Commando Archive

Thread: Crazy Thought About the HAR...

garvin
Fri Feb 13, 2004 4:17 pm
#14

Hmm, why not take the best of both worlds? Perhaps make a special that's designed to lower resists (maybe reduce armor level by 1? per shot, with a long cool-down) and other normal rifleish attacks that can alternatively be used at long/medium range?


Maybe something like 4 specials...2 Acid Singles and 2 Acid Sprays...Acid Singles would do Acid Damage..the Sprays would target Armor resists...


I'm totally flexible on this idea as it is only a concept kind of thing...I think the feedback so far is great...thanks everyone...the only think I would insist on is that this must be a Ranged Special attack weapon...We need something that gives us good ranged attack and doesn't make us have to rely on out-of-profession specials to use our own weapon (ummm...LP)...


The other idea I've been kicking around, btw, is something I brought up ages ago...A special for the LP that pauses the target's movement for 3 seconds to 5 seconds (random)...they can still attack, fire specials, etc, they just can't move...this would give us a bit of time to catch up with a kiter...not enough to time to make it impossible to kite us, but it would give us yet another weapon to switch to for strategy purposes...Think of it as a Shock Blast...the target is so shocked by the sight, sound and effect of the blast they lose their ability for a bit to move...It's similar to Stopping Shot, but also very different if you examine the 2 specials...


Maybe I'll start another post later on the idea of a Shocking Blast...



Garvin Lansdowne
Retired Commando Correspondent - Current Blue Glowie

Master Commando / TKM || Architect / Shipwright / Master Droidsmith

ShadowStyrkeGuild.com: A WoW Guild Website

Meshak
Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:12 pm
#15




http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=commando&message.id=43674


I dont know how to insert links, but I think my idea was about on par with yours... the armor errosion for pvp would definately have to be a during the fight errosion.. armor smiths make too much money as it is for it to be permanent
Article57
Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:44 pm
#16

i never understood why the HAR doesnt do DoT damage also. i mean it's acid, dawg!!! dat chit burns!!!






Jahaka Quom, Ahazi Mon Cal [Master Smuggler / Novice Gunfighter / Teras Kasi Novice]

Anora Borealis, Scylla Human [Novice Bounty Hunter / Novice Carbineer / Novice Ranger / Novice Sharpshooter / Novice Creature Handler]

May the Nerf be with you.
Rebarty
Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:20 am
#17

Good idea, right now my HAR is used to Tap layers and shoot gnorts

I have one that is sliced that does good dmg, but with the crack down I do not bring it out much.



Rebarty Mir-mar Old Commando- Pre-CU, Pre-NGE
Mayor, Zion city of Light
Wyenn Mirmar, Dancing Fool
Kovix
Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:32 am
#18

Good idea but put into effect we would hear more calls for nerf than ever before. People complained about wound damage that can be healed basically for free. Imagine the complaints for damage to armor that cost them an arm and a leg. Even if it was temporary damage induced by acid single1 or 2 that means we would still have to get into melee range to fireso they would still kite us. But I do have to say, its good to see ideas for HAR other than expensive firewood.

Kovix, Master Commando
LordSeckmoth
Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:36 am
#19

Just to let ya know, back for a very short while hehe


Also; I have always been for the HAR getting a special which temorarily reduced resists. The special might not have a hard punch of damage to it... but it would definetly add some strategy to the game. Think of all the people in insane Composite that are esentially gods in PvP, just because of some rare loot and great resources not everyone can afford. This would bring balance back to the force... of the Commando's HAR

shutout
Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:50 am
#20

they (the devs) can't even get our skill mods with the HAR right. did you notice that they took out the extra +30 to accuracy you get at master? it used to be split up, now its just gone. lets see if they can get something right with our profession before we have them change things around. cuz you know that we'll get this, but it won't work right. and we'll still hear the nerf cries, even though it'll be easily countered.

also, we'll be spending a lot of time using acidsingle2 on people, thus, leaving us open to attacks. if we're to use 2 specials, even if they're made as fast as the flamer, we're still vulnerable for about 14 seconds. that's 14 seconds of us doing no damage, and them pummeling us. its also making us rely on groups, and being a pure support class.

