Commando Archive
Thread: IS it TRUE they are NERF'n FIRE?
maddogs wrote:
im just telling you dont post your noob thoughts here any more you have no clue what your talking about at all you havent run test in TC you have not even ben a commando sence flam came out and you have no right posting you ideals becous they have no facts behind them now leav if you respond with another one ofyour wierd no fact ideals i will make sure you never post here agen iv had enough of noobs cry nerf when i countinly work and work to get us fixed and i know many other commandos fell the same as i
"This is what I'm talking. I AM NOT BEING A TROLL. You are labeling me a troll because my viewpoints based on my months of experience AS A MASTER COMMANDO contradict your desire to stay "uber" as a commando (0/0/4/0) dabbler."
Now your just making assumptions and flagrant accusations - trolling. The whole DoT deal isn't just us for the second time. You think we got hit hard? Pistol DoT's are only doing around 50 damage per tick now. If you had bothered to back your arguments with anything other than opinion and obsolete experience people probably wouldn't be so hostile. The fact that you're attacking people defending their views with factsjust goes to prove their point - that you're trolling the board.
Fact: We have to wait 8 seconds or so between attacks using specials
Fact: Without the fire DoT we have pretty low DPS
Fact: Every other skill line is broken or innefective
Fact: The DoT is the primary balancing factor in our DPS right now
DoT's checking resists is fine and logical, the problem here is that the DoT effect seems to be even further reduced than if it were just check resists.
You're insensitive bashing of the profession and people who only have the Flame IV Tree (which is completely understandable as it's the only one that even works) is extremely irritating and unconstructive.
If you would bother to read other posts, you would know that Maddogs is testing this himself.
You should know that being forced to rely on 100 damage every 10 seconds or so is utter bull crap, and that it wont help you fight at all in PvP - or PvE. Healthshot1 does more damage for crying out loud!
"You consider a person who was a master commando for nearly 3 months a "noob"?"
Time means nothing. I've known level 65 Paladins in Everquest who've played for over 3 years that are still complete idiots and don't know how to play their class. The fact that you aren't a commando right now says alot about your understanding of contemporary and upcoming changes (which maddogs is testing first-hand on TC.)
Edit: Stupid grammar problems
Message Edited by Raptor2k1 on 02-07-2004 08:59 PM
Fact: The time in between specials is determined by the speed of your weapon. If you use an 8 second speed flamer then of course you'll wait 8 seconds. I use a faster flamer myself.
Fact: With the fire DOT, you have a low DPS against MOBs with 100% heat resists, or PCs wearing 80% heat resistant composite. As it should be.
Fact: You still have the fire DOT. Who said it went away? You just can't have MULTIPLE fire DOTs that tick away at 2-3k damage every few seconds, despite the victim wearing 80% heat resistant composite.
Fact: Everyone assumes the other lines are broken because their damage output is SUBSTANTIALLY lower when held up to compare with the overpowered, unbalanced,multi DOT flamer. No one bothered trying using an acid rifle against a 100% heat resist MOB because it didn't matter.
Now you're calling me a "troll" for responding to a person calling me a "troll". It's a circular argument. Read my very first post in this thread and tell me how that constitutes being a troll.
/yawn
Raptor2k1 wrote:
"This is what I'm talking. I AM NOT BEING A TROLL. You are labeling me a troll because my viewpoints based on my months of experience AS A MASTER COMMANDO contradict your desire to stay "uber" as a commando (0/0/4/0) dabbler."
Now your just making assumptions and flagrant accusations - trolling. The whole DoT deal isn't just us for the second time. You think we got hit hard? Pistol DoT's are only doing around 50 damage per tick now. If you had bothered to back your arguments with anything other than opinion and obsolete experience people probably wouldn't be so hostile. The fact that you're attacking people defending their views with factsjust goes to prove their point - that you're trolling the board.
Fact: We have to wait 8 seconds or so between attacks using specials
Fact: Without the fire DoT we have pretty low DPS
Fact: Every other skill line is broken or innefective
Fact: The DoT is the primary balancing factor in our DPS right now
DoT's checking resists is fine and logical, the problem here is that the DoT effect seems to be even further reduced than if it were just check resists.
