Commando Archive
Thread: What we really need is defense mods!
Im my view of commando ( im a master tka master commando) We should be the highest damage dealer in the game... And say we are but they dont understand how our flamers hit,... Master riffleman For example can hit one section of the ham bar, and we all knowit the mind Pool Over and over .. Very quick death.. Commando;s can do o13000 damage but it is spread out all over the ham bar,,, So a riffleman has a 3k hp to work down and we have a round a 6k pool to work down Not perfect number but works for the expample..... Now of course most of our flame damage is diverted away via defences armour ect... The third aspect is out speed and accuracy.. We are very slow to fire our weapons and Against a riffleman Very inaccurate.......Then add our defences that we dont have verses others.. It has started a snowball effect .. With all this negetive stacking ( nerf) we have gone through..Has just killed this profession...
I can understand the fact of high damage = lower defences... No prob there but when the added
1 Spread damage to hit pool
\ 2 accuracy Lack of
3 Weapon speed Slower
4 And hit mods less
5 and lack of effective specials
Equated to a less then noob profession who can put on a great light show..
The idea of a commando is a group of highly trained soliders who can sneak in a blow the hell out of anything and get out as quickly as possible, is not in this set up...
So i can wait to see the new Combat program, to see what i can do to fix myself .. but I Will not dump the profession Sooner or later it will be made a viable pvp again.. But I still get mad when a riffleman can take a turret out faster than i can... lol
thanks for letting me rant
garvin wrote:
Mr_Wibble wrote:
This is where things get all fookled. We have such high defences, as that's supposedly our strength. Never need to get into melee range? How come our knockdown only works in melee range then (only the weaker version of this works, remember). Also, I'll give you the ideal ranges for all my pistols:
Republic blaster: 0m
Scout blaster: 19m
Tangle: 10m
Striker: 20m
FWG5: 20m
DX2: 16m
Most of them (bar the republic) have large penalties to accuracy at decent range, so that's why we need good melee defence; because that's were we have any chance of hitting anything (and some people think we should even be capped in range). I'm not saying commandos shouldn't have higher defences, just that pistoleers shouldn't really be used in a defence example
Don't get me wrong...I'm in no way saying Pistoleers are over powered....Hehe, indeed. Sometimes, I wish we were. Or at least not as broken.
When I say that Pistoleers NEVERNEED to get in Melee range, I mean that you have other ranged specials that if wanted to, you could stay outside Melee Range...You don't HAVE TO get within 16m to use ALL of your specials...Pistoleers aren't forced into Melee range...they have specials that require Melee range, but they also have specials that work beyond 16m melee range... True, we're not FORCED to get in to melee range, but that where we have chance of doing *any* damage (plus we only have 2 working specials, remember
)
If a Pistoleer was fighting a TKA, would you be more inclinced to use the Pistol KD special in Melee range, or would you kite the TKA to death?
We'd kite, but they get 45 ranged defence remember (ok, I'll admit I'm splitting hairs a bit there).
I use Pistoleers as a prime example because they have ranged specials to allow them to stay outside that 16m range (we have four that don't (and only one of them works properly/isn't redunant)), yet they also have higher Melee and Def Vs. KD/Dizzy then Commandos...The idea range of your weapons don't mean you have to stay in those ideal ranges (we do if we want to hit anything)...Commandos on the other hand MUST be in Melee 16m range to use our specials...we can't adequetely kite an opponent (the Marksman specials that work with our weapon, aim and overpowered shot, both don't do much and overpowered shot degrades our weapons faster)...
I'm also not saying that commandos *shouldn't* get ded vs kd/dizzy, or more melee defence.
When it comes to accuracy, Pistoleers have very decent levels of accuracy at most ranges....they are definitely better with accuracy and speed then Commandos...
Top 5 issues for pistoleers (IIRC) include accuracy and speed woes.
So basically I tend to use Pistoleers as an example of where we should be at or be higher when it comes to Defenses...Commandos should be higher when it comes to those Melee Range defenses then a profession that has 1) Ranged Specials and 2) No Melee Pre-req...
And just to make sure this is known...when I compare the too, I never push for a NERF or Pistoleers...I push for our melee defenses to be at their level or higher...seems to make sense to me since we have the pre-req, the restrictions and we are a Hybrid profession...
I know, I'm just very touchy when it comes to pistoleer comparisons
Even if we had our defenses slightly higher then Pistoleer, skill point cost will basically mean that a Pistoleer can still dabble their defenses higher then a Commando can dabble in other professions...
*puts commanco hat in* Ok, so what if we get the blaster rifle, which ends up as a commando rifle equivalent of BH pistols (for argument's sake). Should we then get more ranged defences than riflemen (or at least comparible)?
