Commando Archive
Thread: Detonation Droids...Here is what I know...
Message Edited by garvin on 04-28-2004 04:29 PM
garvin wrote:
Just remembered something I forgot to add...the Devs made sure that if the user is within the 17m blast radius of the bomb droid, the user will incur NO damage...
This is a common complaint about our grenades, that when using them, we incur damage if within the radius of the blast...
If the devs feel they can justify no damage to the bomb droid user, then Commandos should incur no damage via our own grenades.
Message Edited by garvin on 04-28-2004 04:29 PM
Personally I'd love to see self-damage removed from grenades, we're the only profession that can hurt themselves directly.
While it my not be realistic to be unaffected by the blast, the game mechanics of grenades as they stand now make targeting yourself a lot more likely. You can only target a Mob that can move, you can't target the ground say 15m away (like you would with a grenade in RL). The mechanics of thesedroid bombs actually seem to be more like grenades then our Grenades!?!
Xavien Dusk
with all this crap... the commando better be better than cake or pie after combat rebalance. If not, there will be hell to pay....
Message Edited by thepunisher286 on 04-28-2004 06:23 PM
- /detonatedroid command can be used up to 150m...NPC's will only aggro on a target when it's within 90m, so if used beyond 90m, the AI target won't aggro on you. Agree set to 90m to keep things fair
- The Droid can be set to follow target to be used as a homing missle...if the AI is not aggro'd on the target, it has not chance of preventing it's detonation. Dont really see a problem here..As long as the Target aggros after it Exploids (I think setting to 90m would solve this)
- Once used in combat, the user can use a new droid deed to call another bomb droid into combat. This could lead to a large number of bomb droids used the same combat, possibly against the same target and even with the target NPC never going aggro on the user if outside 90m Needs to be fixed so you cant deed in Combat..To keep things fair
- Bomb Droids do Blast Damage. A programmer once told me that "You are correct that blast damage is the perview of Commandos. That doesn't mean that there will never be any non-Commando weapons with Blast damage but those will be made to be specialty weapons and shouldn't intrude on the utility of Commando weapons." I feel that we have been intruded on (see the RL comparison below). Dont see the big deal with this myself it seems Logical for something that Exploids
- Bomb Droids have a blast damage radius of around 17m which is greater then our Rocket Launcher. RL Needs fixed
- Certs for these new Bomb Droids are granted at Novice Smuggler and Novice Bounty Hunter. Dont see a problem with BH Nov ( We spend alot of points) Maybe set it up farther into Smuggler Tree??
- [edit add] If the user is withinthe 17m blast radiusof the exploding bomb droid, the user incurs NO DAMAGE. This is unlike our grenades which will do the user damage if within the blast radius. Agree needs fixed...Lets face it, If your around a bomb when it goes off...You will get hit...
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Hey Garvin, another discussion on this issue I thought was interesting....
There is a discussion going on in the DE boards where people are talking about what the Bomb Droids do. Basically, people are talking about the fact that if you use a bomb droid to destroy something you get (1) no experience and (2) no loot rights. One of the posters asks, "If you don't get loot rights and xp, what the heck are these droids good for?"
Ok, so developers say that they implemented these droids to give BHs and Smugglers more of a role in the adventure areas like the Geo cave and Corvette. All of the adventure areas have new loot that you can only get in that area. Question: Why would you raid one of the adventure areas using droid bombs, if it meant that you would not get loot rights for everything the bomb destroys? You wouldn't...it would be too risky if you missed loot chances.
Ok, now the opposite side of the issue... What situations are there were you do not care about xp and loot rights (in other words...where are these droids useful)?The only ones that come to my mind are: (1) PvP, and (2) base raiding. However, using these things in pvp would be somewhat silly, because you would pay 6k credits to do less than 400 damage to the other player (because of armor and the 75% reduction). What does that leave as the only real practical purposes of the bomb droids? Destroying AT-ST's and turrets in raids.
Food for thought...
We are reading the same posts my friend...I saw that one too and I had 2 initial thoughts (which were expressed there I think already)...
- The droid bomb 1 shot killed the target...This means the user wasn't able to do any damage by himself, if he had attacked the target and done at least 1 damage to it, then blew it up, he'd have looting rights...remember, xp is also dependent on how much damage YOU actually do to your target...
- The droid bomb was not grouped with the user...if it had been grouped he probably would have had loot rights...
