Commando Archive
Thread: Commandos should not nor ever be a supporting class
Page 2 of 2
Kalano
Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:34 am
#14
StarNick wrote:
Don't mention nerf anything on the commandos, we been nerfed enough. Now it is time to fix and improve.
He speaks the bad word!!!!!! (a la Nightshade's "The Village")
LMAO We need to send the monster after him and kill em for the bad word.
tiberian_death
Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:15 am
#15
I like your ideas but always keep in mind that going to far with hybriding a profession always leads into something very bad and eventually nerfs. Learn from what happened to Bounty Hunter, a once top of the line class slowly got nerfed over and over because of Carbineer's, Pistoleer's, and BH's ability to stack with the three professions making a stronger class then orginally intended. Now all three professions are somewhat screwed because Devs fear adding more to one profession and inturn creating high end templates that become FOTM. Now I think it would be great if the Devs more focused on adding Elite Elite professions where you are able to focus more on aspect creating different styles of combat professions. Like they could create four new tiers that require you to be master to start learning but your only allowed to learn one tier ensuring that people can't become too powerful but more focused in one style of combat then another.
Ifisa
Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:38 am
#16
The subject of this is that Commando would still need a supporting class, I think it should be able to stand alone. Make Master Brawler a requirement. Then combine heavy support wepons and field tactics into 1 tree, and flame thrower and heavy acid rifle into 1 tree. With the 2 open trees i suggest adding a combat knife tree for melee and an assault wepon tree for ranged (the assault wepon and combat knives should have their own modifiers, so people don't just dabble to get a new wepon for another class). Also, a commando should be VERY hard to take down, add a bunch of defenses into master commando. This would make commando very powerful, but also make it more difficult to get master than other professions (taking up 3 master classes worth of skill points should make them extremely powerful).
Gaius_Kavadas
Mon Aug 23, 2004 4:23 pm
#17
i liked the idea of combining the heavy support weapons and field tactics trees into a single tree and then combining acid rifle and flamethrower into a single tree.
The two additional trees I'd pick is an assault rifle/carbine medium range type weapon and/or an automatic rifle type weapon such as the M249 SAW(Squad Automatic Weapon). It's not a crew serve machine gun, but a machine gun which is easily carryable and deployable by a single soldier.
The second tree would be melee tree in which case I'd include unarmed specials, combat knife specials, and melee ranged weapon strike specials. The butt stroke to the head(a mind specific stun attack), butt stroke to the groin(action pool attack), overhead smash(health pool attack).
Toss in a few moves for the combat knife, two or three I'd say. Then throw in some state defenses and give us more damage mitigation. Maybe a "commando toughness" type point thing would be good too.
That way not every friggin' commando would have to go TKM.
Raptor2k1
Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:52 pm
#19
I like your ideas but always keep in mind that going to far with hybriding a profession always leads into something very bad and eventually nerfs. Learn from what happened to Bounty Hunter, a once top of the line class slowly got nerfed over and over because of Carbineer's, Pistoleer's, and BH's ability to stack with the three professions making a stronger class then orginally intended. Now all three professions are somewhat screwed because Devs fear adding more to one profession and inturn creating high end templates that become FOTM. Now I think it would be great if the Devs more focused on adding Elite Elite professions where you are able to focus more on aspect creating different styles of combat professions. Like they could create four new tiers that require you to be master to start learning but your only allowed to learn one tier ensuring that people can't become too powerful but more focused in one style of combat then another.
I think part of the problem with what's happened to BH's is that the profession should have focussed purely on skills used for hunting bounties from the start, without being an elite marksman/scout profession. Ie. you would have a tree entirely for investigation, another eintirely for gadgets, another entirely for special traps for PC's/NPC's, etc.
IMO, giving them investigation and 3 weapon trees is what lead to some of the long-term problems as it caused an identitiy crisis. If overtones in dev posts I've seen are any indication, they want to head more towards makeing the BH profession specifically relate to tracking down and hunting bounties, with combat skills coming in from elsewhere.