The issue of defence is a thorny one for pistoleers. Remember (I don't think I'm repeating myself, though I have been rewriting my comments a lot) while we get a lot of melee defences (when you include dodge), we get 7 ranged defence. Riflemen get 70 ranged defence and 40 melee defence. In the grand scheme of things, pistoleers (it seems) are the guys who have to go toe-to-toe with the melee guys, which is why we have those defences.
Bear with me on this last point.
Just as a sidenote, going to PvE for a minute (which is where I spend mst of my time) and lets say you're fighting an angler. I get it a little annoyed by shooting at it, then it gets to 15m away and starts hitting me with its ranged attack. As a commando, I could still hit it with flamesingle2 and not have to worry about it hitting me too much. As a pistoleer, I *want* it to get closer, so that it has a much harder job of hitting me. But maybe I'm just ranting now
EDIT: Just checked on the pistoleer top 5 and (emboldened by me):
Message Edited by Mr_Wibble on 05-20-2004 10:01 PM
Mr_Wibble wrote:
Even if we had our defenses slightly higher then Pistoleer, skill point cost will basically mean that a Pistoleer can still dabble their defenses higher then a Commando can dabble in other professions...
*puts commanco hat in* Ok, so what if we get the blaster rifle, which ends up as a commando rifle equivalent of BH pistols (for argument's sake). Should we then get more ranged defences than riflemen (or at least comparible)?
That opens up a whole new can of worms...if we got the Blaster Rifle and if we got Ranged specials, then the Melee Def issue wouldn't be as important (it would still be an issue) but we'd have other options...We have ok ranged def + Ranged Mitigation 3....if we had those ranged attacks, I don't think we'd need to much more in the way of ranged def (my opinion)...We could always use more, but we can survive without it...just like we'd survive better with our Melee defenses if we had decent ranged specials...but since we lack the ranged specials, we need the higher melee def...so Pistoleers are the defense design I like to use (of all the ranged professions, they have the best Melee Defenses + Def Vs. KD/Dizzy...why not model yourself after the best 
The issue of defence is a thorny one for pistoleers. Remember (I don't think I'm repeating myself, though I have been rewriting my comments a lot) while we get a lot of melee defences (when you include dodge), we get 7 ranged defence. Riflemen get 70 ranged defence and 40 melee defence. In the grand scheme of things, pistoleers (it seems) are the guys who have to go toe-to-toe with the melee guys, which is why we have those defences.
But you also have Ranged Mitigation 3 with Master Pistoleer...And you have bonus Accuracy While Moving/Standing (which of course may or may not be working properly...I know there are issues...but it's there)...Pistoleers should probably model some of their ranged defense requests on Rifleman while Commandos model their Melee Defense requests on Pistoleers...
Bear with me on this last point.
Just as a sidenote, going to PvE for a minute (which is where I spend mst of my time) and lets say you're fighting an angler. I get it a little annoyed by shooting at it, then it gets to 15m away and starts hitting me with its ranged attack. As a commando, I could still hit it with flamesingle2 and not have to worry about it hitting me too much. As a pistoleer, I *want* it to get closer, so that it has a much harder job of hitting me. But maybe I'm just ranting now
You forgot to add something "As a commando, I could still hit it witha flamesingle2 and pray it actually connects...then I have to wait around 10 seconds to do anything else...and if all goes well, not have to worry about it hitting me to much."
Commandos work very differently then other ranged professions...As illustrated by something you said above...You said that you want an opponent to get closer...but while an opponent is getting closer you can still run away if needed...you can also compete outside the 16m range...if a TKA is running towards you, you'll probably be running in the opposite direction to keep them out of range of a KD special....Commandos on the other hand tend to run towards their opponent (like a melee profession)to try and get them in that 16m range, even if they are a TKA...Running away isn't a luxurary when you need them in that 16m range...
The key issue is that a pistoleer "wants" the opponent close...A Commando "must" have the opponent close...
garvin wrote:
But you also have Ranged Mitigation 3 with Master Pistoleer...And you have bonus Accuracy While Moving/Standing (which of course may or may not be working properly...I know there are issues...but it's there)...Pistoleers should probably model some of their ranged defense requests on Rifleman while Commandos model their Melee Defense requests on Pistoleers...
We do get accuracy when moving, but we still have to be close to hit
Bear with me on this last point.
Just as a sidenote, going to PvE for a minute (which is where I spend mst of my time) and lets say you're fighting an angler. I get it a little annoyed by shooting at it, then it gets to 15m away and starts hitting me with its ranged attack. As a commando, I could still hit it with flamesingle2 and not have to worry about it hitting me too much. As a pistoleer, I *want* it to get closer, so that it has a much harder job of hitting me. But maybe I'm just ranting now
You forgot to add something "As a commando, I could still hit it witha flamesingle2 and pray it actually connects...then I have to wait around 10 seconds to do anything else...and if all goes well, not have to worry about it hitting me to much."