Message Edited by shutout on 02-13-2004 12:53 PM



--
Soull Halcyon: Master Sharpshooter-Teras Kasi Master

Havik Halcyon: Master Pikeman-Master Heavy Swordsman
SupaPook
Sat Feb 14, 2004 4:01 am
#21

nice idea, but wont work. Imagine the screaming from people who have suits of composite that are uber and cost them like 12 mil. We will break their precious suit and they will cancel their subscription.

MMORPGs hardly ever have ways to totally destroy quality gear, because gear is fluff, and fluff is life for a MMORPG. When people lose their favorite things, they quit.

Look at ultima, im willing to bet half the people who still play it keep it because they have a cool house or cool gear. I know i do.
Tal-N
Sat Feb 14, 2004 8:54 am
#22

If it damaged armor then it becomes a griefing weapon, there's nothing to stop a 3 players from harrasing someone. A TKA knocks them down and keeps them down, the commando wastes away their hard earned armor with the HAR while someone in the same faction who is helpping to grief continually heals the downed player so they don't die.


The HAR needs some character I agree, changing resists is probably a huge strain on the database as it alters data that was supposed to be fixed, in PvE it has the potential to lower the CL rating which is again supposed to be static. The last thing we want is another DoT weapon either and the fact is that giving the HAR any AP qualities would only be any use in PvP because in PvE where vulnerability to acid damage is extremely common. Acid can do alot, the thing to remember that the HAR is technically a device shooting pressurized liquid acid. Given that there are many possibilities:


Knockdown and Posture down effects

Pressurized liquid is always very potent when it comes to physical force, police and military have been using fire hoses around the world for years in riot control because of how effective they are at dealing with large groups and pinning them down or pushing them away. A commando is right at home as a support role to a hunting group and many of our weapons and specials are designed to deal damage to groups of enemies at once rather than focussing on induviduals so changing the HAR into our official 'crowd control' weapon makes alot of sense.


Blinding status effects

It's acid, if it gets in your eyes you can bet that it is going to cause you to have trouble seeing. Even the fumes from it can make someones eyes water so it stands to make sense that the HAR in any mode of attack wether it be normal fire or using specials has a high likelyhood of causing blinding.


Splash damage

It's liquid, it splashes around when it hits something. The commando only has grenades for AoE damage so far and they aren't working but it would be nice for the HAR to actually have a small splash damage radius for it's default non-special attack. Even if it's minor the fact is that it gives it a different flavour to the Flamethrower which is clearly focussed towards dealing damage and DoTs to induviduals at a close range. That's a true infantry weapon, the HAR should be ranged support to provide a counter balance in tactics.






Tal-N Chratk
Ahazi Master Bioengineer / Hunt Master / Rifleman
______________________
Tal'N Chratk
Shadowfire Bounterhunter / Commando

garvin
Sat Feb 14, 2004 11:28 am
#23

It won't be a griefing weapon if it's effects are temporary! The thread has already evolved the idea from decaying damage to temporarily reducing resists which will make the opponent more vuneriable to other various weapons like our FT.



Garvin Lansdowne
Retired Commando Correspondent - Current Blue Glowie

Master Commando / TKM || Architect / Shipwright / Master Droidsmith

ShadowStyrkeGuild.com: A WoW Guild Website

sfPuck
Sat Feb 14, 2004 3:14 pm
#24

I think it should instantly destroy ALL armor. Especially with acid cone 2 hitting 5 people at once.


Of course, that could be the Wookiee in me talking.








PuckUkami
Rebel Colonel
Rebel Master Pilot
Spy
Please don't shoot me for 30 seconds while I stand still to throw my smoke grenade

How do I set my autoattack to be /bug?
Tal-N
Sat Feb 14, 2004 5:06 pm
#25






It won't be a griefing weapon if it's effects are temporary! The thread has already evolved the idea from decaying damage to temporarily reducing resists which will make the opponent more vuneriable to other various weapons like our FT.



