Commando Archive
Thread: Anyone else starting to get that sinking feeling about the CU?
StarNick
Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:52 pm
#27
"Also, removing the level system will save the crafters from having to increase their overhead, which they would have to do as combat level 1 characters by hiring a doc/tka to protect/rez them while checking harvesters."
Its not so much removing the system (as you cant really remove the system), but more of a detrimental game component of the system. The only purpose the damage multipliers really serve is to prevent low level folks from taking out stuff they shouldn't be trying to take out and maybe to provide some challenge.
If they just went with defenses being adjustable, as well as the multitide of enemies...that provides more than enough challenge, having damage modifiers ruins gameplay for some and just creates a more restrictive combat atmosphere where you're waiting to get to lvl 25 to fight this tusken raider, as despite good armour, some buffs, and a kickass Launcher Pistol...your level 20 will get his arse kicked because the Tusken will by far be outdamaging YOU.
We have lower resists and lower ham bars...fighting something that has a straight dps like on live now, combined with our disadvantage in defenses and their advantage already makes it challenging and adds the tactical part in already. Adding more is overkill...and detracts.
Its not so much removing the system (as you cant really remove the system), but more of a detrimental game component of the system. The only purpose the damage multipliers really serve is to prevent low level folks from taking out stuff they shouldn't be trying to take out and maybe to provide some challenge.
If they just went with defenses being adjustable, as well as the multitide of enemies...that provides more than enough challenge, having damage modifiers ruins gameplay for some and just creates a more restrictive combat atmosphere where you're waiting to get to lvl 25 to fight this tusken raider, as despite good armour, some buffs, and a kickass Launcher Pistol...your level 20 will get his arse kicked because the Tusken will by far be outdamaging YOU.
We have lower resists and lower ham bars...fighting something that has a straight dps like on live now, combined with our disadvantage in defenses and their advantage already makes it challenging and adds the tactical part in already. Adding more is overkill...and detracts.
Rathask
Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:05 pm
#28
StarNick wrote:
If they just went with defenses being adjustable, as well as the multitide of enemies...that provides more than enough challenge, having damage modifiers ruins gameplay for some and just creates a more restrictive combat atmosphere where you're waiting to get to lvl 25 to fight this tusken raider, as despite good armour, some buffs, and a kickass Launcher Pistol...your level 20 will get his arse kicked because the Tusken will by far be outdamaging YOU.
We have lower resists and lower ham bars...fighting something that has a straight dps like on live now, combined with our disadvantage in defenses and their advantage already makes it challenging and adds the tactical part in already. Adding more is overkill...and detracts.
I'm not sure about the defenses being adjustable - after all, a Tusken Raider will still kill a noob character in no time flat, damage or defense modifiers or no. At least, with no damage multipliers, the noob character in question would have the opportunity to /burstrun away. I think everything should be based on skill mods, not level, but that's my opinion. 
Message Edited by Rathask on 04-15-2005 06:10 PM
Enix_Dayspring
Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:01 pm
#29
StarNick wrote:
For whats it worth, very few folks (including correspondents) like the damage modifiers for a higher level mob verses a lower level player. I hope this can be totally taken out, as not only does it hurt non-combatants (especially crafters), but also creates (in my opinion) a more restrictive and really a WoW/EQ type level game, where level is all that matters and nothing else. If we saw damage modifiers taken out, combat itself would loosen a bit...and we could see some more ease with soloing same/higher level (or multiple mobs of near level), as well as some combat similar to the current system where not EVERYTHING is black and white.
CU is about flexibility and balance...damage modifiers detract from this. Its something quite a few of the correspondents are really pushing for the removal of...
Finally I can post!Been having problems loggin in all day!
I haven't been able to find a post from a dev anywhere about exactly WHY they are adding the leveling system. They have talked alot about making the game more easier for new players, I can only assume that they think all players are able to understand is a leveling system. (hopes thats not the case)
There are so many problems associated with confining players to the leveling system that it's hard to know where to start. And none of them have ANYTHING to do with balancing combat. Its superfluous to what the CURB is supposedly trying to accomplish.
