Commando Archive
Thread: HAR broken? I think it's the flamer that is bugged really
20 bucks says he is a pistoleer, hehe. Ok, yeah I disagree with you as well. You are right flamethrowers do need a balancing pass, but they are not bugged.
Actually I'm not and I don't intent to be. I did however group with a BH/Pistoleer who was buffed up with meds and he was constantly using stopping shot every 1 second on a lair resulting in around 1000 damage every second. Not something I could keep up with and frankly I was surprized at just how fast he was churning the damage out.
As for flamers not being bugged I'll say this... why should something suffer damage from burns when they are 100% heat resistant? Surely if they are immune to heat then they shouldn't catch fire in the first place and certainly not suffer additional damage from being set on fire. If something bleeds then yes it bypasses resistances... however we're talking about a DOT created by a heat attack. That to me says it's bugged, a good bug which people like but looking at it logically it simply has to be corrected so that heat defence prevents or reduces the DOT from a flamer.
Tal-N wrote:
The HAR is a broken weapon from top to bottom. Accuracy, damage, cool down time, specials, range, lack of AP, terribleanimationsetc. Thesemake it a BROKEN weapon not just a underused weapon or misunderstood weapon.
Frankly a 'broken' weapon would be something which cannot be used and isn't even remotely combat effective. The accuracy yes is a problem, however going to within 25m and crouching means that even without theAR1 box I'm hitting around 2/3 of the time which is around the same as a novice rifleman. So on that front it's still hitting decently but it's limited to only used as a support weapon. The damage itself is actually very good, mine easily hits for around 1100 damage without specials almost each time every 3-4 seconds. Having just gotten AR1 and the first special attack (acidsingle 1)I agree the cooldown time is horrendous for the damage it causes. Massive 12 seconds of cooldown time and the damage typically is around 4000-6000 which is more or less the same that I cause over the 12 second period with normal fire.
The range is indeed a problem, since I have to be within avery close proximity to the target to even get a +0 range modifier. I'm not going to debate that issue cause I agree it's something which bothers me too. The terrible animations? if you mean the generally poor 'feel' of such a beefy looking weapon then I agree but thats really aesthetics. The fact is has no AP isn't really an issue as I see it, but thats something I'm gonna cover in a large topic I'm gonna post.
In concept we should have a powerful weapon to attack any vulnerability including vulnerability to acid.
Not true, no single weapon or line of skills within a profession should give you carte blanche coverage of all enemies. The commando as a whole does indeed give the player full access to EVERY damage type as it is. I'm gonna cover this more in detail in another topic I'm gonna start but ultimately a master commando should get an advantage over someone who dabbles. In this case a master commando can cause large amounts of damage in every type of damage in the entire game.
If however I have misunderstood you and you're saying we should have a weapon for each I'll point out that we already do in the form of grenades and disposable weapons.
If anything the HAR should be more like the FT and not the other way around.
I'm not suggesting that the FT be like the HAR, I'm saying that every weapon within commando has it's place but because burns are not reduced or defended against by heat protection then it becomes a universally damaging weapon. The way to look at it is this... the FT from looking at it's accuracy and such is a heavy version of the launcher pistol. It's designed to be an alternative commando's solo weapon. The HAR looks like it's designed to a group support weapon. Requiring you to get a decent aim in as you exploit the very common acid vulnerabilities. Once they fix the burn dot to not ignore resistances and let them fix the accuract skill mods then I think you'll start seeing the HAR becoming more viable instantly.
But anyway I'm gonna cover this in more detail for another topic cause there's no single thing I can say here which summerizes a few points I think people should be aware of.
Thank you for your input. It is honest and well thought out. However, I want to point out that I am not implying that I believe one weapon should be capable of effecting an attack against all vulnerabilities. I am simply making 2points that have been and continue to be obvious to anyone who has been a commando or master commando for more than a week.
1. Master Commandos have weapons available to them that are designed to attack all vulnerabilties and in some cases more than one to attack a single vulnerablity i.e., Hvy Acid Rifle and Hvy Acid Cannon.