Unlike a BH, a commando only has one role (well, not quite but moreso than BH does in its current incarnation) and that is to excel at combat. Because of this, this propsedsystem stands a much better chance of working with integration to the commando profession.
Another thing that must be considered is a BH could be nearly as effective as both pistoleers and carbineers with their own weapons. In this propsed case, commandos would have total skills roughly equating to that of any ranged master (plus a few tricks up their sleeve for being a commando); however they would never beat a respective profession at their own game in a straight-up fight (at least that's my understanding of the suggestion.)
Consequentially, there is reason enough to master an elite profession alone if you want to have a more flexible template (ie. you can pick up Master Doctor for example, which is impossible with Commando.) They're still king of their realm. However, for those who want to go the extra mile to be the best they can be at their specific weapons, and have decent skills with others, they could pick up commando.
Kelko
Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:29 pm
#20
Kalano wrote:
With 168 points used to become a Commando, i will include BH and CM in this since they also use as many points, that these proffesions should be the Main proffesion. I am not saying at all the other proffesions should be supporting class at all. Well, expect CH and SL, they are a support type of class.
I see Commandos picking up another Mastery as more of a specialization of a commando. Such as if you picked up master rifleman, the commando should have rifleman specials apply to the commando, make more rifle types or change the AR (also make it competitive) to a rifle. That commando would do more sniping and ranged attacks, ie: his specialization. I see a possible future as a possible artillery men taking out turrets.
Pick up carbineer. That commando would be better for crowd control. Be really good for base raids, both attack and defence on the outside. Now, we do needa commando carbine weapon. I see possible future of bunker babies with E-webs and other repeating blasters that have AoE.
Pick up pistolleer. That commando would be the best inside of bunkers, taking out rooms of enemies. LP would be the blasting away the enemy with high speed. I see possible future of being bunker busters, first ones in laying waste preparing the way for the rest to infiltrate.
Pick up TKA. Sinceunarmed is a prerequisite, we needed it to apply more for us. That commando would be more of the infiltrator, sneaking into the enemy buildings and camps taking out commandors and high ranking personel. I see them using specails like Neck snap, sneak up behind a guy and bam. Down they go with a limp body. Need some commando type of VK's. Maybe one that will incapacity an NPC for a given time peroid, not killing but a type of incap that doesn't cause damage. I see a possible future of being the silent ninjas, carefull killers and espionage.
For the specail weapons, they should be still the same for all commandos. Commandos are suppose to be able to adapt quickly to different situations but some commandos will be better adapted for the fact they are specialized in other pros. I see a hugh army of Commandos doing different jobs just like real soldiers in the militaries today.U.S. Marines are soldiers first, then whatever the core deciedes second. Just the same way commandos should be. Commandos first, rifleman, pistolleer, carbineer, or brawler second.
This is how i see Commandos should be. The other proffesions should enhance it, not detrack it. I am not saying the other combat proffesions should be weak, heck now. I still think rifleman should snip, carbineers should have full auto weapons, possible shotguns,i personally would see that as a cool toy, and pistollers should be duel weilding and doing trick shots to totally make an enemy unable to fight back while getting beaten to a bloody pulp. And for meele, well, i only have expereance as a unarmed brawler so i can't say to much there. Hmmm.....they should all have there bonus and specials that don't fully transfer to commando weapons or play style so they don't become second rated and the whole game is commando wars.
I say, make commandos mean something special, a badge of honor and a reward in its self when accomplished.
On a final side note.
These things could work in other ways for BH and CM. I think CM's should have a lot more healing powers to counter balance themselvesrather than Docs having all the cures. Doesn't seem right to me seeing a doc healing everyone on a battle field while a CM is there, only able to hurt. I think the Devs need to rethink that one a bit. Why not call them combat poisoners instead of medic.
I'll probably be one stared for this, but hey I never have givena damn about that star crap before so here goes.....
