Commando Archive
Thread: Holocron Step on inside and have a chat about Commandos
3 cheers for aboloshing the Revenge TEF.
An honest question, because I believe that commando's need to be deadly, and am against a nerf.-
-Would you be upset if the health wound portion of the flamethrower was removed in PVP?
I(in a group of about 8-12)fought against 2 very, very formidable commando's(and their group of about 5)on friday night for about 2 hours. They were systimatically killing us, and although that is fine, us killing them would give them around 20 (maybe) wounds. Where as them killing us would give around 200-300+ wounds (and yes I was cloned).
Is this too unreasonable? Maybe a reduction of the wounds? 1 shot kills arent the problem, but 1 shot kills with significant downtime afterwards are.
Hey I'm happy with the 50k HP lairs! Just means more mobs pop out when I take it out. Honestly do you really think they want people destroying the spawn without the mobs stopping you? That was an obvious exploit and I wouldn't have done it. Prefer Tortur's on Talus (can 1 hit kill all but the bulls with flamesingle2, and those just take 2, great exp easy to do and better then laviasqualls, we can tank them!) Like I said its exploiting the power and if to much of that happens then they will do far worse then raise lair HP. Like nerfing our PvE damage.
Other then that I agree wholeheartedly.
You know all I am totally behind the class in most things, but my primary is a Combat Medic and guess what, I hate disease, it's just a grief toy. Wounds are the worst, I can kill 20 people with mind poison without complaint but if I use disease once they will be on the boards shouting NERF CM...
Let go of the wounds and a lot of this noise will pass.
-z
Good points, lets hope holo reads this.
Personally, PVE is still challenging, you can still be incapped by a PVE AT ST fast, so whatever fixes you do to PVP please do not just bundle them over to PVE, its not the same game style imho.
The timer between weapons is a key weakness ( rightly so) of Commando's, good tactics with friends keeping attacking NPC's off you while you recylce the moves is a major fun part of the PVE game, please Holo don't lump every possible future 'fix' into PVP and affect how we play in PVE.
Commandos are fun now, there will always be some class that has 'supposed better damage' , we are just more visible than the rest.The Dot in Pvp is insane though 
They should worry about fixing all the other classes then worry about balancing.
The list of class problems is huge as we know for all classes, make sure everything is working before you start swinging the nerf saber.
This was my reply to that thread...
This has probably been posted in the preceeding 7 pages, but in case it hasn't....
I totally disagree with the commando position. Well, I mostly disagree with it....
-Primary complaint is underpinned by the fact that the FT is seen as melee and gets very nice bonuses to some classes and stances. 2.5x dmg on a big dmg weapon means instant death. Change that and the whole problem is resolved.
-PPL do NOT understand the weapons and how to defend against them. You cannot fire a FT special outside of 16m. Where I've seen the FT used extensively is in the cities, with big lagfests, where everyone is running around like crazy chickens. Then the FT shines....close action, disorganized foes that allow commandos inside 16m. Smart players will not be flamed by a commando.... I can not count how many times I've had rifleman with T21's stand and allow me to run up tothem...firing on me even at PB range! That's not smart PvP.
-BH's still rule PvP. Inside 16m we have the advantage, but otherwise it's a BH game. We don't have anything at any range besides charged weapons and the BH's hold all the cards at range. Rifleman follow closely behind having range and unhealable dmg.
-PvP is becoming more niche combat. That's they way it's supposed to be!!! Rifleman at 60m, BH's almost anywhere, and commandos at melee distance. Knowing your opponent and being READY for battle (armor resisting what you'll be facing, buffs, knowing to run in the water when on fire) is what tips the balance.
The original poster complained about the wounds, but obviously has never been diseased or mind poisoned. CM's can remove your HAM bars disturbingly quick. FT cause a burn that is put out INSTANTLY when you run in the water....no other DOT is removed instantly by any player. Again, knowledge is power.
-This is about a learning curve with a "new" class. PvP ppl haven't faced useful commandos prior to that big patch. You're right Holo....we definitely don't want an unfair advantage....but recollect all the angst that players put up against the rifleman when the T21 became more available and un-nerfed. That's died down b/c players learned to adjust tactics when they knew a T21 was around. Same will be true of this problem (after the heavy weps as melee is fixed).
-Don't nerf the class back to unuseful until some equilibrium as been established. We suffered very long without a useful set of weapons. Make a couple key changes (heavy weps as melee) and let players figure out how to play against commandos. In a month if we still rule (we don't rule now...see above) then make a change. Otherwise it's a reactionary nerf against a class now fufilling its rule as powerful dmg dealer at close range.
hear hear Iv. Agree with everything you said. Please post this thread on the Discussion board, with nothing more than an invitation. That way we can keep the rants and raves down to a minimum. Also, a PM might be helpful in this limited case.