- A player needs to be within a certain range to get loot rights...the image shows 71m from his target, but I think loot range goes up to 84m
If these bomb droids are used in places like the Geon Cave and the Corevette, then chances are that not only will the player use a droid or 5 to blow up a target, but he or she will also be shooting at it (doing double attacks basically)...So they'll get loot rights, but less XP...
So strategy for these droids will not be to use them for XP farming or small lootable kills...but rather for high power lootable kills (targets that you will have to attack on top of blowing up)or targets that you don't care about looting...
Think about this PvE strategy...a player groups with a bomb droid, uses feign death if the target get's to close, sends droid after droid at the target to blow it up while you wait outside aggro range until it's weak enough to finish off close range...by actually doing some level of damage himself as well as being grouped with a droid that did some damage, the user should get loot rights...
I thought we got rid of this troll...
Responses in Blue:
DayWalkerRori wrote:
1. /detonatedroid command can be used up to 150m...NPC's will only aggro on a target when it's within 90m, so if used beyond 90m, the AI target won't aggro on you. Agree set to 90m to keep things fair
Yeah, totally not the point. NO class in this game can shoot outside of 65m. In fact, turrets can't shoot more than 70m. So 90m is STILL exploitable because it allows anyone to kill a turret with these bombs without the turret ever being able to shoot back. That is an exploit. It is also unbalanced because it isgreater range than the blast/demolitions experts (commandos) have. It's FUBAR, plain and simple.
2. The Droid can be set to follow target to be used as a homing missle...if the AI is not aggro'd on the target, it has not chance of preventing it's detonation. Dont really see a problem here..As long as the Target aggros after it Exploids (I think setting to 90m would solve this)
Ah, yeah...these things do 7k to 10k damage dude...can you say "one-shot kill." What good is aggro if the thing is dead? Additionally, the "homing missle" is exploitable because you can set the thing to follow, go to 90m, start the explosion countdown, and then run out of aggro range (beyond 90m)before it explodes. 90m solves nothing.
3. Once used in combat, the user can use a new droid deed to call another bomb droid into combat. This could lead to a large number of bomb droids used the same combat, possibly against the same target and even with the target NPC never going aggro on the user if outside 90m Needs to be fixed so you cant deed in Combat..To keep things fair
Do you play this game? Aggro is easy to avoid, and there is no way to make it fair. First you can use the above "issue detonate command within 90mand then run beyond 90m" to avoid aggro. No aggro = not in combat = can redeed at any time. Second, if you have a friend, all it takes to avoid aggro is for you to mash your peace button, while your friend shoots once or twice at the mob. If you have 2-3 friends with you, youwould be able totake out a every turret at a base from 90m just by having them get aggro from any mobs that run at you and lead the mobs away from you. It can't be fixed.
4. Bomb Droids do Blast Damage. A programmer once told me that "You are correct that blast damage is the perview of Commandos. That doesn't mean that there will never be any non-Commando weapons with Blast damage but those will be made to be specialty weapons and shouldn't intrude on the utility of Commando weapons." I feel that we have been intruded on (see the RL comparison below). Dont see the big deal with this myself it seems Logical for something that Exploids
If we were using logic, things that explode would be usuable by the demolitions experts, not BHs (mercanaries that hunt people) and smugglers (sneaks contraband around galaxy and tries not to draw too much attention to themselves). If we were using logic, these thing never would have been invented in the first place, because there is NO precedent for them anywhere in Star Wars or the EU.
The big deal is that allowing BH and smugglers to do HUGE amount of blast damage to turrets and AT-STs,more and from a greater range than even commandos can do,serves as a major nerf to the commando profession. The ONLY way this can be fixed is to change the damage type.
Honestly, I was thinking this weekend that stun damage might be a good compromise. Few things are stun resistant (in other words, this increases the effectiveness of the bombs), stun has no effect on turrets and lairs (perfect for their intended purposes), and it makes sense that people within the blast radius are stunned by the blast.
4. Bomb Droids have a blast damage radius of around 17m which is greater then our Rocket Launcher. RL Needs fixed
What the hell is "RL." Can we please try to speak english?
What needs to be fixed? Are you saying nerf the bombs, or make our rocket launchers better? If the former, I agree the need to be nerfed like crazy, including limiting the range to within 60m and changing the damage type to something other than blast. If it is the latter, devs will NEVER do that, and we would NEVER want that. We already have blast radius weapons (they are called grenades) and devs have limited those to close radius.Making rocket launchers blast radiuswould do nothing more than to give us 2 trees that both have blast radius weapons and do the EXACT same thing.