SWG was not designed for players to be restrained to a narrow minded leveling system. The fact that if you are a smart enough player you can figure out how to take on creatures higher up the ladder than you are is part of what makes the game fun. With a leveling system, you're taking that away from people.
It's kind of like communism. It doesn't matter if your skills allow you to excel beyond others. The system is designed toartificially hold you back soyou arejust like everyone else so the people that are below average can keep up.
Beyond this and the crazy things the devs are doing to fix the loopholes of the level up bandaid, I love the CU so far.
Enix_Dayspring
Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:08 pm
#30
Found this on the core systems forum and thought it was a good point.
Raph Koster, aka "Holocron" was the head honcho of SWG design before he moved up and on at SOE. This is taken from an Ultima Online newsgroup in late June of 2000 , as part of a UO "postmordem":
"Levels still suck. I don't know what the complete replacement is, but I am troubled by how addictive the experiences we're making are (like, seriously addictive, ruin-your-life addictive) and I think levels are a large part of that. Plus I still find them divisive of players and a forced limit on interaction, however convenient they may be for advancement ladders. They are a bad model in terms of adding ongoing content to your game, in that you always have to add at the top end, and you have database deflation problems. Lastly, I have trouble fitting in many of the mechanics we were successful in putting into UO, such as crafting, onto standard level systems."
OK, so levels "still sucked" five years ago. What's changed, and why is SOE shifting SWG to an almost complete reliance on something that "sucks" as part of an upgrade?
Message Edited by Enix_Dayspring on 04-15-2005 07:09 PM
StarNick
Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:22 pm
#31
"I'm not sure about the defenses being adjustable - after all, a Tusken Raider will still kill a noob character in no time flat, damage or defense modifiers or no. At least, with no damage multipliers, the noob character in question would have the opportunity to /burstrun away. I think everything should be based on skill mods, not level, but that's my opinion."
Exactly my point
A Tusken Raider is naturally stronger (hence many levels higher) than a newbie player...that defense changed because of the level. This is what I mean by adjustable defenses - as they already happen in the CU Beta 
. (Higher the level = More HAM, harder to kill...BUT just make it not hit harder because theres a level gap)
Exactly my point
A Tusken Raider is naturally stronger (hence many levels higher) than a newbie player...that defense changed because of the level
. This is what I mean by adjustable defenses - as they already happen in the CU Beta . (Higher the level = More HAM, harder to kill...BUT just make it not hit harder because theres a level gap)
Raptor2k1
Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:18 pm
#32
Yeah, that whole damage-taken multiplier is kinda lame... I still can't see a real reason for it. You'd think level 100 stuff having 500k more HP than you in addition to their own natural level 100 damage would be more than enough.
StarNick
Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:23 pm
#33
Yeah...I hope it'll be taken out...
Who knows? We may get a chance...some things concerning levels are changing to accomdate weapon certs soon...
Who knows? We may get a chance...some things concerning levels are changing to accomdate weapon certs soon...
JagdKatze
Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:28 pm
#34
Assuming SOE does what they have the track record of doing; which is to ignore us and f*ck everything up...how do the they expect us to fight a lvl 140+ character with the damage modifier for the level system, even when in a full 8-man group?? The DWB will be once again impossible to go through with less than 20 people, but we cant even have half that number in our group. SBD's will be completely unstoppable, and so will Krayts/ATST's. Their levels are too high for a whole platoon of maxed out characters.
And with anyone not willing to get two accounts (cause 30.00 a month is alot for some people) what happens to the squad who has the bad luck to bring in a guy who is a Master Artisan, or a Ranger? Or...oh God...more than one of each.
I'll tell you what they can do...stay safely tucked away in a static city, cause bringing the group level even one point from maximum against a high-end content character kills every single person in the group.
And assuming they leave the system as is; which wouldnt surprise me in the least, how do we get through the vette? One AOE attack and you have half thepopulation of lvl 120+ creatures raining in on you like a hurricane. MAYBE a full 8-man group of finished combat chars can take out lvl 140'sone at a time, but not three, or four. Of course this could be remedied simply by making AOE attacks actually STOP at doors, walls, floor, and ceilings. But I have my doubts they've done anything to that since NPCs at bestine in TC can shoot through entire buildings.