From a military perspective, heavy weapons have always been a "support" function (i.e. artillery). Everything you hear about this always has a "support" tag, a few examples; tank support, artillery support, air support, fire support (heavy machinegun). There is a reason why these aspects of the military are classed as support as opposed to first line offensive; they are more expensive (support and maintenance wise as well as upfront costs), time consuming, and at times slower and more cumbersome. This parallels the SWG Commando, we have heavy weapons, however they can be very expensive (weapons and consumables), the rate of fire on some of these is very slow (as opposed to some of the light weaponry in SWG), and we are limited on the number of rounds we get per weapon (consumables).
Now don't get me wrong, I agree that we should not be a support function, especially considering that all the above military supporting functions are more long range than up close, SWG Commandos on the other hand have to be within melee range to use our weapons. This makesus an oxymoron, we are a support function yet we have to stand right in the mix with the front line offensive functions. IMHO this switches us from being support to being straight up front line offense, the problem with this is our defensive capabilities lack the strength to withstand upclose warfare.
My opinion is we are a "hybrid" profession, kinda stuck between twoworlds so to speak. I think the Devs need to take all this into consideration when it comes time for our revamp. Anyway just my view on the situation.
Kalano
Tue Aug 24, 2004 11:35 am
#21
I would have to disagree with you Kelko.
For the starring, i see itnot a way to show disagreance but more of i see your ideas and was a great post. i only one star someone if i see them whining, flaming, or just being a plain ashat. but that is MHO.
SW:G is not RL, can't be. That would destroy the fun factor and well, it gets really complicated in programing, blah blah blah. We all heard the reasons and there is to many to remember and write. Commandos are the soldiers of SW:G. They are the three point consuming proffesions and should be rewarded as such.
I see the game having three lvls of pros right now. basic, main, and major. The basic is the first six. The main is the elite proffesions, and the major is the Hybrid proffesions. The hybrid pros are fully combat oriented in one for or another. Commandos and CM are the only ones that are right now not sure what they are and suppose to do in the game. They should be the ones that are the soldiers. Commandos killing and CM healing them. Bounty Hunters need a lot more orientation in bounties.
The game already has some supporting classes. CH, Smuggler, and SL, but not a single profession that can say they are the soldiers of fortune. No one can truely claim they are the elite soldier of the empire or rebelion. Right now you got TKM and Riffleman type combos that beat the living tar out off all the other proffesions.
All meele people don't hate me, but SW:G shoud be mostly blasters and lot less meele fighting. I have nothing wrong with meele, i know it is in the movies and books but right now, we are on a compition on who has the best meele mmo. I play SW:G because i like the fact it is science fantasy. I love that there are jedi running around with sabers. That is true Starwars, but make commandos something that also makes you say, hey, now that is Starwars.
I think commandos need the diversity they are required to have in there rerequisites and the ability to do some of the tough missions. Not be out damaged and out performed by someone with a stun baton.
I don't see vehicles or even artillery in thenear future of the game. possibly never. But commandos cost to much to be a support type class, especially with the time delays and the expensive consumibles. Commandos need to be brought up quite a bit so they can once again compete.
Qwezicul
Tue Aug 24, 2004 3:34 pm
#22
I heard chainguns mentioned...that would be hella cool if Commandos got a rotary-blaster or something
Some facts on the General Electric M134 Minigun:
Ammo: 7.62mm NATO
Number of Barrels: 6
Rounds per minute: 4000-6000 (adjustable)
Weight: 41.45 lbs.
Power Source: Electric
Length: 2'8"
Peak Recoil Force (est.): 270 lbs
I'd love to see a jedi pull 80% saber block on 6000 RPM >
Some facts on the General Electric M134 Minigun:
Ammo: 7.62mm NATO
Number of Barrels: 6
Rounds per minute: 4000-6000 (adjustable)
Weight: 41.45 lbs.
Power Source: Electric
Length: 2'8"
Peak Recoil Force (est.): 270 lbs
I'd love to see a jedi pull 80% saber block on 6000 RPM >
StarNick
Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:38 pm
#23
I heard chainguns mentioned...that would be hella cool if Commandos got a rotary-blaster or something
And forever be, commandos shall be dubbed the Roto-Rooter Men....
Kalano
Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:50 pm
#24
Ah yes! I've been from the versitility school of thought for a loooong time now. Especially reciently, bue to the delay of combat revamp, I've had lots of time to re-think and revise my old vision of what a commado should be...
