Commando Archive
Thread: Commandos should fo the most damage.
Well see gray the problem with everyone's reasoning when it comes to bounty hunters and their abilities is that our weapon lines are made with singular purposes. The carbine line is for adding states to the character and knockdowns, we have no main large damage special there. The pistol is our bleeds/heavy damage line, we have nothing else we can do with the pistol but do heavy damage. The LLC is our group control weapon with its cone effects, its worthless against a single target. The bounty hunter is better at DAMAGE than a pistoleer, the bounty hunter is better at applying STATES than the carbineer, and the LLC well the commando has us trounced on group support so thats a non-issue. A BH fighting ONLY with a pistol is a moron and is using maybe 50% of his potential, a BH using all weapons in harmony is 100% combat and will destroy pretty much any other weaponclass 1 on 1. We spend MORE skill points in pure combat than a pistoleer, rifleman, or carbineer, and just as many as the commando (you guys go unarmed, we make trap grenades in scout).
So saying that a carbineer should be better at the carbine than us isn't very clear, should he be better all around? Well he certainly does have infinitely more flexibility with a carbine than a BH. Should he be better at pure damage? Well he is already better at that than us aswell. Should he be better at applying states? Well if your talking about 1 on 1 he can't but he can against groups of people.
Pistoleer is more tricky cause everyone seems to focus on just damage but even then, torso shot is bodyshot and healthshot3 rolled into 1, its also our 209 skill point used. We still will never do as much raw damage as stopping or fan shot though with a pistol. We still won't get any knockdowns or AoE attacks with a pistol. And, we still won't get any defensive bonuses that the pistoleer gets to aid in survival.
A BH is made for the single purpose of 1 on 1 combat, thats what we do and we do it well but only when we use ALL our weapons in conjuction with each other, and if you haven't noticed, doing that is alot harder than spamming a single shot with a single weapon.
I'm sorry bleda - but take it to the pistoleer/bounty hunter forums.
I am not trying to put ANY profession down here, but Bounty Hunters are the worst offenders across the boards - you post on everyone elses boards defending your "right" to be the best combat class - its bunk, pure and simple.
So bounty hunters spend a lot of points to be bounty hunters - big whup, so do commandos - so does a master ranger who took master marksman as well, it doesn't entitle you to ANYTHING. (and believe me a LOT more of commandos pre-req points are "wasted" - master scout is nothing to sneeze at,mask scentand terrain nav mean a heck of a lot more in pve and pvp than the commandos specialist unarmed does)
Bounty hunters should be *good* with a pistol, but a pistoleer should be bettter, same for carbine/carbineerand the same for rifle/rifleman (as an aside LLC should be lighter and rifle skill). The bounty hunters extra points should be reflected in his "extra" abilities - dirty tricks, tracking down fugitives etc. (and yes I think BHs should get the "tracking" ability they are adding to rangers as well - or something close)
Gray its your closed mindedness that makes me glad that the average person is NOT the devs. You ignored ALL my points and either A) didn't feel like acknowledging them or B) are so blinded by envy/jealousy that you REFUSE to acknoweldge them. Please explain to me how a BH being good at one, and only one thing with a weapon makes them suddenly better than the proffession that is able to solo using ONLY that weapon? A bh CAN NOT just solo with his pistol, a pistoleer does it EASILY. That in itself should be simple enough to understand even if you refuse to do it. We do GOOD damage with the pistol (NOT the best either stopping shot does up to 3 times as much as our best shot). We CAN'T knockdown, we DON'T get defensive bonuses while using our pistol, we DON'T get certified with the most powerful pistol in the game ( a well made Dx2 with great components has about 150% the damage of the best scatter and much lower HAM costs), we are NOT as accurate with the pistol (only have more accuracy when we are standing perfectly still, not kneeling, prone, or most importantly, moving). Anyone who sits down and actually thinks about the way the BH works easily realizes what the BH's weapons are for and what their strengths and weakness are.