Heck, I think that all of the combat correspondents should have a forum with the Devs. All of them together in a summit, so to speak, for balancing purposes. If any further balancing occurs, they need to balance EVERY ONE of the combat professions. Not just the nerf, rinse, repeat, that has been happening.
very good points. My observations...
1. COMMANDOS KILLING AT-STs.
My Commando killed one last night. That is with 60% overall quality Composite (don't ask - don't want to to flood the person) 50% MK3 shields at full power, three Faction pets which I sent in first, healing ourselves and my friend is Master Pistoleer helping.
Considering all the faction pets died, I lost my MK3 shield, my friend and I got incapped (we were also both healing each other with high quality stims packs to keep us going) and the AT-ST was walking up to me to killing blow me when it died from the flame DOT, I think the ratio to risk factor is acceptable.
Also consider I am using the best player made armor made on my server at the moment -- 380k cost + MK3 shield 5K + my three trooper pets of 1250 FP and I almost died, I think this is reasonable considering the time, money and effort I have put into my character.
Let me put this another way... if this is not enough time and resources for me to spend as a player to kill an AT-ST then what is?! I don't think that ANY player should be allowed to get a pet that takes a small army to take down. It creates issues when you have a group with 3-4 AT-STs in it...
Now, I have heard of other reports of Commando's killing AT-ST's with lesser quality items by bum rushing the AT-ST, using the flame DOT, dieing and then repeating the process over and over until the AT-ST dies.
This can easily be solved by re-implementing insurance costs so your items do not remain on your person when you die if they are not insured. No Commando is going to be running up naked within aggro range of an AT-ST alone to get his items...
If the DOT effect is too overpowering for AT-ST's, then fix the other issues with Commando weapons such as our rocket launchers and other heavy weapons.
PVP
1. Experienced players are using spices, doctor buffs, GOOD armor, shield and know their tactics.
If you are fighting players who are using all or some of the above and you are not using any -- you will have a MUCH harder time in PVP.
2. Less than 16m = I HURT you.
Greater than 16m....(There are other tactical skills to use, but I don't feel the need to educate everyone in PVP. If you don't know your class, better for me)
Bounty Hunter == ow. Eyeshot, knockdown, eyeshot, eyeshot (my mind pool is my lowest stat -- especially with composite armor and there are no Doctor Buffs for the mind. There are spices, but they are a real pain when the downer occurrs in the middle of the fight...)
Rifleman == ow. Mindshot 1 or 2 and then headshot. Down I go...
Combat Medic == I have never personally fought one. I have heard there is a known bug where they can hit you with their ranged disease DOT from within a building or around corners. Don't know if this has been fixed.
From what I have heard though, Disease wounds suck and suck bad. Unlike Commando fire DOT, which can be removed by the player on their own (figure it out..it is fire...), disease requries a Doctor nearby. Don't know the range on their DOTs, I would probably kill him if he got too close, but I gather he would really do a number on me with disease also...
Pistoleer == Range is gonna get me here too. Bleeds, stopping shot, etc.
Etc..etc..etc...
In short, people need to learn how to play there classes. I get the impression SOE is listening to the 70% of the player base that are inexperienced MMORPG players and making a quick judgement.
Lor Raiku
Commando -- from beta and beyond....
Ivoni, awesome post!
/clap /clap /clap
*hopes the devs/holo actually read this*
Dear Holocron (should you by any chance ever read this, that is),
i started this game 2 weeks after launch, and i became commando 4 weeks after launch. I mastered this profession, tried out every weapon available for it and worked in teams with masters of all the other combat professions. I compared PvP and PvE effectiveness of all classes and finally came to the following conclusion:
- due to the lack of proper tanking ability of melee clases, no big Mob can be soloed withoout a CH (which is absoloutely fair)
- most of the big mobs (Kimogilas, Krayt Dragons, Gorax...) can only be taken down by a well rounded group of people, whereas at least one high level CH is a must have
- in PvP speed and special moves are in fact more important than raw damage. A commando may in certain cases be able to kill a player with one shot, but a well established combat group can take out an equal number of opponenst in less than 5 seconds, no matter what
- in PvE Commandos using heavy weaponry are a great asset to every hunting group, but the commando in itself is not able to solo high level mobs. Even a Mountain squill can kill me with ease, if (and that happens often ) i miss my first shot.
