Commando Archive

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razorwind0 wrote:

I would like to add that something needs to be done about our SAC to damage ratio. As it stand other professions are able to do more damage for longer periods of time be cause of their lower sac cap and at longer ranges. If our sac cap is to remain at 100 then our damage needs to be GREATLY increased or our sac needs to be brought inline with other weapon types like rifles or carbines. /snip/

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I wholeheartedly concur. In an earlier email (that got included in the verbatim post I'm proud to say) I had indicated that our DPS needs to come out "X% (you pick the number)" higher than other professions. Based on Razorwind's suggestion that SAC and DPS need to be correlated (big fancy word for higer SAC = higher DPS), then we can solve for X.

If a rifle SAC is capped at 80 and HW Cap at 100 SAC, then X would be 25%. That means our weapons (without PuP, since the PFT won't take them) need to deal 25% MORE dps than a CL54 Rifle (WITH PuP since all of them can be PuP'd) over the same period of time. Measuring over the same period of time is CRUCIAL, because our SAC will cause us to be unable to use specials while the lower SAC rifles can keep special shooting away.

That would make us merely EQUAL to a Rifleman's CL54 dps. There are a lot of arguments that a commando, with the higher skill point investment than a Rifleman, should have a damage output a little higher than the Riflemans output. As a result, the SAC = DPS correlation suggests we need something more than a 25% (target 30%?) DPS increase.

Then and only then would our Higher SAC produce results of a "5" as a damage dealer.

I whole heartedly agree.. I'm currently gridning out commando to go with master teras kasi. I cannot get rid of TK for the sake of ill be cut to pieces by jedi and melee, but staying melee/ranged leaves me with using the followign attacks in pvp:

TKM- Combo attack and Melee hit

Commando- Ranged Shot and Over charged shot.

Can commando maybe getone or two attacks to help us out here?

PERFECT man JUST PERFECT.

Now if only the devs would stick their heads out their arse and DO instead of TALK.

Great list.

If I might suggest as a possible cure for the rare status of our best weapon (proton rifle)-

How hard would it be to add another lootable box to avatar station and place a schematic for a craftable version of this weapon?

I really hope your ship finally comes in!! You guys remain to be the last of the pre cu professions that have been beat around like a red head step child.

So much potential in Commando .. but the devs just never seem to committ themselves .. perhaps they are afraid of the sheer powerhouses you would become.

Hope you get your fixes soon .. I'm tired of seeing everybody as a MBH.

Great job. They better follow this, or there's gonna be a whole lot of flaming, the Flamethrower way. That's no threat, it's a promise!

Great job as usual Starnick!!

But I wonder ,guys, when did you see for the last time a red name post something on the commando forum ?

That would back when Blixtev was attempting to fix our AoE a few publishes back (between 19-21 if I remember).

I wasn't entirely sastified with the older issues list, so while working on some papers and the guide, I just went back and did a small facelift and added a bit more detail where things should have been added.

And lastly, the last issue is a bit of a question rather than a "problem n solution" type thing. Its a tad (to use lightly) detrimental when our PFT can't A) Benefit really from rifleman's best special, since afterall we rely on other profession's specials in the first place. Plus...our AoE only comes close to being "the most powerful in the game" when its used with other weapon specials anyways.. and B) The range can't be extended with the cybernetic arms...

When you have a culmination of a few subtle issues like that which presents itself into an issue that contradicts how they designed commando, its a bit of a knee-jerker.

Hi,

Nice work StarNick,

As a self confessed dabbler from the Smuggler side of things, please keep in mind the need for weapon AOE to compiment (mainly smuggler, cant really talk for most other professions) other professions specials.

I fully recognise the need for Master Commando to mean somthing and would want as much for any Master profession but the Master / dabbler mix is sure to be a fun one.

Keep it in mind.

Cheers
Teshma.

Well, since our PFT is an AoE weapon...having the Proton Rifle as a non-AoE weapon might be really good.

Look at it this way:

*The devs think our AoE as is (when fixed), is potential to be unbalanced...hence our "power" stems from that. But it really isn't power per say. Its potential power.*

Now...we want more than just AoE, so it somewhat makes sense having restrictions on our AoE to pave the way for specials and front-loaded damage. Now, with limited AoE...we get a plus in damage with a spray effect, and with our own damage specials allow those weapons to function like normal weapons in regards to their initial damage as well. It also dawned on me (and hence to write this reply) that maybe this could further be "balanced" with the range restrictions....

Its logical if you think about it. Imagine getting an improved legshot-type special in commando, with an unenhanced PFT we would be doing around 1700-1800 damage before resists. That would produce roughly 800-900 or so in splash damage if 45% were applied to secondary targets. Further add the range restriction in. Our PFT would be a "in your face" close-support weapon that could tear up an entire squad in a small area...ideally what a real flamethrower should be like.

So...AoE weapons would be:

*Short Ranged
*Spray Effect
*Damaging

Then...this allows the longer ranged weapons (ie rocket launcher, HPBC, Proton Rifle) to be front-loaded weapons. These would be normal single target HW's that could really tear through a person or vehicle from a longer range. If these were AoE, even with limited AoE...there could be chance that this would be deemed "overpowered" if we had specials within our own profession. It might or might not be, but Im looking at it through the devs' eyes.

So...front-loaded would be:

*long ranged
*single target
*Damaging

Both types of course would benefit from built in states. And essentially, this would give us a balanced form of two types of damages that also give flexibility depending on what type of weapon they're using and their target.