The effecting being temporary sounds to me like it's going to be especially tough to program since the results would vary from one person and mob to another. Also this would intrude onto the region of Rangers who are supposed to be the ones who do this kind of things to animal, admittedly this does not apply to NPCs however the concept of NPC traps along the same lines as what the Ranger does fits more with bountyhunters than commandos. The idea does have merit, but it's stepping on the toes of what roles other professions are supposed to do.A commando by definition is supposed to cause damage and support a group in the sense of crowdcontrol. Debuffing is the role of combat medics and rangers (possibly even bounythunters eventually since they presently have no specific role in combat)


That isn't to say this isnt a good idea, the game needs more ways to weaken the enemy and put it at a disadvantage and lowering how well protected they are is an ideal solution. It just fits the HAR into a very fixed role, one whereby if you come up against an armored enemy who is attacking you then the benefit of having all HAR boxes is useless so it seems like thats 4 boxes wasted on something that can only be really used in one situation against one type of enemy. Frankly it would work better if there was a minor drop in resists as a side effect to the normal damage and one that wouldn't stack since otherwise it allows for a TKA/Doc to hold the attention of the mob while the commando removes all ofits protection. The idea of 2 people soloing anything in the game simply isn't going to fly with SOE.


(-edit-) Also on the subject of the temporary armor decay being overpowered I seem to remember TH mentioning that in this combat pass they're ensuring there is a counter to every attack. What would possibly be the counter to this weapon? A temporary pHneutral layer placed upon the armor for PvP battles perhaps? Yeah, that would work. But if this weapon was totally focussed on decaying armor then it becomes useless, that is why I suggested that it should still deal damage but have a weakening side effect. One simple soltution to the overpowered stackingis that the weapons can decrease general protection by a total of 50% with increments of 5%-15% that would seem alot more balanced as it would be the alternate to something like Intimidation which lowers the damage output of the enemy. Alternatively it could simply have a random effect of removing a single layer of armor which would be equal to lowering resists by 50% but would be more valuable to players who don't have any AP weapons.


Message Edited by Tal-N on 02-15-2004 12:15 AM

Message Edited by Tal-N on 02-15-2004 12:15 AM



Tal-N Chratk
Ahazi Master Bioengineer / Hunt Master / Rifleman
______________________
Tal'N Chratk
Shadowfire Bounterhunter / Commando

garvin
Sat Feb 14, 2004 5:31 pm
#26


The effecting being temporary sounds to me like it's going to be especially tough to program since the results would vary from one person and mob to another. Also this would intrude onto the region of Rangers who are supposed to be the ones who do this kind of things to animal, admittedly this does not apply to NPCs however the concept of NPC traps along the same lines as what the Ranger does fits more with bountyhunters than commandos. The idea does have merit, but it's stepping on the toes of what roles other professions are supposed to do.A commando by definition is supposed to cause damage and support a group in the sense of crowdcontrol. Debuffing is the role of combat medics and rangers (possibly even bounythunters eventually since they presently have no specific role in combat)


Actually it wouldn't be all that hard to program if you examine what is already ingame...If foods can improve resists (there are new food items that improve fire resists and such) on a timer, then there can be weapons that reduce resists on a timer...it's all about shifting the programming around to be implemented in a different way...it's all already in game...


As for stepping on toes...I disagree...there are many specials across many professions that could be considered "steping on toes"...The dev's have said they are all about creating balance...there are many creatures out there with resistence to our main weapon...and there are armor and clothing items that resist as well...now there are food items that grant temporary boosts to these resists...So if there are so many ways to resist the damage of our attacks, then to balance it, there should be away for us to lower those resists...more then any other profession we deserve this type of thing...I don't see it as intruding...I see it as creating some type of balance (even though the scale would still tip in their favor)...Do Rangers or Comat Medics do heat damage? No, we do...and it's our main weapon, so we should have another way to lower the resists to use our main weapon better...It just makes sense...


A commando is not just for support and to cause damage...they are also the first line of attack that is charged with breaking down the defenses of their enemy so the rest of the soldiers can move in (that's one way we support our fellow troops)...by lowering defense resists we are doing just that...breaking down defenses and making our opponents more vunerable to attack...So we need an attack that temporarily reduces resists...




Garvin Lansdowne
Retired Commando Correspondent - Current Blue Glowie

Master Commando / TKM || Architect / Shipwright / Master Droidsmith

ShadowStyrkeGuild.com: A WoW Guild Website

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