Crashcart you know what you described of a BH sneaking up on someone and killing them with out them knowing they are there sounds infinitly more like an assassin than an actual BH. In the EU very rarely did the master sneak up on their targets and then get away scot free, infact more often than not it was a huge firefight with the BH being out numbered and his COMBAT skills saving his butt. Now your still going to cry well thats not how *I* think a BH should be!!!! Then try to fit your BH model to an MMORPG, would a character that never shows up on the radar, and kills in 1 hit with out you being able to see him sound very fun? Or would you rather get to fight the merc sent to kill you?
Oh and Gray in no way did i say we should be the best combat class,i said we should be the best ONE ON ONE, the commando is the obvious choice for GROUP ON GROUP combat with the way they are built. Criticizing a BH's ability to destroy lesser characters 1 on 1 is like criticizing a commando for using cone Flame and Acid attacks or grenades against groups. Its stupid, and show lack of maturity, intellect, and insight into game mechanics.
Oh and for the guy who said scout has to do more with combat than brawler for a commando, your **edit** straight it does,particularly when the NPC traps come in.But i must digress on combat XP, its a joke compared to bounty hunter XP, iwould have well over 1/2 a million right now of combat XP if it didn't cap and that comes ONLY from BH marks and i still need all of Investigation 4.
I'd love to toss more insults, but I will stick to your supposed points, hmm I admit I'm having trouble finding them, but lets see - (oh yeah and as I said - this all really belongs in pistoleer or BH forums)
"torso shot is bodyshot and healthshot3 rolled into 1" Yep - thank you for admitting that one right there, Torso shot is the best pistoleer bleed and Health damage shot combined into one - sure sounds better to me.
"will never do as much raw d amage as stopping or fan shot though with a pistol." No - you just get Eyeshot - which targets an unhealable pool and causes state effects
"won't get any knockdowns or AoE attacks with a pistol." - Area shot doesn't work currently, Disarm2 was never supposed to be an AOE knockdown and will stop being one next patch - besides you get a KD with carbine - you want one with every weapon you get?
"And, we still won't get any defensive bonuses that the pistoleer gets to aid in survival." Shame most of them don't work - but you are right, BHs seem geared to be totally offense - thats why you get (in a single pistol skill line) +50 pistol speed and accuracy - for comparison only a full master pistoleer has +49 speed and an effective +55 accuracy - oh yeah and by the way, the Pistoleer is already "spotting" the BH 10pts of accuracy and 5 of speed from Master marksman(yeah yeah of course the pistoleer COULD be a master marksman as well - but that starts poking serious holes in the "bh spend more points" defense.) (PS that one line cost the BH 1.2 million pistol exp /20 skillpoints - the Master pistoleer spends 3.85 million / 63 skill points - don't ya think maybe pistoleer deserves a little more for it? eh?)
"A BH is made for the single purpose of 1 on 1 combat" And every other combat class was made for what? Soloing gnorts? TKAs seem pretty designed for 1-1..hmm so do Fencers? Pikemen? I think I can honestly say that the only "combat" classes NOT designed for 1-1 were Squad Leader and CH (okay Commandos are iffy)
"A bh CAN NOT just solo with his pistol, a pistoleer does it EASILY." Thats funny - I will promptly go tell my bounty hunter friends to stop soloing at once! Clearly their ability to kill things in half the time it takes me is pure illusion.
I'd love to know where this gem came from, "( a well made Dx2 with great components has about 150% the damage of the best scatter and much lower HAM costs)." Find better scatter pistols would be my answer..everyone I have seen blows away my DX2. Besides - even if this is somehow true and the resources on my server have conspired to show otherwise - its a WEAPON issue not a proffession one.
This is flat out wrong, "we are NOT as accurate with the pistol (only have more accuracy when we are standing perfectly still, not kneeling, prone, or most importantly, moving). " Unless the Pistoleer is also a master marksman, the BH has +60 acc/+55spd compared to the pistoleer at +55acc/+49spd - even if he is a master marksman the Pistoleer is at +65acc/+54spd - hardly a dominance. The only time the pistoleer is more accurate is if he aims - which is hardly ever done.