You're insensitive bashing of the profession and people who only have the Flame IV Tree (which is completely understandable as it's the only one that even works) is extremely irritating and unconstructive.
If you would bother to read other posts, you would know that Maddogs is testing this himself.
You should know that being forced to rely on 100 damage every 10 seconds or so is utter bull crap, and that it wont help you fight at all in PvP - or PvE. Healthshot1 does more damage for crying out loud!
Thank you Jeren.
Finally a rational, polite, intelligent voice.
Although I respectfully disagree, andbelieve that the "balancing" of the flamethrower DOT coming in the next publish will be good for the profession, I do think if all the people flaming me would address their concerns just as you had so eloquently, then maybe a good discussion will come about that could sway both parts of this controversy.
Jeren_Sehn wrote:
DeneziB
While there are certain aspects of the flame DoT that appear to need balancing, the reason it is such a sore subject here and the reason you draw fore from the posters who monitor these boards is that the flamethrower, sans flame DoT, is a terrible weapon. It has a very high damage per shot at under 16m, but with such a large delay between shots that its dps is well under that most competing combat classes could generate.
All of this would not be such a problem, if the Commando had other weapons that kept our dps in a competitive range, but we do not. Assuming the changes on test center go live, I now calculate that my best attack on a DPS basis would be to use my 0040 pistoleer skillsto fire Fan Shot from my Launcher Pistol, rather than to use any skills I have from the Commando line (and I am also a Master Commando). That strategy also has the advantage of letting me stand at 64 meters rather than 16.
That also means that, were I a minimaxer, I would drop all of Commando except Novice (so I retain the cert for the LP).
In other words since they are "balancing" the only useful skill we have, and not fixing any of the broken things, and since they are not offering us anything new, they leave us with nothing.
Currently our other weapons are (i) the HAR, for whichg our accuracy and speed never increases beyond the Novice Commando level, (ii) the "heavy weapons" (Rocket Launchers, Heavy Particle Beam Cannons, etc) with which we have terrible accuracy, whichcost us at least several hundred credits per shot (hit or miss), which have deperately high HAM costs just to fire, which can only be fired from a kneeling position and which cannot be used atr all indoors and (iii) Grenades, with which we also have poor accuracy, which are inconvenient to use because of the small stacks, which are also expensive, and (my favorite) which have a tendency toincap us almost as often as they do the target (which in PvE typicallybenefits from higher HAMs to protect it).
In short, I would say that removingeffectively removing the DoT from the flamerthwoer is not a "balance", as a balance would leave us in a relatively equal postition to the other combat classes. Since this leaves us without a reasonable alternative other tahn to pursue skills from other combat classes, I'd say that's a nerf.
Now if they altered the DoT, but fixed the HAR, say,we might have a different story; but the devs have announced no plans to fix any of the problems with this class at present.
DeneziB wrote:
Fact: The time in between specials is determined by the speed of your weapon. If you use an 8 second speed flamer then of course you'll wait 8 seconds. I use a faster flamer myself.
Each special has a time multipler, which in the case of flamethrowers is 3. Therefore, using an avg flamethrower (speed 3.5),with flame 4 (same speed bonuses as master), you can use flame2 once every 6 seconds or so. By comparision, pistoleers and rifleman can fire a special every second. The equalizer to this has been the DOT effect of the flamethrower.
Fact: With the fire DOT, you have a low DPS against MOBs with 100% heat resists, or PCs wearing 80% heat resistant composite. As it should be.
Fire is different than bleeding. As it has been pointed out in other posts on this forum, modern day guerilla warfare against heavy armor include the use of fire agents, such as malitov cocktails, to set these vehicles ablaze, causing cabin pressure to increase and the crews to suffocate. Also, even the most heat resistant suits used by stuntman and such only provide temporary protection before the user must be extinguished or suffer heat and suffocation damage.
Fact: You still have the fire DOT. Who said it went away? You just can't have MULTIPLE fire DOTs that tick away at 2-3k damage every few seconds, despite the victim wearing 80% heat resistant composite.
This thread is about the damage per tick of the fire being reduced regardless of armor status, not DOT stacking.