Instead of looking at our current problems, issues, and other professions, I tried to think of a good analogy that describes where we are and where I feel we should be. Analyze that and maybe the solution could present itself...
Star Wars Galaxies: Pick-Up Game of Football (where we should be...)
Let's pretend, for a moment, all the combat professions gathered together in the SOE parking lot one night and decided to play a quick scrimmage.
Most are arguing who the captains should be...untill the two branches of Jedi show up (late from thier own competition). The decision was easy.Each Jedi shall captain each team. Knowing the best, most fair way to choose members is to take turns picking from the group. How would they pick? How should they pick?
This is not an easy question in many reguards...but to me it's clear as day!
After the coin flip, the winning Jedi thinks a moment and after some hesitation...picks the Commando. No sooner the Commando starts his proud jog up to his new team Captain, the Bounty Hunter let's out a sarcastic laugh and automatically walks to the other team Captian. The Commando and his team Captian watch confidently as the opposing teams leader waves the Bounty Hunter on. He was obviousely the second choise...and quite possibly a better pick depending on how things unfold.
The next several minutes, each team picks the profession which complements the one picked before them untill there is a good mix of ranged and mele professions. Which team wins you ask? It was close...but the Team that picked the Combat Medic prevailed even though they were vs the Squad Leaders team.
OK, now I'm sure most of you are asking yourselves, "What the hell is this dude talking about and what does this have to do with Commando being a Tank or not?!". Suprisingly..it does.
Why would Commando and Bounty Hunter be the first picked in this Post Combat Revamp Fantasy Football Fiasco? Easy! They would be the first because they have the most Versitiliy! Everyone wants the guy who can Block, Catch, Pass, Run, Tackle, and Score. If a Key Role goes down...this guy can fill that role almost as effectively. Thats what a Commando should be.
A Commando shouldn't be the best "player" at 64m. That's a Rifleman, but Commando is pretty good and if the Rifleman goes down...the Commando can fill in and reduce the sting a bit. Same with being a Tank. If your TKA falls...you have no other mele...who do you call? Who do you assume will run up and try to fill that role? The Commando! He won't be as good...but he can be good enough to save the rest of the group.
That's how I see Commando. And NO! Not "Jack of all trades Master of None". I see it as: "Master Commando- Jack of all Ranges, Master of None; Master Commando+Master Elite- Jack of all Ranges, MASTER of ONE!!!". I think Master Commando should be Secondbest at Every range.
That's what I've been talking about for so long. A Master Commando should be effective at every range. Not UBER! Master Commando with Master Elite should be the best at that range. POTENTIAL!
Limiting Commando to be a great TANK will always lean toward Commando/TKA, to be a better TANK. Everyone will expect Commandos to play a Tank role. But Commando, I feel, has not been trained to only tank...or only be ranged for that matter. Commando is trained to deal with many situations and the only possible way to acieve this effectively is versitility! Which, as of now, we have very little. Leading into this:
Star Wars Galaxies: Pick-Up Game of Football (where we are now...)
Let's pretend, for a moment, all the combat professions gathered together in the SOE parking lot one night and decided to play a quick scrimmage.
Most are arguing who the captains should be...untill the two branches of Jedi show up (late from thier own competition). The decision was easy.Each Jedi shall captain each team. Knowing the best, most fair way to choose members is to take turns picking from the group. How would they pick? How should they pick?
Think to yourself who you would pick first...and where would WE as Commandos fall within those picks. Ask yourself why...then ask yourself, "Would Commandobeing a better Tank orbeing MORE Versitleplace us closer into the number one slot"....
Slainte'
*P.S. How can we still be the BIG BOOMERS, Be Versitile, and BALANCED? Got it covered...will post some other time on that.
Message Edited by BravenIrish on 08-25-200407:08 PM
Taken from a post by BravenIrish
I couldn't say it any better nor any where near as well. Thanks BravenIrish for such a great post. Truely makes you think and is very clear in its point. I fully agree with you.
Page 2 of 2