2. That of these weapons the HAR is a broken weapon not in that it is completely ineffective, (I am sorry if that is the impression I left )but that the HAR is broken due to bonuses that do not stack, animations that do not work, ranges that make no sence, and the general consensus of the commando community that the weapon is not worthy of entire branch of the the commando tree to master it.
WE FINALLY HAVE ONE WEAPON THAT WORKS, LEAVE OUR FLAMETHROWER ALONE!
IF U WOULD HAVE PLAYED COMMANDO AT THE BEGINNING U WOULD KNOW WHAT WE HAVE BEEN THROUGH, FUNNY I DIDNT HERE U ALL BITCHING BACK THEN ABOUT US.
NOW GET OUT OF THE COMMANOD SITE AND STOP TROLLING!
Master Commando of Invictus
Tal-N wrote:
The mentality in this forum is quite shocking, even in the face of total logic people simply see a 'fix' like this as a nerf to make the FT weaker. The fact is that if you can't see that heat resistance should prevent or protect against being on fire/burning then your beyond hope.
Actually, one could quite easily make the argument that heat resistance shouldn't affect burns.
Heat is a type of energy. Burning is a chemical reaction. Burning emits heat, but they are not one and the same and can have remarkably different effects. Just because something is resistant to heat doesn't make it noncombustible.
Stick a piece of paper in the microwave and you will notice that despite the intense heat being applied, nothing happens. Set it on fire though and it is destroyed within seconds.
Now if you stick a piece of plastic in the microwave and it will melt. Try and set a piece of plastic on fire though... you can't.
In game terms:
Paper: Resistant to heat, vulnerable to burning
Plastic: Vulnerable to heat, resistant to burning
Rofl. Tal, you were shot down.
Jazuhl wrote:
Tal-N wrote:
The mentality in this forum is quite shocking, even in the face of total logic people simply see a 'fix' like this as a nerf to make the FT weaker. The fact is that if you can't see that heat resistance should prevent or protect against being on fire/burning then your beyond hope.
Actually, one could quite easily make the argument that heat resistance shouldn't affect burns.
Heat is a type of energy. Burning is a chemical reaction. Burning emits heat, but they are not one and the same and can have remarkably different effects. Just because something is resistant to heat doesn't make it noncombustible.
Stick a piece of paper in the microwave and you will notice that despite the intense heat being applied, nothing happens. Set it on fire though and it is destroyed within seconds.
Now if you stick a piece of plastic in the microwave and it will melt. Try and set a piece of plastic on fire though... you can't.
In game terms:
Paper: Resistant to heat, vulnerable to burning
Plastic: Vulnerable to heat, resistant to burning
tho i have not plzyed SWG in the last 4 days (becous it toltoly suckes with this decay stym)
i still look over the bordes tosee if we have got any fixes or TH has posted what hes going to do
first i want to say tal-n is not a trol he is always on the forms
but i do not agree with him and heres why (i will try to give most facts about flam throwers i can )
ok 1 FT can cover a whole foot ball filed in fire that dosn't stop burning for 3 hours
2 flamers are both anti-infatry and anti-vehiculer
3 FT do not hurt on inpact but will kill/destory/melt any thing within then 10 min
4 FT are used to take out tanks
5 FT are used to ccover a entier field of men in firey death
6 if you were ever to be hit with a FT you would try to breath and the fire would go into your lunges and claps them makeing you suffecat to death or you hould your breath (allmost inposibel) the flame would quickly burn threw all layers of your skin and kill you or if you were waring armor like the comp armor the armor would get so hot it would cook you to death even faster and more of a haribel death and after you die it still keep burning to it melted your armor into a nothing but multin lava (remaber thees are to days FT SWG should be 150X better)
7 if you were to spray a FT on a tank/atst it would not do any dameg on being sprayed but give it 1 min and you will ithere see men geting out of it or it will heat up to were it mealst wires and over heats the engen to the point it exploeds
8 spray a flame thrower on a rancor it would do no dameg but give it 1-5 secs and it will staret to boil the rancors blood and as soon as this bioling blood hits the rancors heart it would die that or it would mealt off the part of the body it was sprayedd on
so with all that sed
the only thing that sould be changed is the rang(much farther shooting ) and the dam 1-100 but has a heck of a dot/burn
tho i dont want any thing to chang at all with the flamer it is curintly the only haf decint wep we have (yes i know for a fact the HAR is broken and trashed for example i use it in a friendly duel to see how it works i use acid singel 2 on him cost me 300 ham and did 100 dam to him defintly trash lol)
and tal-n if you reply to this post i want you to point out were i am rong and give me facts (i live off facts 
)
i will even look more up on the flame thrower to night
Jazuhl, your arguement would stand if the game had seperate resistances for "burning" and "fire". Unfortunately it doesn't, therefore bothshould betreated as the same damage type - heat. And if both are treated as the same, then any heat resistances or weaknesses should be applied equally to the initial attack AND the DoT damage. By the sound of it they aren't, and the DoT is treated as a standard bleeder. Therefore the FT DoT IS bugged, and should be addressed as such.