Does that adequately address your points? Btw- In a generic sense, you don't want BHs to be the best combat class - yet you want to be the best one on one, as good as a carbineer with a carbine and as good as a pistoleer with a pistol?? Connect the dots on that one...
Commandos should be:
Masters of AE damage(note: DAMAGE, not states[with the exception of two knockdowns])
Masters of vehicle/installation destruction
Commandos should NOT be:
Deulists
Fast attackers
Status hitters
Soloists (to a reasonable degree)
The best contribution a commando should be able to make to the group is a single/AE knockdown with the flamethrower or the rapid destruction of a vehicle/installation. That is the commando's niche, and if you want it any different, pick up some other combat skills.
Torso shot puts it all at once, the pistoleer can still do his best healthshot and his best bleed, and he can do it for LESS HAM.
Eyeshot is no different than a rifleman, TKA, swordsman, fencer, pikeman, or scout. ALL those classes do damage to an unhealable pool. But that still doesn't mean we are doing more damage at all,fanshot and stopping shot can kill in 2 hits pretty easily, eyeshot takes 5-6 on most characters, and against a character with half a brain that evens out his ham bars its not even worth the trouble of doing eyeshot.
Area shot may not work but its still a skill and i am sure its going to be fixed is it. Disarm isn't the knockdown i was talking about though i ment pistol whip which works out to 16 meters and is spammable. Bounty hunters get the knockdown with the carbine but i thought we were talking pistols here Gray, so it doesn't matter if we have a carbine knockdown since that in no way shape or form translates into more effective pistol skills does it?
Pistoleers get more accuracy bonuses when youtake into account the moving, standing, and kneeling bonuses they get. With the new patch for moving penalties this will be much more pronouced now. The speed is 1 point, give me a break not a big bonus there at all especially with the 1 second cap, i will trade 1 point of speed if it makes a whiny pistoleer happy though. The BH spends186 points to get BH pistol 4 alone, don't you think the BH deserves a little something for it, especially more than someone who spent 92? The skill point argument goes to the BH's side, every time all the time. They spent 63 in pistoleer and within those 63 they split it up between defense, speed and accuracy, and specials, its not all spent in direct damage output is it?
The BH was made for the sole purpose of 1 on 1 RANGEDcombat. Everyone else, EVERYONE has the ability to gain significant group attacks, group bonuses, and general combat skills. A pistoleer isn't JUST a pistoleer, he is also a CH, or a squad leader, or a combat medic, or a carbineer, or GASP even a bounty hunter, and everything other than bounty hunter they can take to master aswell! The carbineer was also not designed for 1 on 1 so much as being flexible with their weapon beyond all others, they get both group and single person attacks, they are almost as much group combat class as the commando. The melee proffessions are 1 on1 CQB, they destroy any ranged character in their personal space, thats kind of the draw back of melee though is that you have to be close.
The gem your talking about is very true, the Dx2 is the superior weapon when produced to its fullest extent, using 2 advanced components made from high quality parts, the scatter is limited to 1 advanced component and does not have the same base range as the Dx2. That is very much a pistoleer/bh comparison though since those are SPECIFIC weapons for each class that only they can use, how can you say its null and void?
A BH can not run around the whole time just using his pistol and expecting to win most fights. Your friends that are using pistol alone are most likely also using BH knockdown, stun, dizzy, and blind, aren't they? Those are the BH's carbine skills working in conjuction with our pistol not just BH pistol alone. If you don't believe me why not go try out some novice BH missions with just BH pistol and see how easy it is.
BH's ARE the best one on one class when they use ALL their weapons. They are NOT better with the carbine than a carbineer, i NEVER said that YOU did. They are NOT better than a pistoleer with a pistol YOU did. The onlything i said was that the BH excelled at 1 thing with each of their weapons, and didn't have ANY flexibilty with that weapon outside of that role. Pistol = DAMAGE Carbine = STATES, there is no middle ground, unlike pistoleer that gets knockdowns, AoE attacks, and directed damage attacks,defensive bonuses with the pistol,and better accuracy.