- the leading role of commandos in PvP atm come from total disorganization and zero tactics. In a standrad PvP fight, everyone is running around aimlessly, disregardiong everything around him, chasing his target. It is this bloodlust, that prepares the battlefield for commandos.
- In a coordinated battlefield,, commandos have to take a huge step back. If i leave the safety of numbers, to close in on a victim, get ripped apart by riflemen in under 4 seconds (and i wear top-sliced Krayt-composite)
- aside from the DoT effect of the flamethrower, the weaponry at disposal of the BH is superior to that of the commando. They rule in range and they get even in close.
- the raw crowd contrlo abilities of Carbineer and Rifleman make a commando look pityfull. It is these abilities that provide the perfect counter to commandos and Bountyhunters
- The revenge TEF severely unbalances all professions to each other (read: get rid of it, without recommedation)
Conclusion:
- In PvE against high level Creatures/Dungeons teamwork and cross-professions are the key to victory. Only well organized groups have the chance to survive those.
- in PvP the game finally reached a level, where strategy and tactics have become nescessary to achieve victory
- fix and buff up melee professions to be able to serve as tank to further take away pressure from the CH and give CHs the ability to once again control more and more powerfull creatures. Imperials are allowed to have 375 lvls of creatures out (actualy even more), whereas a master CH may only have 70 at his disposal.
It is clear, that nerfing is not the right way to achive balance. All that is achieved by nerfing is frustrated players.
Dogg
Meiron wrote:
Stop all the lies and distortions to avoid a Flamethrower nerf. I have Flamethrower 4 myself, I know perfectly well how it works.Right now it's equally effective, nay, MORE effective in PvP vs. people who have buffs/armor on. The incredible wounds from burn dots means it's better for the Commando if his victim lives LONGER without incaps,so the dotcan run its course. As a Commando ILAUGH whenI run into people who are armored, that way I can give them full black health bars. In fact, on a victim with spices/buffs,the Flamethrower specialswill do so many wounds that it will send the guy into NEGATIVE permanent health once the buffs wear off, making it so he gets stuck incapped FOREVER until a CSR comes and assists him. I know this, I've done it myself. It didn't make me feel heroic or uber, but I'm sure there will be other Commandos who'll enjoy abusing this and their fellow players.
***** And this is different somehow from BH torsoshot, or CM poison/disease? What makes commando so different than either of my two examples with regards to wounds?
In PvE, the Flamethrower is one of the few weapons that can dish out such effective damage on mobs that are 100% resistant to its base damage type, it really means NOTHING if you hit for 0 real damage with the special, the stackable dots will work way faster and do way more damage than any bleed, on mobs like Krayts it completely bypasses any armor and resists, and only HAM delays the inevitable.
***** You do realize that ALL bleeds and DOTS work this way? Why is flamethrower an exception? Ever see how much damage mindshot 2 can do with a good t21?
Right now this profession does incredible damage far beyond any other class's capable of in both PvP and PvE, REGARDLESS of armor or heat resists, because of the behavior of dots.
***** Nope, All weapon professions can lay on nasty dots.
Holocron, please listen to this reasonable Commando, like you said, I'm one of those who don't want us to be gods, I want us to be balanced and fun. My fear is that you'll nerf us too harshly, and to avoid that, I would like to suggest some more reasonable changes.
***** You're not being reasonable. While I can see making some concessions to making PVP more fun for the general populace (reducing dmg of FT specials, but also reduce delay), appeasmentto the nerfcrying masses is an injustice to the commando class. Commandos are far from gods on the battlefield. I suggest you go look at BH's.....
1. ALL dots, burn and bleed alike, do their dot damage based on the ACTUAL damage taken from that hit, after armor/resists are factored. For example versus a Krayt, you hit for 200 on a 5000 damage base special, the target should only burn for 100 a tick instead of 2500 a tick, this would make Krayts non-trivial to solo, and would give armor some meaning in PvP going up against a Flamethrower.
***** Again, this isn't a problem of the FT, why use this as a bullet point for your argument.
2. Quarter the burn dot's wounding effects in PvP, it only exists to grief people and make us unpopular, it has no real use in PvE.
***** Why is it griefing to wound people in PVP? Right now, there's very little consequence to PVP. At least wounds and battle fatigue make it so you can't endlessly clone war someone before a breaking point is reached.
3. Change Heavy Weapons to be considered non-melee, so we don't get the ludicrous 2.5x damage bonus versus Riflemen and get those ~20k damage single hits in PvE that you see people post screenshots of.
**** This is kind of a "no-duh" comment. It's a bug. It will be fixed.