Hence, you couldn't have great AoE, great range, great damage all in one package - there must be pro's and con's. Right now our Con's are our high SAC/slow speed...and worse of all, no damage...which is a very heavy cost for having all-AoE in a damage dealer.

The high SAC and slow speed should -not- be a problem since all of our weapons would/do have built in state effects, but how our "damage" (AoE) was implemented in my opinion was so poor that it actually hinders us, and makes us inflexible in the role of a damage dealer. You try and change something to give us better damage, you overpower us...you correct that, you underpower us...we can't have it all built into one system; we must have some built into a few systems that flesh the profession out a bit more. The best analogy I could give for this would be like trying to balance an elephant on a small ball...a good foundation for a good idea matters, as you can continually build off it without threatening the whole structure...

So, in conclusion we'd get not only damage, but the flexibility as well as uniqueness that was originally pitched to us in the CU. The fact that AoE would "limit" our power and keep us in check was only part of the puzzle We could do damage as a rifleman (nuker...although they have probs too) or swordsman (using armour break to get into chinks of armour), and like them (sniper and armour breaker) have our own unique style: Flexible Destruction.

Message Edited by StarNick on 09-16-2005 07:28 PM

Existing Skill Pre-requisite: Unarmed IV/Brawler--29 SP.

This only provides Commandos with +10 Melee Defense while having a heavy weapon equipped.

Change to: Medical Support IV/Medic--29 SP.

Provides useful skills and mods

• Bacta Shot


• Diagnose


• Drag Incapacitated Player


• +25 Healing Efficiency

These skills are helpful in keeping alive both an individual Commando and the group the Commando supports. Furthermore, since this skill tree is only shared with Doctor (which requires another tree), Commando remains a hybrid profession that does not lend itself to any other offensive elite profession.

Avoids play styles that can be more frustrating than fun. While holding a heavy weapon, a Commando can neither use Center of Being nor Taunt, the only unique skills gained from the current Unarmed pre-req (KD recovery is also in Novice Marksman). The process of stopping an attack, unequipping, using a skill, re-equipping, then restarting the attack needs to be repeated so frequently that it is ineffective, and often results in a worse situation than if the Commando were to simply ignore these skills.

Balances usefulness of pre-requisite skills. Hybrid combat professions deal with pre-requisite skills in two ways. The first is seen in Bounty Hunter and Combat Medic, the second with Smuggler.

• Bounty Hunters receive Terrain Negotiation +40 and Burst Run Efficiency +40, as well as the skills Mask Scent and Harvest Corpse.


• Combat Medics obtain KD recovery, +25 Ranged Defense, +10 Melee Defense, several defensive ranged combat moves, as well as +30 Ranged Accuracy and +5 Ranged Speed to help them out with their profession-specific ranged weapons.


• Smugglers, like Commandos, use Unarmed IV as a pre-req. However, they gain an additional +25 Unarmed Speed along with +45 Unarmed Accuracy, making a Smuggler more deadly in hand-to-hand than a Commando.

Message Edited by Eunuya on 09-18-2005 08:54 PM

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"I think the most important reason to be getting married is that you have a perfecty chance of making a hero who would change the poor country to a rich country." -- 3rd Grade Student

Please don't give us a medic pre-req. I know that healing is the new 80% composite, but it's just not Commando. UA IV actually fits the idea of Commando, I'm more for letting us use melee specials (at 5m) with a heavy weapon equipped. This is more than just center of being, this is ANY melee special, just make them only usable at 5m range. That would make Commando a true hybrid profession while keeping things balanced. Smugglers could get the same benefit I think. I don't think this would be unbalancing because a Commando or Smuggler + Melee hybrid gives up either ranged or melee mods to gain the ability to use certain melee specials. In the UA IV pre-req, the only skills worth noting are leg sweep (5m KD) and center of being. Any smuggler has firearm strike which is a 5m KD just the same, and Commandos have Rocket launchers so being able to use leg sweep is not a major plus to current Commando or Smuggler templates. Both templates can already use CoB, but they have to switch weapons to do it. So enableing Commandos and Smugglers to use melee specials will be a minor (but much appreaciated) improvement. The big improvement comes when mixing Commando or Smuggler with a Melee template. The ability to use melee specials would in my opinion make a Commando or Smuggler Melee hybrid feasable and balanced. Imagine applying an armor break or the bleed from fencer or the dizzy from Teras Kasi without having to switch your weapon. Of course this would be balanced by the fact that a Commando or Smuggler could only perform these specials at 5m. As I write this I realize that a Hybrid can do all of these things by switching weapons in the middle of battle, but switching between weapons like this in battle can be dangerous due to lag. I think allowing Commando and Smuggler to bypass the weapon switching would be nice compensation for the extra 15 SP invested in pre-reqs. Combat Medics and Bounty Hunters are two of the most poweful classes in the game and rightfully so since they also take an extra 15 SP's to master. I think it's time to rebalance all hybrid combat professions (Rangers and Squad leaders are getting their revamps so hopefully this helps them) to account for the extra 15 SP invested in them. SP should be the way to balance classes, not how long it takes to grind them. *cough* Jedi *cough* Anyways, I know this went a bit beyond the scope of the question so I'll just say let Commandos and Smugglers use Melee specials at 5m with a weapon equipped.