Torso shot puts it all at once, the pistoleer can still do his best healthshot and his best bleed, and he can do it for LESS HAM.
Eyeshot is no different than a rifleman, TKA, swordsman, fencer, pikeman, or scout. ALL those classes do damage to an unhealable pool. But that still doesn't mean we are doing more damage at all,fanshot and stopping shot can kill in 2 hits pretty easily, eyeshot takes 5-6 on most characters, and against a character with half a brain that evens out his ham bars its not even worth the trouble of doing eyeshot.
Area shot may not work but its still a skill and i am sure its going to be fixed is it. Disarm isn't the knockdown i was talking about though i ment pistol whip which works out to 16 meters and is spammable. Bounty hunters get the knockdown with the carbine but i thought we were talking pistols here Gray, so it doesn't matter if we have a carbine knockdown since that in no way shape or form translates into more effective pistol skills does it?
Pistoleers get more accuracy bonuses when youtake into account the moving, standing, and kneeling bonuses they get. With the new patch for moving penalties this will be much more pronouced now. The speed is 1 point, give me a break not a big bonus there at all especially with the 1 second cap, i will trade 1 point of speed if it makes a whiny pistoleer happy though. The BH spends186 points to get BH pistol 4 alone, don't you think the BH deserves a little something for it, especially more than someone who spent 92? The skill point argument goes to the BH's side, every time all the time. They spent 63 in pistoleer and within those 63 they split it up between defense, speed and accuracy, and specials, its not all spent in direct damage output is it?
The BH was made for the sole purpose of 1 on 1 RANGEDcombat. Everyone else, EVERYONE has the ability to gain significant group attacks, group bonuses, and general combat skills. A pistoleer isn't JUST a pistoleer, he is also a CH, or a squad leader, or a combat medic, or a carbineer, or GASP even a bounty hunter, and everything other than bounty hunter they can take to master aswell! The carbineer was also not designed for 1 on 1 so much as being flexible with their weapon beyond all others, they get both group and single person attacks, they are almost as much group combat class as the commando. The melee proffessions are 1 on1 CQB, they destroy any ranged character in their personal space, thats kind of the draw back of melee though is that you have to be close.
The gem your talking about is very true, the Dx2 is the superior weapon when produced to its fullest extent, using 2 advanced components made from high quality parts, the scatter is limited to 1 advanced component and does not have the same base range as the Dx2. That is very much a pistoleer/bh comparison though since those are SPECIFIC weapons for each class that only they can use, how can you say its null and void?
A BH can not run around the whole time just using his pistol and expecting to win most fights. Your friends that are using pistol alone are most likely also using BH knockdown, stun, dizzy, and blind, aren't they? Those are the BH's carbine skills working in conjuction with our pistol not just BH pistol alone. If you don't believe me why not go try out some novice BH missions with just BH pistol and see how easy it is.
BH's ARE the best one on one class when they use ALL their weapons. They are NOT better with the carbine than a carbineer, i NEVER said that YOU did. They are NOT better than a pistoleer with a pistol YOU did. The onlything i said was that the BH excelled at 1 thing with each of their weapons, and didn't have ANY flexibilty with that weapon outside of that role. Pistol = DAMAGE Carbine = STATES, there is no middle ground, unlike pistoleer that gets knockdowns, AoE attacks, and directed damage attacks,defensive bonuses with the pistol,and better accuracy.
I hate chiming in on these threads as they aren't constructive in any manner.
Personally I feel that Commando should also do the most damage because of all the boxes filled from fighting. Or at least the most in certain situations for which our class was designed.
This seems to be coming with the changes to At-Sts and turrets. /cheer
Not to mention the increased damage to the rest of our weapons /roar
I believe the Bounty Hunter class also needs revamping in my opinion.
They have just as silly prerequisites that never get used.
