Commando Archive
Thread: With all due respect...
/stand over large tactical display in command room of a Super Star Destroyer
Soon. Soon we shall show them the power of the Image Desingers. TREMBLE in fear they will. TREMBLE!
Message Edited by RyFord on 09-25-2005 03:49 PM
RyFord wrote:
As a Commando I have sat back and watched quietly, for the most part, as debate after debate has raged regarding a Commando's place in the GCW or in Combat in general. I can only conclude from the readings so far that people are just not grasping the concept of the SOE Commando.
If I may be so bold as to create a squad of Commandos:
1. MC/MS/4xxxCM
2. MC/MS/44x4Pistoleer
3. MC/MCarb/4xxxCM
4. MC/MCarb/4xxxCM
5. MC/MPistol/4xxxCM
6. MC/MSL/2x4xMedic
7. MC/MSwords/xx4xMedic
8. MC/MSwords/xx4xMedic
2 dedicated Crowd Controllers
2 dedicated Damage Dealers
1 dedicated Root/Initimidate/Damage
1 dedicated group commander
2 dedicated Armor Breakers and close quarter damage dealers
I realize that most of the arguments here center around a single commando but I must point out this is a team game. I would like to see a group of another Faction run up into this Squad right here and live to tell about it. Quite simply, if played right, I don't believe you can beat it unless you absolutely outthink them.
I didn't do this to point out anything other than that anyone complaining about Commando is probably selling it a bit short in that EVERY person combines templates. It is the innate abilities of Commando(i.e. RL KD, innate blind, Fire) that only add to the overall effect and Commando, by its defensive abilities, lends itself to being a MORE than capable squad. I now wish I had a Commando Squad of my own to Command on TC
Additionally I would not be opposed to giving up the SL in the current environs and going with MC/MD.
Message Edited by RyFord on 09-25-2005 03:49 PM
RoastyToasty wrote:
RyFord wrote:
As a Commando I have sat back and watched quietly, for the most part, as debate after debate has raged regarding a Commando's place in the GCW or in Combat in general. I can only conclude from the readings so far that people are just not grasping the concept of the SOE Commando.
If I may be so bold as to create a squad of Commandos:
1. MC/MS/4xxxCM
2. MC/MS/44x4Pistoleer
3. MC/MCarb/4xxxCM
4. MC/MCarb/4xxxCM
5. MC/MPistol/4xxxCM
6. MC/MSL/2x4xMedic
7. MC/MSwords/xx4xMedic
8. MC/MSwords/xx4xMedic
2 dedicated Crowd Controllers
2 dedicated Damage Dealers
1 dedicated Root/Initimidate/Damage
1 dedicated group commander
2 dedicated Armor Breakers and close quarter damage dealers
I realize that most of the arguments here center around a single commando but I must point out this is a team game. I would like to see a group of another Faction run up into this Squad right here and live to tell about it. Quite simply, if played right, I don't believe you can beat it unless you absolutely outthink them.
I didn't do this to point out anything other than that anyone complaining about Commando is probably selling it a bit short in that EVERY person combines templates. It is the innate abilities of Commando(i.e. RL KD, innate blind, Fire) that only add to the overall effect and Commando, by its defensive abilities, lends itself to being a MORE than capable squad. I now wish I had a Commando Squad of my own to Command on TC
Additionally I would not be opposed to giving up the SL in the current environs and going with MC/MD.
Message Edited by RyFord on 09-25-2005 03:49 PM
1. MC/MS/4xxxCM
2. MC/MS/44x4Pistoleer
3. MR/MCarb/4xxxCM
4. MR/MCarb/4xxxCM
5. MC/MPistol/4xxxCM
6. MR/MSL/2x4xMedic
7. TKM/MSwords/xx4xMedic
8. TKM/MSwords/xx4xMedic
Or use MBH instead of MR for the MCarb temps. So if you mean mass crowd control and mass states, then I agree. I would have to say that on Damage we are not anywhere near any other ranged profession until they fix our AOE and give us at least a damage special.