IcarVraneth wrote:
Jazuhl, your arguement would stand if the game had seperate resistances for "burning" and "fire". Unfortunately it doesn't, therefore bothshould betreated as the same damage type - heat. And if both are treated as the same, then any heat resistances or weaknesses should be applied equally to the initial attack AND the DoT damage. By the sound of it they aren't, and the DoT is treated as a standard bleeder. Therefore the FT DoT IS bugged, and should be addressed as such.
I don't believe ANY DoTs (bleeds, burns, poisons) are affected by resistances. I see no logical reason to single the Flamethrower out. If you have 50% resistance to Energyand 0% resistance to Acid and someone shoots you with an energy weapon, you would bleed less because it's going to create a smaller wound than an acid weapon would.
I actually would like to see resistances apply to DoTs. I just don't want the Flamethrower singled out based on the faulty assertion that heat and burning are the same thing and that anyone who believes differently is "beyond hope."
Ah. I didn't know that the fire DoT wasn't the only one that resistances aren't applied to. Haven't been playing this game that long. In that case I agree with you 100%.
Stick a piece of paper in the microwave and you will notice that despite the intense heat being applied, nothing happens. Set it on fire though and it is destroyed within seconds.
Now if you stick a piece of plastic in the microwave and it will melt. Try and set a piece of plastic on fire though... you can't.
Shot down? By someone trying to use the idea of a microwave oven to prove that stuff like plastic cannot burn? Oh get real, we're talking about fire here not microwave radiation. The end result is that the molecules are excited in the material but that can be caused a multitude of ways, even friction can do that. If you wanted a better annalogy then use glass, glass cannotcatch on firebut it can bemelted by a flame, plastic contains oil compounds so in many cases it can catch alight.
Infact he's done nothing but prove my point, if something catches fire by being exposed to a flame then it cannot be resistant to heat. However it is possible for something to not catch fire whole being exposed to a flame. Therefore for a Rancor to catch fire it needs to be vulnerable to heat (but it's 100% resistant so it should not), if there was a material in existance which could burn without being destroyed by the fire then you'd have a means of an unlimited fuel source.
Fire cannot persist without a chemical reaction fueling it, so if something is resistant to heat/fire then it cannot catchablaze and therefore cannot burn. Ergo an enemies with 100% heat resistance shouldn't burn since there is no way for the chemical reaction to start from fire.
Paper: Resistant to heat, vulnerable to burning
Have you any idea how stupid that sounds?, i guess NASA got it wrong when they were trying to protect space shuttles from re-entry to the planet using those special heat resistant compound tiles, all they neededwas to head down to the stationary store and strap a few sheets of A4 paper to the underside of the shuttle. Heat is heat the release of energy due to the chemical and atomic bonds breaking down, since energy can never be destoryed (only converted) then it's turned into heat and light in many cases. For something to catch fire it needs to have heat applied to it, you'll never find something catching alight without heat being present.