Master Scout - ok. What's the point? Trapping line never gets used nor does the camping skills.
Master Marksman - yes Pistol and Carbine get better, but rifle gets dropped.
Investigation - whew, what a load of horse hockey grindage.
Master Bounty Hunter vs Master Carbiner/BH carbine 4 or Master Pistoleer/BH Pistol 4 - It can easily be argued to go the latter route as Master BH seems a waste of time.
BH also lacks any real defenses (worse than us actually)
As least we have enough skill points left over to make our class more versatile.
Seriously we can master Smuggler, Pistoleer, Carbiner, Rifleman, or Tka. Or mix an match. Point is we have more options than the BH.
I'm pretty happy with what seems to be coming, and the freedom of my class.
After reading all the replies I stick by what I said earlier.
One thing I believe we or people do in general is take what we have seen in other games or in books and say thats the way it should be.
We should look at every game with its own set of rules and use them and stretch them within their ownlimits. Not try to say the physics are completely wrong in this fictional enviroment.
Now, with that said I do believe there most be some grounded basis for the game enviroment but maybe the rules of this game say Bounty hunters make better Dayschool teachers then Commandos but Commands style hair like no one else buisness.
I'd be happy to continue this in a more appropriate forum Bleda (not that there is much point, you will continue to twist what both of us say)
You really need to watch the disinformation here, "ment pistol whip which works out to 16 meters and is spammable." This is simply not true - pistol has a range of SIX (6) meters - not seven, not eight and certainly not 16. With PvE melee mobs able to hit from 20m away its not even a reliable defense in PvE - if I can stay within 6m of a PvP target they are afk or dumb. (And in case you haven't been following - NO KD attacks will be "spammable" after the next patch - which kind of renders that whole line moot eh?
I'm sorry, but you and nearly every other BH are convinced that you should be as good or better with pistols and carbines, you practically scream it everytime you compare your abilities with the weapon to that of the specialist professions. When called on it, you point to how many points you spent to be a BH and scream, "see I deserve to be the best, they only spent XX points!". Chosing conveniently to ignore that BH is a GENERALIST profession. You get, at a discount - most of the speed and accuracy of the specialist professions with their weapons, you get some good specials to go with them - ones usable in a multitude of situations. You also HAVE POINTS LEFT OVER - which, if you decide your combat abilities are not sufficient, can be used to pick up skills in one of the specialist professions as well - making you at least equal to if not noticably better than a master at those professions.
Even a full master bh could pick up, medic (15), novice pistoleer(6) + 2 skill boxes in any pistoleer tree, for more speed, pistol whip, dodge, more accuracy - or god forbid they decide to be a REALLY good pistoleer and only take bounty pistol/investigation lines + medic and 42pts of pistoleer.
In the end, all characters have 250pts to spend - Why is the bounty hunter mantra of, "look how many points I spent - I should be uber" more valid than say a Master TKA/Master pistoleer? or ANY other combination of points spent? (Especially given the bounty hunter points spent on Scout - which while useful are NOT a combat profession - commandos have a FAR more valid claim that they should be the gods of combat since ALL of their pre-reqs are combat professions)
I've never denied that BHs have issues - the Investigation line needs a lot of work, I think you should get tracking or something close when rangers do. Your entire LLC line should have been scrapped and made into a heavy rifle line, in keeping with the rest of your skills. The investigation line should probably include some nifty pvp traps as well now that ranger will. But none of these issues excuse, explain or justify the constant demands to be best at 1-1 pvp. Every combat profession in the game wants to make that claim and for there to be any balance, NONE of them can be right. Want to know what should determine who wins in pvp? Tactics and Mental preparedness - once any fix for KD goes in, we might see it finally - if they don't give too many people the ability to one-shot.
BTW my appologies to the commandos, I just got carried away responding to this nonsense.I just can't take any of BHs spewing the"oh poor me" make me better and nerf the other guy. I'm done replying to this as it is obvious we disagree and that no one else really cares 