Conversely, TK is no longer a Damage Dealer but they also, when combined with another template, become quite effective overall.
Also my efforts here center solely around making a cohesive Commando Squad.
Message Edited by RyFord on 09-25-2005 05:00 PM
With all due respect, combining carbines with that Swordsman would provide greater benefit than combining it with Commando. The only professions that benefit greatly from those group roles you have listed, are the crowd control specialists. As a Master Commando/ Master Smuggler since the CU went live (I used to dabble both and combine with TKM), I'm very familiar with what Commando provides the Smuggleror Pistoleer. Things become less rosey, however, for other profession combinations and Commando. This is not to say that an area of effect can't be useful to other professions, only that in terms of damage dealing capability, Commando lags farbehind other combinations. Take those carbineers and mixBounterHunter, or Combat Medic in instead of Commando, and yourcombat capability increases.We do have damage capability, but if you stick to heavy weapons, your pvp dps (minimum damage divided by attack speed) with commando weapons is going to fall in the range of 350. A Carbineer with MBH can easily hit a pvp dps of 600, and a Combat Medic/ Carbineercan outdamage the Commando with DOT and weapon both as well as heal effciently. What you illustrate is how a well organized and diversified team can overcome the handicap of a less than stellar profession if that team plays intelligently.
While I agree that pitfalls can be overcome with smart and organized play, this really does nothing to adress the serious shortcomings in the Commando profession. So, if people seem depressedthat they need a group to accomplish what a single player can ordinarily solo, I think that's justified. If they see other professions getting patch after patch dedicated to increasing their in game enjoyment (Jedi and Bounty Hunter) rancor and resentment are certain to follow close on the heels of that depression. For high end content and group pvp, I think commando can a nice compliment to a group.... with the right template. That IMO is the problem. There should be many more "right" templates for commando that there currently are. No, we're not completely helpless, but we should also beconsiderably better than we are at outputting raw damage.
Tyyylowyspetily wrote:
With all due respect, combining carbines with that Swordsman would provide greater benefit than combining it with Commando. The only professions that benefit greatly from those group roles you have listed, are the crowd control specialists. As a Master Commando/ Master Smuggler since the CU went live (I used to dabble both and combine with TKM), I'm very familiar with what Commando provides the Smuggleror Pistoleer. Things become less rosey, however, for other profession combinations and Commando. This is not to say that an area of effect can't be useful to other professions, only that in terms of damage dealing capability, Commando lags farbehind other combinations. Take those carbineers and mixBounterHunter, or Combat Medic in instead of Commando, and yourcombat capability increases.We do have damage capability, but if you stick to heavy weapons, your pvp dps (minimum damage divided by attack speed) with commando weapons is going to fall in the range of 350. A Carbineer with MBH can easily hit a pvp dps of 600, and a Combat Medic/ Carbineercan outdamage the Commando with DOT and weapon both as well as heal effciently. What you illustrate is how a well organized and diversified team can overcome the handicap of a less than stellar profession if that team plays intelligently.
While I agree that pitfalls can be overcome with smart and organized play, this really does nothing to adress the serious shortcomings in the Commando profession. So, if people seem depressedthat they need a group to accomplish what a single player can ordinarily solo, I think that's justified. If they see other professions getting patch after patch dedicated to increasing their in game enjoyment (Jedi and Bounty Hunter) rancor and resentment are certain to follow close on the heels of that depression. For high end content and group pvp, I think commando can a nice compliment to a group.... with the right template. That IMO is the problem. There should be many more "right" templates for commando that there currently are. No, we're not completely helpless, but we should also beconsiderably better than we are at outputting raw damage.
I boldened your comments because you have just proven what I said. This is about putting temnplates togheter. Bounty Hunter is nothing without the secondary template to complement it. Jedi is nothing unless you dabble in a mixture of disciplines. No profession is worth it without dabbling. Bounty Hunter is the equivalent of Commando in that it is useless without a secondary template to give it the kick needed to make it effective.
