Commando Archive
Thread: Commando Assignment #5: Current Commando Top5 (8/24/04) for Review
Message Edited by Raptor2k1 on 08-24-2004 02:25 PM
Brilyn wrote:
< I think we should start this by asking for 1 or 2 of the materials requirements to be changed (or drastically simplified)to make these cheaper. Personally, i would rather buy6 10-shot launchers for 30k each than one 180k launcher. >
/shakehead
With the exception of the RL, *none* of the Heavy Weapons require specific materials.
Dude....stop trying to argue with us on this because you don't understand what we are talking about...
Rocket Launchers ARE the issue. It is our major blast weapon, and our bread and butter against turrets and other GCW fodder.
That is the point...Launchers are WAY to expensive per shot and need to be balanced. When we are talking about "heavy weapons" that really means launchers...
< I think if they simply took out the grenade component requirement and replaced it with something else explosive (like petro fuel), it would make a world of difference. >
I'm not against that kind of change........
But it's a *lot* more complex than that.
If you introduce a new resource, the balance of the existing resources shift......
If you *really* want to know the specifics., either PM me, or post on the WS board. Suffice to say you'll see a stat change, and likely a *drop*. This would not be a 'nerf' as such, just a repercussion of the change in schematic requirements.
If you can accept that, then you'll see a *lot* more RLs in the stores, as it would indeed be far more simple to assemble a RL.
It's only complex if you make it.... Stats are based on the resources.If you change the schematic, you change the formula. If you add a new resource to the formula, stats will drop ONLY if thereare no good resources in the market or resource spawns at the time. I can guarantee there is no shortage of good petro in the market...
Since you are talking about how inexpensive Launchers are, exactly how much do you charge for them?
Last week I bought a flamer for 35k that will last me through 3 months of constant shooting.
I also bought a Rocket Launcher for 30k that has20 or so charges. >
Bearing in mind, this is a server-related question.
I charge 30k per Heavy Weapon. Less than 30 shots, then it's 1k per shot.
At one stage, I charged 20k per weapon, and they all were bought in a couple hours.
Pricing, for me and for others, it not based simply on how hard it is to make a weapon, or the cost of materials.
Quite frequently it's based on "what price stops 1 guy buying *all* my weapons in one go?".
Mainly because if that one guy buys all my weapons, then I'm just another empty vendor that no-one will check again......
Brilyn wrote:
< taking into consideration that even a perfectly crafted RL will not improve accuracy >
That's not true.
I can change the Ideal Range Modifier up or down, in exchange for HAM costs or savings.
I can change it further during final experimentation even further, at a cost of damage/speed.
Then maybe I don't fully understand the "Ideal Range Modifier"...as far as my understanding goes, being in the Ideal range improves the potential for a stronger hit, not basically the odds of scoring a hit...It may improve some, but if you look at the totals on Accuracy for the Commando profession and how low they are comparatively to the weapons they use, even one with the best Ideal range will still mean that an RL will only average about 18 connects out of 30...
Find a Commando and test it...take several average 29 to 30 shot RLs with the best Ideal Range you can find...see if you can get 18 or more shots to connect with their target on average...if you can't, you have our problem right there in a nutshell...30K is to much to pay for a weapon that only has the potential of connecting 18 shots on average...and less then 30K is too little to charge for a weapon that takes so much crafting effort (especially when other weapons of less crafting effort, like the FT, cost around 35K)...That's where the dilema comes in...Cost Vs. Usability...Doesn't matter how perfectly it's crafted...it will still not match up...Our issues actually suggest changes that will make these weapons MORE useful to us and therefore more worthwhile to buy (inturn giving WS's more reason to craft and sell them because demand will raise sharply as Commandos feel the prices better match the usefulness)...
