.
If you could sell meheavy weapons that would cause me to miss 1 or 2 out of 30 shots at master commando, I would surely buy/use them.
However, I am convinced they don't exist. Your superior crafting methods may increase the accuracy from 50% to 75% at Master Commando, but that STILL wouldn't justify the expense or use of heavy weapons for commandos.
).
Brilyn wrote:
I'll drop the price for a week and see how they sell (Oi, Sinjen, this is not your que to buy me out of stock!
What?Reduced price commando gear at Brilyn's shop? 
On to the topic. It is good to understand this fully from all angles if we are going to argue for more power from the Devs. I think Brilyn brings some good discussion here, and it might just be a great warmup to what the Devs argue at the Summit. We can't assume that the Devs have the full breadth and depth of what it is like to play a commando on a daily basis. They have access to numbers and they have an idea about how things "should be". We refer to this as "Dev's intent". For all I know, in the vaccum of space that is the numbers under the hood, they might think that we are "as intended". But we all know that compared to other professions, we are gimped.
I use grenades and the shoulder-mounted heavy weapons every day. I am going to be an exception to the Commando rule right now, because I use a majority of our arsenal.I try not to, while playing, compare my Rocket Launcher to a T21. Because when I do, I know that there is a problem. I know in the back of my mind somewhere, a voice is screaming "switch to TKA! You can own this MOB with TKA!". I feel one thousand credits vaporize every time I see -MISS- float above a creature's head. I know it will be a long, long time of combat every time I fire a weapon before I can do something again.
The general concerns of commandos and consumables are:
- The price per shot is higher than any other weapon in the game.
- The damage per second is lowin many, or even most,cases.
- The cost: benefit ratio is unattractive when compared to other professions and weapons.
And this is definitely true. I know this, but it isn't going to stop me from using every weapon in our arsenal. In fact,a looted Rocket Launcher is what made me decide to be a Commando. And in many cases, I have found grenades and heavy weapons to be much less gimpy than I would have believed from reading the forums.
With Brilyn's tools, I have been able to use Consumable weapons with good result. Not compared to other professions, but compared to other consumable weapons on the market. Also, when compared to my Flamethrower or Heavy Acid Rifle alone. Nightsisters are a hairy proposition without Heavy Weapons. The Commando argument is, I could just switch to TKA and be even better off. And that is theproblem.
It isn't going to cost Riflemen, for instance,90k per fight just to be competitive for loot rights.
So Brilyn, your research and help with commando weapons is not wasted, and it does actually serve to benefit Commando right now before any of the Combat Revamp comes along. I certainly do appreciate it, because you have made the way I play a much more enjoyable experience than it would have been otherwise.
But if you do compare us to other professions that take fewer skillpoints to master, and spend far less money on everyday necessary weapons, then you can see that there definitely are some issues that need addressed in the code of the game. There are also factors that are not as easy to quantify, such as how it feels to be a commando. Right now, I have to admit I don't feel like a big guns, scary, heavy weapons specialist.
Brilyn wrote:
My Heavies are 30k, and my FT is 30k. Mainly because I see FTs for sale for 80k (so I figure I'm cheap) and selling a weapon that does 3k (and up) listed damage per shot for less than 1k per shot kinda jarrs with me.
Issue 5) Consumable Heavy Weapons: Currently their lootable mods are still non-functional. They are often out-damaged due to poor speed and very poor accuracy. They are hard to find due to crafting difficulty. They put the Commando in a very vunerable position when they must stop motion to use them. And they are not worth the price when you balance cost vs. accuracy (not enough shots connect to make them worth the average cost).
ADDED NOTE: You might notice I left off the LP Specials, any mention of unarmed/melee specials, the e-weband some of our other recent requests for addtions to our profession...We have already been told that we are getting a new tree...I figured when we start hearing more about this new tree, that these issues may come up there...I focused on current issues first...after that we can focus on new items.
Message Edited by garvin on 08-24-2004 12:57 PM
My only addtion is to the HAR. If they are unwilling to increase it's range, add AP or connect it to the Rifleman profession, then they should (at the very least) make it on-par with the BH LLC in terms of speed and/or damage. They really need to pay attention to this (currently) useless skill tree. Message Edited by LuciusScipio on 08-24-2004 03:31 PM