Commando Archive
Thread: What possible role can commandos have in SWG without upsetting balance??
Binstubbs
Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:24 pm
#14
StarNick wrote:
Just a small comment on my part:
Battlefields should help all professions further define their roles, but it shouldn't be "the defining" role for any one profession. SL and Commando with its AoE capabilities should shine in large scale PvP, but it cannot be limited to it (the game is bigger than just battlefields)
Not that you are wrong, just that I have to wonder...How am I going to be not only the most powerful offensive profession, but dish out that damage in an AoE manner without throwing balance to the wayside?
Has there been any talk internally on how this plans to be done StarNick? You holdin out on us?? Lol
All I am proposing is that we consider not thinking of the profession in terms of other professions anymore. Just as a doc doesnt take into account the impact he has in a group in termsof his combat skills, butmaintains a CL80 with a combat class because he can do damage in his combat class but excels in the healing system. I think a system should be in place for Commandos (and SLs) to excel in without unbalancing the game, a meaningful and yet wholly distinct battlefield system seemed the most logical way to achieve that.
Message Edited by Binstubbs on 06-01-2005 10:30 PM
MsNiL
Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:47 am
#15
Binstubbs wrote:
After two years of neglect there is a way that commandos can shine in SWG in a viable way that will be fun for the commando player
Nukes. 
StarNick
Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:16 pm
#16
If I got wind of internal talks about commando, I wouldn't be feeling the despair of frustration trying to get feedback on community issues/ideas/etc.
Anyways, we're already unique...its not a good idea making us too unique so to speak. I doubt many of us will like the idea that we'll realize our fullest potential in not regular PvP...not PvE...but in a battlefield enviroment - a small (well atm nonexistent) component to the game.
That would add even more headaches than already. The devs have enough of those trying to balance both PvE and PvP and inter-profession balances, without a third level playing field.
Also, what the community wants more is variety with our weapons. To have Area damage that function like now, enhancing other professions and dishing out a good healthy damage (and then spreading it to splash, unlike atm). As well as the addition of singular heavy damage weapons or offensive specials. The solution is two fold, where we're a unique hybrid that can dole out damage - and remain balanced at the same time. Limiting us to just AoE is bad, maybe even limiting us to just high damage too (more chance for abuse, among other issues I have yet thought about). A balance between the two is I think we need...
After all...I am a Libra
Anyways, we're already unique...its not a good idea making us too unique so to speak. I doubt many of us will like the idea that we'll realize our fullest potential in not regular PvP...not PvE...but in a battlefield enviroment - a small (well atm nonexistent) component to the game.
That would add even more headaches than already. The devs have enough of those trying to balance both PvE and PvP and inter-profession balances, without a third level playing field.
Also, what the community wants more is variety with our weapons. To have Area damage that function like now, enhancing other professions and dishing out a good healthy damage (and then spreading it to splash, unlike atm). As well as the addition of singular heavy damage weapons or offensive specials. The solution is two fold, where we're a unique hybrid that can dole out damage - and remain balanced at the same time. Limiting us to just AoE is bad, maybe even limiting us to just high damage too (more chance for abuse, among other issues I have yet thought about). A balance between the two is I think we need...
After all...I am a Libra
VitoGenovese
Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:22 pm
#17
StarNick wrote:
*EDIT*KERSNIP*EDIT*
After all...I am a Libra
Gosh! Those are about my favorite animal in the whole wide world! They are totally sweet, I drew one in my notebook! Pedro offers you his protection.
Message Edited by VitoGenovese on 06-03-2005 07:23 PM
Binstubbs
Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:48 am
#18
StarNick wrote:
Also, what the community wants more is variety with our weapons. To have Area damage that function like now, enhancing other professions and dishing out a good healthy damage (and then spreading it to splash, unlike atm). As well as the addition of singular heavy damage weapons or offensive specials. The solution is two fold, where we're a unique hybrid that can dole out damage - and remain balanced at the same time. Limiting us to just AoE is bad, maybe even limiting us to just high damage too (more chance for abuse, among other issues I have yet thought about). A balance between the two is I think we need...
After all...I am a Libra
I am in total agreeance, but I must say, I simply do not see how it is possible for us to be balanced and get what a Commando should get. I think the utter lack of attention given to us and our profession specific problems is a testament to this dilemma within SOE and they do not have anything drawn up to resolve it.
They've got more important things to worry about, if you know what (or who) I mean.
PyscoJuggalo
Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:49 pm
#19
StarNick wrote:
Yeah, and this...this entire mess, was a prediction that both Garvin and Lordseckmoth saw when we first saw the CU documents.