By saying that better Crafting will fix some of these issues, you are in essence hurting WS's in the long run...We are pushing to make these items easiercraft as well as make them more desirable which inturn will crease a WS sales of these weapons...doesn't that help both our communities? Right now I own 2 RLs...I've had them for over 4 months and I only use them on special occasions...if their cost were less and/or some of our improvements went in, I'd be more apt to use them more as well as purchase more...Without these fixes, better crafting isn't going to getme to buy more RLs when I know that the cost won't meet the output...and the same goes for Grenades...I won't actively use them in battle when I can choose other weapons that have less negative effects on me and more on my target...
Daker = RED
Brilyn wrote:
< Dude....stop trying to argue with us on this because you don't understand what we are talking about... >
As usual, I'm not looking to flame or be flamed on these boards.
But when you say "Heavy Weapons" I get confused, and think that you mean, well Heavy Weapons. Rocket Launchers are *1* of the 4 Heavy Weapons.
If it's a RL issue, then say RL. And yes, *you* said launchers. But that issue was stated regarding Heavy Weapons. So I answered regarding Heavy Weapons as a whole.
My comments were to Garvin and the other commandos who are in the process of revising our Top 5 and who understood exactly what I was talking about. It has been a subject in these boards for months...
Let me simplify: All heavy weapons are too expensive per shot. Launchers are the worst of the 4 (by several times) because they take grenades to make (increasing the trouble and number of factory runs). All heavy weapons couldbe simplified to make them cheaper. One example of simplifiction would be to remove the grenade requirement from the RL.
Does that help you understand?
< Launchers are WAY to expensive per shot and need to be balanced.>
The price per shot is a pricing issue, and has nothing to do with SOE.
Wrong! It has everything to do with SOE. SOE determines what resources go into launchers, which determines how much weaponsmiths have to pay to make them and how much WS's charge. If every weaponsmith on ever server is charging prices for Launchers that make them over 1k per shot to shoot, that is an SOE issue.
If it is a pricing issue, I'm sure all the Starsider commandos would love you to sell them Launchers at a loss...
< If you add a new resource to the formula, stats will drop ONLY if thereare no good resources in the market or resource spawns at the time. >
No, it's more complex than that.
If you want to debate this, either PM me, or take it to the WS forum.
I am trying to help my correspondant prepare our Top 5 for the correspondant summit. I could give a rat's rear end about how these thing work, let along debating you on the subject.
There are 3 SIMPLE facts that remain:
(1) Our heavy weapons are VERY inaccurate.
(2) Our heavy weapons are VERY expensive.
(3) Our heavy weapons have almost no utility and use because of 1 and 2.
You can talk about how much more accurate your HWs are than otehr weaponsmiths....they aren't accurate compared to every other weapon in the game. You can talk about how little (yeah right) you charge for them...they are still more expensive than any other weapon in the game.
THAT is the problem we are trying to fix...
If you can think of better ways to fix the above problems on a schematic level...be my guest. However, your comments here are worthless to us...they aren't helping...
Let's not jump on Brilyn too much. He's one of the people that is trying to HELP us get better and more useful weapons. I only wish that they would allow cross server transfer of some of his weapons so we could all try them out!
If he can make a better mousetrap...erm....thing that goes BOOOM....then let's listen to what he has to say. The other issues of our long list of problems goes a lot deeper than the limited area he is trying to address, which deals with some weapons crafting issues. That is a part, albeit not the biggest part, of our problems to date.
Thanks for the attention you've put in on the topic Brilyn. Now to find your twin on Corbantis!
RIEN
Master Commando - Corbantis
garvin wrote:
Our issues actually suggest changes that will make these weapons MORE useful to us and therefore more worthwhile to buy (inturn giving WS's more reason to craft and sell them because demand will raise sharply as Commandos feel the prices better match the usefulness)...
By saying that better Crafting will fix some of these issues, you are in essence hurting WS's in the long run...We are pushing to make these items easiercraft as well as make them more desirable which inturn will crease a WS sales of these weapons...doesn't that help both our communities? Right now I own 2 RLs...I've had them for over 4 months and I only use them on special occasions...if their cost were less and/or some of our improvements went in, I'd be more apt to use them more as well as purchase more...Without these fixes, better crafting isn't going to getme to buy more RLs when I know that the cost won't meet the output...and the same goes for Grenades...I won't actively use them in battle when I can choose other weapons that have less negative effects on me and more on my target...