*sarcasm on* That's exactly what commando needs isn't it....more weapons that all do the exact same thing. *sarcasm off*
5. Certs for these new Bomb Droids are granted at Novice Smuggler and Novice Bounty Hunter. Dont see a problem with BH Nov ( We spend alot of points) Maybe set it up farther into Smuggler Tree??
We have to spend skill points on demolitionst trees (8 total skill boxes, 28 skill points) to learn how to effectively use rocket launchers and grenades (our blast weapons). Please point to the place ANYWHERE in your scout, marksman, or novice BH trees where you spend skill points on demolitions tohave expertise in demolitions. BHs can use pistols (including every pistol except DX2 and launcher)better than pistoleers, carbines (including every carbine except elite)better than carbineers, and get a BH only heavy weapon that is comparable to our flame thrower and acid rifle (minus the DOT)...why do you needmore weapons (blast weapons no less) to be effective? Wouldn't you rather devs fix your current BH appropriate abilities ratherthan giving you stupid droid bombs that have NOTHING to do with being a BH?
6. If the user is withinthe 17m blast radiusof the exploding bomb droid, the user incurs NO DAMAGE. This is unlike our grenades which will do the user damage if within the blast radius. Agree needs fixed...Lets face it, If your around a bomb when it goes off...You will get hit...
Okay....what? What needs to be fixed? Garvin said we want grenades to do NO damage to us when we throw them. You say "yeah that need to be fixed" (as in they should not do selfdamage) and then say "if a bomb goes off you will be hit" (as in they should do self damage).
You don't seem to understand the basic fundamentals of the game... For most grenades, the prime accuracy range OVERLAPS with the blast radius. That means if you want to hit something with a grenade, you have to be standing within the blast radius (and get hit). For months, commandos have been asking for grenades to do no self damage, so you can't damage yourself with them. Garvin was noting that although we have asked for this for months, BHs and Smugglers were given this gift with their droid bombs. He was saying that if devs can do this for droid bombs, it should be easy for us to get the no-self-damage rules as well.
Now you stupidly come in here and say "yeah even though we can shoot these things off from 150m and will be WAY outside the 17m blast radius when they explode, we should change them to do self damage." Nice concession genius...
Fact is, these things are the biggest slap in the commando face that this game has ever seen. Not only do these bombs do blast damage, but they also do (1) more blast damage (2) at a greater range (almost 2 1/2 times), and (3) without missing (commandos only can hit 50% of the time at master), than the the blast experts can do. They also encompass perks that commandos have been requesting for MONTHS (i.e. no self- damage). They are just plain wrong....
Message Edited by Daker-Naritus on 04-29-2004 10:54 AM
Well Im a DE but Ive been having computer issues at home after the latest update so I havent been able to link up with my Smuggler buddy to test these things out.
We cant pull droids out in combat. Its like vehicles, you also cant engage in combat for 15 secs or it will cancel the call as well. Does that allay any fears?
Squygxicus wrote:
Well Im a DE but Ive been having computer issues at home after the latest update so I havent been able to link up with my Smuggler buddy to test these things out.
We cant pull droids out in combat. Its like vehicles, you also cant engage in combat for 15 secs or it will cancel the call as well. Does that allay any fears?
Squygxicus wrote:
hmm.. interesting. BTW its 5 droids in the datapad. That does pose a problem. You'd still have to train it though, but all you'd need to do is train it to follow.
That's where the second part of the exploit comes in...a person who is 90m or more away from the target basically never aggro's the target...so they send the first bomb droid and it hurts the target or kills it...if it doesn't die, it won't attack the user, so that player uses another deed to call anothe bomb droid out, trains it to follow, and sends it off towards the non-aggro'd target again...rinse and repeat until the target is dead or weak enough for the player to attack on his own (to avoid losing loot rights)...
If the target doesn't aggro, you have plenty of time to train a new droid and attack again...
That's why I and other's push for 2 major changes:
- Reduce the /detonatedroid command range to 64m to prevent the non-aggro exploit
- Disallow calling out new droids by just deeding them during combat...instead of bringing them out, just add them to the datapad where they then need to be called out like anything else (and then you have your "not during combat" rule)...But as you know, using a deed aways pops out the droid or vehicle as well as adds it to your datapad currently...this needs to be changed.
That's where a huge amount of the issues come from...