We were told by the devs, that we would see our weapons power-up specials to live up to our role.
Instead, we got a balanced (when AoE is working 100%, and even then we were suppoused to have "limited" AoE...so that statement that we have the most powerful AoE was untrue as ive never gotten any feedback that we would see 100% AoE) AoE profession. By ourselves, commandos do just about (or a tiny bit better) AoE than other profession's AoE specials.
However, mix us with other elites and our balance goes to the boids.
We were assured this wouldn't happen, however it has. Now we're stuck with an AoE profession that can only live up to its singular role if we take up a Damage dealer profession (or at least one of a 3 or 4 quality) + commando...
We only live up to a 5 offense against 5 targets...but guess what? So does a carbineer or pistoleer with full auto single and fanshot...
Thats why we need variety.
WRONG!!!!! You know you should'nt lie like that!!!!!!!!!!!!
A Pistoleer/Carbineer combo can fire their AOE more times and is 100% more effective for being able to do so
I know because when I saw this with myWanderhome Master BH/Carbineer/0-4-0-4 Pistoleer out doing my Starsider Rifleman/Commando/4-0-4-0 Smuggler, I switched to Master Rifleman/Carbineer/Marksmen/3-4-0-4 Pistoleer.
So basically Commando is a low 4 AOE offence of high 3
Message Edited by PyscoJuggalo on 06-04-2005 04:50 PM
StarNick
Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:07 pm
#20
Lol, im speaking with bugs aside and our AoE @ 100% AoE using marksman attacks.
When I use my fanshot/full auto single (im MC/MC/0404 Pistoleer), I get around 800-1000 dmg. Give or take a hundred, rough estimate.
However, thats around the damage we do with marksman specials with our own weapons. Meanwhile with improved legshot I can do around 1700 with my elite carbine and my PFT. If we were working fully, we would be just about on par with how other AoE specials work. But we only realize our damage capabilities when going beyond our profession. And even then, its not against a single target...making us useless in dungeons (gets groups killed) and against high end bosses (why take a commando when you can get a rifleman?)
Granted this is when things work (riflemen/swordsmen do have their own problems with damage too). Right now we're not even close...
And yes I know that was a joke
, but it hit me when I was making that Fan Fest response post that we are balanced - but in the wrong possible manner. Its just that we have bugs that are breaking us from that balance. We need to persuade the developers to balance us differently, so we can achieve our original intended role. In the current span of things, we can never achieve our role with the current layout of utilities/innate abilities within our weapons. Either adding more variety (or as tac's been pushing...some sort of consumable...which is really, any weapon thats NOT AoE, but is damaging like a rifleman should be).
When I use my fanshot/full auto single (im MC/MC/0404 Pistoleer), I get around 800-1000 dmg. Give or take a hundred, rough estimate.
However, thats around the damage we do with marksman specials with our own weapons. Meanwhile with improved legshot I can do around 1700 with my elite carbine and my PFT. If we were working fully, we would be just about on par with how other AoE specials work. But we only realize our damage capabilities when going beyond our profession. And even then, its not against a single target...making us useless in dungeons (gets groups killed) and against high end bosses (why take a commando when you can get a rifleman?)
Granted this is when things work (riflemen/swordsmen do have their own problems with damage too). Right now we're not even close...
And yes I know that was a joke
, but it hit me when I was making that Fan Fest response post that we are balanced - but in the wrong possible manner. Its just that we have bugs that are breaking us from that balance. We need to persuade the developers to balance us differently, so we can achieve our original intended role. In the current span of things, we can never achieve our role with the current layout of utilities/innate abilities within our weapons. Either adding more variety (or as tac's been pushing...some sort of consumable...which is really, any weapon thats NOT AoE, but is damaging like a rifleman should be).Message Edited by StarNick on 06-04-2005 05:09 PM
PyscoJuggalo
Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:25 pm
#21
I agree completely Stern (Don't know which you perfer Stern, Star, or Nick), just throwing my support and trying to cheer people up a little.
PyscoJuggalo
Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:47 pm
#23
StarNick wrote:
Anything...but StarNick
Starnick's ok...
It's too long you need a 1 sylable (sp) name
StarNick
Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:16 pm
#24
Well my old Infantry Online guild used to call me Star/Starn...
Reportedly, the latter is where I got Stern from
Reportedly, the latter is where I got Stern from
craftr
Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:02 pm
#25
whatever happened to Rifelmen being snipers? I thought that was the original poost cu goal for rifles. So for balance with comando I saw it like this...