Thanks for proving my point. 
Tyyylowyspetily wrote:
With all due respect, combining carbines with that Swordsman would provide greater benefit than combining it with Commando. The only professions that benefit greatly from those group roles you have listed, are the crowd control specialists. As a Master Commando/ Master Smuggler since the CU went live (I used to dabble both and combine with TKM), I'm very familiar with what Commando provides the Smuggleror Pistoleer. Things become less rosey, however, for other profession combinations and Commando. This is not to say that an area of effect can't be useful to other professions, only that in terms of damage dealing capability, Commando lags farbehind other combinations. Take those carbineers and mixBounterHunter, or Combat Medic in instead of Commando, and yourcombat capability increases.We do have damage capability, but if you stick to heavy weapons, your pvp dps (minimum damage divided by attack speed) with commando weapons is going to fall in the range of 350. A Carbineer with MBH can easily hit a pvp dps of 600, and a Combat Medic/ Carbineercan outdamage the Commando with DOT and weapon both as well as heal effciently. What you illustrate is how a well organized and diversified team can overcome the handicap of a less than stellar profession if that team plays intelligently.
While I agree that pitfalls can be overcome with smart and organized play, this really does nothing to adress the serious shortcomings in the Commando profession. So, if people seem depressedthat they need a group to accomplish what a single player can ordinarily solo, I think that's justified. If they see other professions getting patch after patch dedicated to increasing their in game enjoyment (Jedi and Bounty Hunter) rancor and resentment are certain to follow close on the heels of that depression. For high end content and group pvp, I think commando can a nice compliment to a group.... with the right template. That IMO is the problem. There should be many more "right" templates for commando that there currently are. No, we're not completely helpless, but we should also beconsiderably better than we are at outputting raw damage.
In looking for a confirmation of your views, you have ignored my point. I've boldened the sections that are central to it.
Tyyylowyspetily wrote:
Tyyylowyspetily wrote:
With all due respect, combining carbines with that Swordsman would provide greater benefit than combining it with Commando. The only professions that benefit greatly from those group roles you have listed, are the crowd control specialists. As a Master Commando/ Master Smuggler since the CU went live (I used to dabble both and combine with TKM), I'm very familiar with what Commando provides the Smuggleror Pistoleer. Things become less rosey, however, for other profession combinations and Commando. This is not to say that an area of effect can't be useful to other professions, only that in terms of damage dealing capability, Commando lags farbehind other combinations. Take those carbineers and mixBounterHunter, or Combat Medic in instead of Commando, and yourcombat capability increases.We do have damage capability, but if you stick to heavy weapons, your pvp dps (minimum damage divided by attack speed) with commando weapons is going to fall in the range of 350. A Carbineer with MBH can easily hit a pvp dps of 600, and a Combat Medic/ Carbineercan outdamage the Commando with DOT and weapon both as well as heal effciently. What you illustrate is how a well organized and diversified team can overcome the handicap of a less than stellar profession if that team plays intelligently.
While I agree that pitfalls can be overcome with smart and organized play, this really does nothing to adress the serious shortcomings in the Commando profession. So, if people seem depressedthat they need a group to accomplish what a single player can ordinarily solo, I think that's justified. If they see other professions getting patch after patch dedicated to increasing their in game enjoyment (Jedi and Bounty Hunter) rancor and resentment are certain to follow close on the heels of that depression. For high end content and group pvp, I think commando can a nice compliment to a group.... with the right template. That IMO is the problem. There should be many more "right" templates for commando that there currently are. No, we're not completely helpless, but we should also beconsiderably better than we are at outputting raw damage.
In looking for a confirmation of your views, you have ignored my point. I've boldened the sections that are central to it.