All they've been testing with the elite profs is how well an 8-man group can kill higher level Banthas, and on occasion people hit Mountain Squills...usually with horror stories of being rezzed about a jillion times. This stuff is supposed to be the low-medium end stuff! And its kicking our ass!
So please tell me StarNick if you can: what do you think the odds are of them reworking AOE attacks to stop at physical barriers, and dropping the damage modifiers on the level system so we can leave the newb cities with less than 4 full groups of full-combat template players togo to Endor, or Yavin?
100:1 ?
1,000:1 ?
1,000,000:1 ?!
StarNick
Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:40 pm
#35
Since we'll be able to get full combat templates in less than 30 minutes...first thing we're doing tomarrow is some dungeon raid tests to see if AoE is stopped by physical barriers. If its not, it'll be a MAJOR issue for us...Im personally hoping it'll be fixed before we even have to test it
As for group levels and damage modifiers...
We've been talking about this for the past few hours on the correspondent forums, ironically enough. I wouldn't count on damage modifiers from changing...but you never know.
However, I caught wind of some new stuff happening with groups. So, even if a level 80 group is fighting against a lvl 140 MOB, the 8 man group won't be slaughtered because the MOB is purple to an individual player.
More specifics...I can't really say, nor really know...but stay tuned for more.
As for group levels and damage modifiers...
We've been talking about this for the past few hours on the correspondent forums, ironically enough. I wouldn't count on damage modifiers from changing...but you never know.
However, I caught wind of some new stuff happening with groups. So, even if a level 80 group is fighting against a lvl 140 MOB, the 8 man group won't be slaughtered because the MOB is purple to an individual player.
More specifics...I can't really say, nor really know...but stay tuned for more.
Message Edited by StarNick on 04-16-2005 01:40 AM
JagdKatze
Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:51 pm
#36
StarNick wrote:
Since we'll be able to get full combat templates in less than 30 minutes...first thing we're doing tomarrow is some dungeon raid tests to see if AoE is stopped by physical barriers. If its not, it'll be a MAJOR issue for us...Im personally hoping it'll be fixed before we even have to test it
As for group levels and damage modifiers...
We've been talking about this for the past few hours on the correspondent forums, ironically enough. I wouldn't count on damage modifiers from changing...but you never know.
However, I caught wind of some new stuff happening with groups. So, even if a level 80 group is fighting against a lvl 140 MOB, the 8 man group won't be slaughtered because the MOB is purple to an individual player.
More specifics...I can't really say, nor really know...but stay tuned for more.
Message Edited by StarNick on 04-16-2005 01:40 AM
Well its not the response I wanted. That would've gone more like
"SOE recognizes your brilliance, and they are not only putting you in charge but are going to pay you the sum of 1 billion dollars."
"SOE recognizes your brilliance, and they are not only putting you in charge but are going to pay you the sum of 1 billion dollars."
But its something I guess. I'll be on testing Commando tomorrow. Thanks for the quick response though either way.
SonVegeta
Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:24 pm
#37
The level system is killing it. Had lvl 80s out to fight a krayt. 1 shot incaps. Dont know how anyones going to survive a krayt. Also, ATST lvl 150. Can we say insta death in PVP?
Ajo79
Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:22 am
#38
First off. I want to see changes to the current combat system as it's not fun.
I've been very supportive of the combat upgrade. I've awaited it a long time and I've been realy looking forward to it.
First tests was fun. I realy liked it. There were bugs and issues. It felt like beta.
Patches havearrived fixed a few issuesbut alsobrought in a lot of new ones, totally unnecesarry! Some of the changes are mind boggling to say at least. What have the devs been thinking about?
I'll continue to read about the curb and hoping it will get better in the coming weeks. But currently I'm kinda low on the CURB. Some serious issues have to be fixed if I'll get my trust back 
Fluxxen
Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:33 am
#39
SonVegeta wrote:
The level system is killing it. Had lvl 80s out to fight a krayt. 1 shot incaps. Dont know how anyones going to survive a krayt. Also, ATST lvl 150. Can we say insta death in PVP?
I thought levels didnt have any effect onPvP?