This is exactly why I went back and amended my answer before Brilyn even started posting in this thread....
As far as fixibility, the real problems are accuracy and cost, and accuracy is more easily fixed with Garvin's proposed solution of doubling the number of charges.
I would also like to reiterate my experience as a commando for Brilyn's benefit:
I have owned4 "heavy weapons" (as you call them) since the game launched and I became a commando (my first love and elite class).
The first I bought because I was a noob and got the cert., shot 3 times, and destroyed because I could do more damage for less HAM and cost with my other weapons.
The second (a RL) I got when I got master commando and used 4 times because I kept missing.
The second and the third (also a RL) were expended in a series of accuracy/damage tests I did to conclude that heavy weapons were not worth shooting.
The fourth I bought last week, and has never been used.
Reality is, no matter how good your heavy weapons are...commandos are not using them. Is that good for weaponsmith sales?
):
garvin wrote:
I wanted to get out a refreshed Top 5 of our issues before I head of the summit for your review and response...I want to see how much of it is addressed prior to and with the Revamp info I will recieve this Friday. As you will see blow, I've re-worked some of our issues, combined some things and only focused on our Top 5 biggest issues. Some of these things may already be addressed (and some we have heard will be) with the Combat Revamp, but I'm going on the idea of "if it's not on TC, it's only speculation"...
Let me know what you think, any changes/alterations or if you think there are more important issues we need addressed (if that's the case, which one would you remove to keep it to 5)? This is fairly rough, but I think I got everything in there...feel free to refer back up to our previous Top 5 issues (stickied above) if need be.
Issue 1) Damage Per Second: Currently Commandos are out-damaged when it comes to DPS by various other professions. This stems mainly from the speed of our weapons combined with our accuracy.
Suggested Solution: By adding +30 Flame Thrower Speed & +30 Heavy Acid Rifle Speed to the Master Commando box, the DPS of the Commando profession would be brought closer on par with other profession under the current system. Via the current ingame speed formula, by increasing our speed per the amount specified, our "after special combat queue delay" will be decreased to just over half what it is currently, and thus our DPS will be increased accordingly.
I think this needs to be expanded to include our thrown weapon and heavy weapon speeds. These weapons are our specials, and there dps should be comprable to any elite classes best special.
Issue 2) Heavy Acid Rifle: The HAR is in desperate need of a total revamp or replacement. The HAR is weaker then FT, has no DoT, no AP, and suffers same restrictions as the FT yet costs more XP to grind the Acid Tree and has greater HAM costs on its specials.
Suggested Solutions: Apparent from a total replacement (Ranged Assult Rifle), increase the range to 32m or 64m, increase to AP3 (only Acid weapon currently in game without Armor Piercing), and combine with Flame Thrower Tree). Many of us would accept a slight damage decrease in exchange for a range increase (it is a Rifle after all). There has also been the suggestion of scrapping it's current specials and replacing them with ranged "rifletype specials that cause status effects.
I think its important to make a distinction that we want either increased speed or AP for the HAR to bring it up to par with other weapons, as asking for both isa bit much.
Issue 3) Lack of Melee Defense: Commandos have the highest Combat related pre-req cost of all profession in game which includes both Melee and Ranged pre-reqs, yet comparatively, it has one of the lowest levels of defenses (based on cost comparison to Master Level). Commandos are also the only Ranged profession that has ALL of it's specials restricted to Melee range of 16m which forces Commandos to take more Melee damage in fights then other Ranged professions that have higher Melee Defenses.
Suggested Solutions: Due to skill point cost and Melee Range restriction, Commando should have same or more Melee Defenses then any other Ranged Profession. More Melee Defense and Def Vs. mods should be added to level 4 trees of Commando as well as Master Commando.