Group of 10 npc's, versus one rifleman. Rifleman conceals, and proceds to one shot kill each npc at a rate of one shot per 3 seconds, so all enemies are down in 30 seconds. Same group of 10 npc's versus a comando. Comando sets up his heavy weapon(15 secs)Fires of one shot with a rocket Launcher, hits 5 npc's, kills all of em with the AOE, reloads, and 15 seconds later, fires of a second shot, hitting the other 5 and killing them. So just like the rifelman, 10 dead in 30 secoonds.
So as you can guess im terible with coming up with anaolgies/examples like that, but my point is that neither Comando, Nor Rifelman should outdamage the other, nor should one do more damage then the other, they should both do the exact same Damage over Time, the difrence should lie in how that damage is achevied. Rifelman by careful target selection and sniping...Comando by blowing sh!t up.
Group of 10 npc's, versus one rifleman. Rifleman conceals, and proceds to one shot kill each npc at a rate of one shot per 3 seconds, so all enemies are down in 30 seconds. Same group of 10 npc's versus a comando. Comando sets up his heavy weapon(15 secs)Fires of one shot with a rocket Launcher, hits 5 npc's, kills all of em with the AOE, reloads, and 15 seconds later, fires of a second shot, hitting the other 5 and killing them. So just like the rifelman, 10 dead in 30 secoonds.
So as you can guess im terible with coming up with anaolgies/examples like that, but my point is that neither Comando, Nor Rifelman should outdamage the other, nor should one do more damage then the other, they should both do the exact same Damage over Time, the difrence should lie in how that damage is achevied. Rifelman by careful target selection and sniping...Comando by blowing sh!t up.
TK-132
Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:12 pm
#26
Actually I think I may have balanced or at least come up with a good rough draft of what Commando should be.
Clicky
Problem is as fun as a Blowing up a squad of enemy troops would be it won't happen. Even if a Commando could tak out half a squad of folks in one hit by the time they could do so again you would be dead. This game focuses on fighting one on one battles. It is very hard to fight multiple enemies, even Consider Grays when there are enough of them. Instead Commandos need to own their own hit hard and be a useful addition to any template with our Specials which should not be in our weapons, otherwise we make everyone who wants Commando to be a part of them use our weapons.
I'm sure, well I think, Battlefields will come back someday. I've already extensively gone on as to how they should act, and I would actually like them out of the normal game planet areas and more like Instanced Adventure Zones, because the last one I entered was basically instanced. Every Fighter should be useful on a Battlefield not just a few professions. Rifleman will snipe enemies. Carbineers will and stop enemy movements. Pistoleers will too as they get closer. Commandos will bring the hurts on stuff, and could lob a Grenade here and there. BHs can jump in front of everyone and seemingly survive what others cannot as they dodge and block incoming fire. Melee folk can wait in the trenches and smack enemies to death when they come in our act as vital guards inside important buildings were space is limited. Everyone will be useful somewhere. Of course this is more of Dream until something is done about Jedi since they are the backbone of the war now. Jedi are like Tanks. Powerful. Whoever has more probably is gonna win unless the soldiers (Normal Folk) can figure away to kill em. But since there are so many Tanks that they outnumber infantry often what are you going to do?
Clicky
Problem is as fun as a Blowing up a squad of enemy troops would be it won't happen. Even if a Commando could tak out half a squad of folks in one hit by the time they could do so again you would be dead. This game focuses on fighting one on one battles. It is very hard to fight multiple enemies, even Consider Grays when there are enough of them. Instead Commandos need to own their own hit hard and be a useful addition to any template with our Specials which should not be in our weapons, otherwise we make everyone who wants Commando to be a part of them use our weapons.
I'm sure, well I think, Battlefields will come back someday. I've already extensively gone on as to how they should act, and I would actually like them out of the normal game planet areas and more like Instanced Adventure Zones, because the last one I entered was basically instanced. Every Fighter should be useful on a Battlefield not just a few professions. Rifleman will snipe enemies. Carbineers will and stop enemy movements. Pistoleers will too as they get closer. Commandos will bring the hurts on stuff, and could lob a Grenade here and there. BHs can jump in front of everyone and seemingly survive what others cannot as they dodge and block incoming fire. Melee folk can wait in the trenches and smack enemies to death when they come in our act as vital guards inside important buildings were space is limited. Everyone will be useful somewhere. Of course this is more of Dream until something is done about Jedi since they are the backbone of the war now. Jedi are like Tanks. Powerful. Whoever has more probably is gonna win unless the soldiers (Normal Folk) can figure away to kill em. But since there are so many Tanks that they outnumber infantry often what are you going to do?