Fact: Everyone assumes the other lines are broken because their damage output is SUBSTANTIALLY lower when held up to compare with the overpowered, unbalanced,multi DOT flamer. No one bothered trying using an acid rifle against a 100% heat resist MOB because it didn't matter.
As many posts and many tests have shown, our weapons are not working properly. The HAR modifiers do not stack, resulting in no increases in speed and accurcay. Grenades use an excess amount of HAM for throwing something and often cause damage to the user because their ideal range is inside their blast radius. Heavy weapons work for the most part, but cost an unreasonable amount to be used regularly and are a burden for most weaponsmiths to make. Also, I believe that the armor piercing multiplier is broken when using a rocket against something without armor. Further, a master pistoleer using alauncher pistolcan out damage a rocket launcher using master commando.
Huh? What are you talking about?
Are you saying a CSR will come here and ban me for stating an opinion (one which agrees with the upcoming publish) counter to yours?
I doubt it. If anything, you'll get banned when a CSR comes here and reads your words.
maddogs wrote:
i can say what i sed
becous of the way you act proves you are what i say you are if you wernt a noob you know that even with all 4 dots staked on a mob a tk still out dams us so dos fencers so do swords men so do riflemen and a BH with a llc i can say this becous i have masterd every singel commbat profesion besides bh (working on it ) i know the facts (if it ant a fact or you dont have proof dont say it is my modle and i try to keep by it )
now with that stated how in the world is it over powerd if its over powerd then so is all thos profesions i menchend if you say it is then thats proof you are a noob plan and simpel
i think i have given you enough warning now so if i see another one of your post not saporting the comando caus or crying nerf im sory to say but you wont be posting here agen thees bords are for constructive ppl not ppl who all they what to do is cry nerf and start fights
You really are good at making yourself look stupid.
Fact: The time in between specials is determined by the speed of your weapon. If you use an 8 second speed flamer then of course you'll wait 8 seconds. I use a faster flamer myself.
Are you serious? Do you have no clue what the timers on our specials are? The delay on commando specials is at the very least around 2.5x weapon speed. Seeing as on most servers it's very hard to get anything faster than a 3.0 flamer when speed-sliced your point is invalid and not a fact.
Fact: With the fire DOT, you have a low DPS against MOBs with 100% heat resists, or PCs wearing 80% heat resistant composite. As it should be.
It's now obvious your not reading any other posts on the topic, maddogs was testing against NPC's with no fire resistance and still doing the crap for damage.
Fact: You still have the fire DOT. Who said it went away? You just can't have MULTIPLE fire DOTs that tick away at 2-3k damage every few seconds, despite the victim wearing 80% heat resistant composite.
It went away because it's now doing 100ish damage per tick on un-resistant NPC's (according to TC experimentations)
Fact: Everyone assumes the other lines are broken because their damage output is SUBSTANTIALLY lower when held up to compare with the overpowered, unbalanced,multi DOT flamer. No one bothered trying using an acid rifle against a 100% heat resist MOB because it didn't matter.
Wrong. Grenades: Ideal Range = Within blast radius, out of ideal range they miss alot - in ideal range they miss a little less. HSW: Only two are really used, and they are all too expesnive to be worth using, not to mention all of them can be outdamage by pretty much any other elite profession. The fact that a pistoleer with an LP is more effective at taking out armored targets than a rocket launcher says something. The HAR is completely and utterly broken, as the mods don't work at all. Any claims otherwise tell me you must have been high for you 3 months of glory. And it's Still broken.
"Now you're calling me a "troll" for responding to a person calling me a "troll". It's a circular argument. Read my very first post in this thread and tell me how that constitutes being a troll.
/yawn"
"I doubt it. If anything, you'll get banned when a CSR comes here and reads your words."
Pompus jerk.
Message Edited by Raptor2k1 on 02-07-2004 09:27 PM
I'm reporting him to a moderator for giving me a death threat, and I want everyone here to be a witness just in case something happens to me.
Um, I don't see any death threats in there. All I see him doing is giving a threat. Perhaps that he's going to report you for trolling?
Heck, it even says he wouldn't mind civil PM'ing discussions over why you're being the way you are, and you see this as a threat to your life?!
You've got some serious issues to deal with.