I would take this a step further and ask to four things. First, remove the 2.5x accuracy modifier against heavy weapons. Second, ask for some sort of dodge or counter skill to be added for heavy weapons. Third, ask for a heavy weapons toughness modifier. Fourth, ask for state defenses.
Issue 4) Grenades: Currently Grenades damage the user when caught in it's blast radius. Grenades also have a higher then normal HAM cost when compared to other weapons/specials of similar damage/range capabilities. Other Profession thrown/detonated weapons introduced in game come with lower or no HAM cost and specifically DO NOT damage the user when caught in the blast radius. This includes Combat Medic thrown items and Bounty Hunter/Smuggler Bomb Droids. Both of the previously mentioned items also have greater ranges and greater blast areas. It has been confirmed that occasionally the "ideal" range of a grenade is within the blast radius which translates into "if you want to best use your grenade, you HAVE TO take the same damage yourself PLUS deal with the high HAM cost (this is why they are called Suicide Bombs).
Suggested Solutions: Grenades need be revamped and readjusted. This should include increasing the range and radius, adding status effects, increasing the pack load (to 25 at least per pack) as well as making it so that the blast does not hurt the user.
Given that a grenade can be crafted with the ideal outside the blast radius, I would suggest altering the last part of the text to say that a grenade can be thrown at the ideal range outside of the blast radius and due to the enemy moving and server lag, the user can be caught inside the blast radius by the time that the grenade explodes. It might be helpful to include potential status effects for different grenades, or at least have a list handy.
Issue 5) Consumable Heavy Weapons: Currently their lootable mods are still non-functional. They are often out-damaged due to poor speed and very poor accuracy. They are hard to find due to crafting difficulty. They put the Commando in a very vunerable position when they must stop motion to use them. And they are not worth the price when you balance cost vs. accuracy (not enough shots connect to make them worth the average cost).
Suggested Solutions: Revert Consumable Heavy Weapons back to using generic Heavy Weapon Speed and Heavy Weapon Accuracy skill mods. Consumable Heavy Weapons also need to be altered to AP3 (or at the very least AP2). Reversion will cause Bugged Heavy Weapon Skill Mod Attachments to once again work in game. Heavy Consumable weapons should be either increased to average of 60 or more shots, be reloadable (so we only have to slice them one time) or have higher Accuracy & Speed mods to compensate for price and rarity.
Ok, total revamp here
We, the commando profession, have been told that the original vision for our professions role was to be the heavy weapons specialists of SWG. However, our heavy weapons tree has many failings. First, unlike every other skill in the game, it has no working lootable mods. Second, the more advanced boxes in this tree grant new weapons certifications, but the final speed and accuracy modifiers at master commando for these weapons are less then those weapons that are certified at novice. Third, not all of our heavy weapons are in fact heavy weapons, with the acid stream launcher having only medium armor piercing value (similar to the dxr6b rifle) and the "heavy" lightning cannon has the same light armor piercing value as the light lightning cannon. Fourth, commando weapons suffer from a number of problems when used, namely a low firing rate, a rapid drop off in accuracy when not in ideal range, and they force the user to stop and kneel, putting him/her/it in a very vulnerable postion. Fifth, heavy weapons are very expensive, averaging 1.5-2k credits per round, and over 2k credits per hit. Additionally, our signature weapon, the rocket launcher, is a one of the most complex weapons to craft, leading to limited availability.
Suggested solutions
1) Revert all heavy weapon mods to a single heavy weapon speed and accuracy skill, thereby making all heavy weapons equally useful. This would also allow the use of heavy weapons skill mods.
2) Raise the AP of all heavy weapons to 3.
3) Double the number of charges for heavy weapons or allow these weapons to be reloaded similar to trap droids. Alternatively, make these weapons simpler to craft.
4) Increase the speed and accuracy of heavy weapons or change the accuracy drop off rates of these weapons
- Heavy weapons have lower acc when prone then when standing or kneeling.
- Area of effect damage doesn't apply if the target has not aggroed you.
- You get less experience if the dot burns on a target.
- Heavy weapon experience is capped at 3k.