Well, I'm only talking from my own experience and I've found that I don't miss too often.
Commandos work very differently then other ranged professions...As illustrated by something you said above...You said that you want an opponent to get closer...but while an opponent is getting closer you can still run away if needed...you can also compete outside the 16m range...if a TKA is running towards you, you'll probably be running in the opposite direction to keep them out of range of a KD special....Commandos on the other hand tend to run towards their opponent (like a melee profession)to try and get them in that 16m range, even if they are a TKA...Running away isn't a luxurary when you need them in that 16m range...
The key issue is that a pistoleer "wants" the opponent close...A Commando "must" have the opponent close...
But we don't, in reality. We don't want to be "the melee guy, who just happens to use a gun" (one of the suggestions for out two specialised point-blank specials is for them to become a snipe shot, or something that isn't as useless).
IMO, that's the answer to the whole defences question (well, maybe not the whole answer, but something
That opens up a whole new can of worms...if we got the Blaster Rifle and if we got Ranged specials, then the Melee Def issue wouldn't be as important (it would still be an issue) but we'd have other options...We have ok ranged def + Ranged Mitigation 3....if we had those ranged attacks, I don't think we'd need to much more in the way of ranged def (my opinion)...We could always use more, but we can survive without it...just like we'd survive better with our Melee defenses if we had decent ranged specials...but since we lack the ranged specials, we need the higher melee def...so Pistoleers are the defense design I like to use (of all the ranged professions, they have the best Melee Defenses + Def Vs. KD/Dizzy...why not model yourself after the best
). Better def vs kd/dizzy (as one of the commando trees is strictly in melee range,whereas pistoleers are best at melee range, but aren't forced there ), a proper ranged alternative and melee mitigation 1 (which I think I was very much for in another thread)
garvin wrote:
Mr_Wibble wrote:
garvin wrote:
Pistoleer and Rifleman both have higher defenses then us. Pistoleer has higher Melee Defenses then us AND Rifleman can outdamage us when it comes to Damage Per Second (DPS)...Being that we have a significantly higher skill point cost then Rifleman and Pistoleers we shoud at least have higher Melee Defenses then Pistoleer and higher Def Vs. mods....
*puts pistoleer hat on* Not too sure about the higher def vs mods than pistoleers. Higher melee defence, maybe, but the def vs mods and dodge is about all we have going for us (riflemenhave much higher ranged defences and only slightly lower melee defences IIRC, though that's a matter for pistoleers). I certainly agree about getting melee mitigation 1 though.
The reason I stress higher Melee Def and Def Vs. then Pistoleers is 1) Because of our Weaknesses and 2) Because of our Pre-reqs for Commando...
We have a Melee Pre-Req...Pistoleers have a Ranged Pre-Req...Our Melee Pre-Req combined with the fact that our specials have to be used in Melee Range should equal the fact that we have more Melee Defenses then Pistoleer...
I understand that reasoning
As an example, personally it doesn't make sense to me for Pistoleers to have +50 Def Vs. KD and for us to only have +5...Pistoleers never need to get into Melee Range (where KD comes up most often) but we do...Pistoleers can kite their opponents from a range that is KD safe against Melee opponents...although KD can be done via a Ranged attack for certain professions, it's used most by TKA's...And since we spend a lot of time in the 16m range for a TKA attack, we should have higher Def Vs. KD then Pistoleers...It should be a perk of our Unarmed Pre-Req as well as our higher Skill point cost...
Skeptic666 wrote:
ya the main reason for them taking our Dots was the no water thing they said. now they have blankets Give us our dots back. But so no one whines I think the DOtsshoudl do more at higher levels. Like At master it should be the way it was with a new special like Consintrated Flame Single or something. That way we won hear that just any shock trooper can have it
I like that idea skeptic... It would definitely give more meaning to master as well. Also, I would like to put more emphasis on the accuracy point than the melee defenses. I understand the issues with the melee situation and that it really needs to be taken care of, but when you miss and have to wait 8 seconds, at master, to even try to defend yourself a little bit, then there is something terribly wrong.
Skeptic666 wrote:
ya the main reason for them taking our Dots was the no water thing they said. now they have blankets Give us our dots back. But so no one whines I think the DOtsshoudl do more at higher levels. Like At master it should be the way it was with a new special like Consintrated Flame Single or something. That way we won hear that just any shock trooper can have it
I like that idea skeptic... It would definitely give more meaning to master as well. Also, I would like to put more emphasis on the accuracy point than the melee defenses. I understand the issues with the melee situation and that it really needs to be taken care of, but when you miss and have to wait 8 seconds, at master, to even try to defend yourself a little bit, then there is something terribly wrong.