Your comment ignored me COMMANDO CENTRIC points to begin with. Every template is based on a starting template of MASTER COMMANDO. This is a COMMANDO forum based on things COMMANDO.
kthx
Samun wrote:
RyFord wrote:
I boldened your comments because you have just proven what I said. This is about putting temnplates togheter. Bounty Hunter is nothing without the secondary template to complement it. Jedi is nothing unless you dabble in a mixture of disciplines. No profession is worth it without dabbling. Bounty Hunter is the equivalent of Commando in that it is useless without a secondary template to give it the kick needed to make it effective.
Thanks for proving my point.
If I understand the primaryintention of your original post, it was that if built correctly, a squad of master commandos can be a rather powerful force in PvP.
I will agree with that.
What I believe Tyyylowyspetily was stating is that Commando, as it stands now, is a less-desireable alternative to many combat professions, due to what it adds (or does not add) to a template. Your squad that you have constructed is effective, but could be more effective if you used other professions.
To claim that Bounty Hunter is useless as Commando by itself is... well...
Bounty Hunter
Melee Defense: 95
Ranged Defense: 120
General Ranged Speed: 40
General Ranged Accuracy: 85
Improved Duelist Stance: +250 Defense
Improved Confusion Shot: Dizzy State, Stun State*
Improved Eye Shot: Blind State*
Improved Underhand Shot: Knockdown State*
Torso Shot: Bleed DoT*
Improved Spray Shot: *WORKING* (full damage) AoE*
Improved Critical Shot: Heightened Chance for a +Critical+ shot*
*All specials made available to this profession can be used without switching from your most damaging weapon
Commando
Melee Defense: 95
Ranged Defense: 70
General Ranged Speed: 25
General Ranged Accuracy: 95
Heavy Weapon Speed: 45
Heavy Weapon Accuracy: 55
No Specials. We can apply the following states (though it requires switching between weapons to do so):
Blind State
Knockdown State
We can apply a fairly powerful DoT in the form of our Fire DoT, though it's application is certainly not dependable.
We have the ability to AE, though the damage to all but the primary target:is Elemental Damage + 1
Is it possible to build a squad of commandos that can accomplish anything? Sure. Is it possible to drive a car with your feet? Sure.
Because both are possible, does that mean they're a good idea? No.
You state in the original post that... "I can only conclude from the readings so far that people are just not grasping the concept of the SOE Commando."
Referring to what the official SOE Commando concept was (taken from the official Combat Upgrade documentation found here)...
Commando Primary Role: Heavy Weapon Specialist Secondary Role: Medium Range Damage Specialist Offense: Very Strong(5) Defense: Moderate(3) Crowd Control: Minimal(1)
The Commando is the specialist of Heavy Weapons. An entire line of unique heavy weapons are available in the Commando's arsenal. The Commando also receives many bonuses making them more proficient with standard weapons when combined with other profession skills. Whatever the damage dealing requirement is for a situation, the Commando has the answer.
Profession Mixing Tip: Commandos are intended to be the weapon specialists and are the final heavy damage dealing profession along with Rifleman and Swordsman. Commandos focus on their potent damage dealing capability rather than having a varied utility or strong defensive ability. Adding additional ranged profession skills to a Commando creates a very potent damage specialist because instead of having a few special abilities for a specific set of weapons, they can now stack their profession with other professions to gain a wide variety of special abilities. Alternatively Commandos may decide to increase their tactical flexibility by learning skills from other professions.
What people 'are not grasping' is how our profession's role hasdone a complete 180 since the Combat Upgrade launched, yet our skillset (no skills.. your weapons are powerful enough) does not reflect this change. Our profession tree was built around an idea, but then we were given the exact opposite.
Don't get me wrong... I LOVE the all-Commando team, but unless they're die-hard commandos, it ain't happening. Why? Because it's foolish.
Foolish? Test us in one week on Test Center. Since that is a centralized server with no major benefit to either side, get any and all people you want for this fight it doesn't particularly matter. As a full time PvPer and ALL THE TIME WINNER I will look forward to being challenged with an ALL COMMANDO team.
kthx