Commando Archive

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StarNick wrote:
There is a difference however...a major difference!

What template are you in? I can outdamage riflemen all the time, because of both my enhanced PFT and my carbineer damage specials. Can a normal commando outdamage or come close to a normal rifleman? Can a melee-commando? Most likely, nope...if both were going for pure damage.

Its weird, but the case Im making wouldn't really affect those of us who are in a ranged template, but would affect those who are in tacwraith's shoes...where his damage special is right now ranged shot. We are damage dealers because of the template we chose, not because of the main profession we're in.

I say this because I have seen with my unenhanced PFT's I can hit for around 1200-1300 dmg with overcharge shot. With my elite carbine, I can hit for the same using fanshot/full auto single. I don't think this is coincidental. Now the major problem here, is that this is our ENTIRE profession. Carbineer can do that damage, and then 1600-1700 damage using improved legshot - we can't.

Now, the counter arguement to this would be...well we can do damage to all the targets, and combine it with other specials. Thats only part of our flexibility, with stacking in our template. What about the flexibility we should have within our profession? Carbineer sure has it, and their secondary role is that of being a medium ranged area damage specialist. They don't have to dabble out for the 1600-1700 damage, and still can do the damage we do!

The major point here, is that we need something that will allow commandos who are not in a ranged template (where we certainly excel, and the CU lived up to its name, especially once AoE works again) or still grinding fullfill the role of being a tactically flexible damage dealer. As I said, this wouldn't really impact those of us who are already in a good ranged template; rather it would open the possibility of trying something different, but effectively.

My main arguement to the devs is, have AoE balanced as it is now...but don't confine our entire profession to it, because you lose flexibility...as well get bogged down in a no win situation with balance. We'll always be either underpowered or overpowered. Right now we're underpowered outside a ranged template, but balanced inside. If we had AoE working, 100%, and had it along with damage specials...we would be overpowered in a ranged template, but balanced outside - that is why, if we are to get specials (not needed if we get high damage consumables), we need our AoE weapons to be lower in damage to properly balance. But we wouldn't be underpowered, as we would have the flexibility to switch to a front loaded weapon and dish out the damage as we ought to be doing. See where Im getting at?

Just plopping in a special would make us overpowered once AoE starts working, leaving us be will leave us underpowered. We need our weapons to be re-organized for balance, as well as flexibility. We could function very well, if we had the tactical flexibility of choosing to do a spray damage type, and then switch to clobber a single target. Isn't that pretty much what the CU Documents pitched to us? Where we were a force to be reckoned with, but flexible on the battle fields? It combines what we have now, while still fitting into that dream.

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I'm sorry, but whipping out a Proton Rifle for single targets and a PFT or a LBC for multiple targets (when AoE damage gets fixed) is all that you could really want out of this profession besides a decent kinetic weapon.

I will be able to DESTROY enemies in my LBC AoE once the fixes go live, and I'll be able to cripple entire armies with my pistoleer/smuggler crowd control specials with my Acid Stream Launcher.

Sure, Commando lacks a damage special, but Reckless Shot and Placed Shot will be all that I need.

I understand your argument to better make Commando more utility instead of being just an AoE profession, and I think it would be a fine change, but I'd rather see NO damage special put in and keep the nice AoE than trade that for a generic damage special and gimp the AoE.

In the end, StarNick, I think pushing for the addition of a damage special and the reduction of AoE damage will just make Commando just another bland, characterless combat profession, and I don't particularly like that.

Commando to me has always meant "AoE domination" not "Just another combat profession with some AoE utility". Boooooring!!!

This is exactly why we should have the ability to Turn 'on' or 'off' the AOE effects, with drawbacks.

With AOE turned 'on' you get-

• AOE damage on targets withX elemental damage, X base damage, and X hit chance[Replace X with physical, working, numbers].


• Increased SAC Costs[You are hitting/aiming atmultiple targets].


• Increased Base Accuracy[If you end up missing target, AOE should still be around target].


• Decreased Damage Output[Being spread across multiple opponents].


• Increased DOT hit chance[Larger hit cone].


• Faster attack speed[Lower aiming requirements].

With AOE turned 'off' you get

• Single Target damage with X elemental damage, X base damage, and X hit chance[Replace X with physical, working, numbers].


• Decreased SAC Costs[Only Focusing on one target].


• Decreased Base Accuracy[Smaller hit area].


• Increased Damage Output[Everything focused on 1 target].


• Increased DOT effectiveness[Again, concentrated on single target].


• Slower Attack speed[Taking more time aiming].

Feel free to add/modify tothis if it presents use to anyone.

i like that idea.

make it so there is a built in toggle for all commando weapons...

only problem is that the devs dont want to see riflemen using some super commando weapon with their super specials.

the damage level would be too high.

thats the main reason they made our weapons AOE instead of hitting too hard.

Basically, why we need something other than AoE . I do have to disagree with you on the point that once they come up close, they'll be out of cone range - in PvE, thats where you have to manuver, and put your enemy into a zone of control to prevent the scenario that you described. If you just sit there and take it like normal professions, you're right...but there are ways around it. Now in PvP, if we were feared and folks took notice enough to out-manuver us to prevent this, well...then, we got a dead commando.

Lord_Eoin, thats a neat idea that I think has been proposed before, and sent to the corro forums a bit ago. My only fear with it, is that the coding could get very, very messy given that our AoE is messy right now (doing that, would be much harder than doing what we have right now)

"only problem is that the devs dont want to see riflemen using some super commando weapon with their super specials.

the damage level would be too high.

thats the main reason they made our weapons AOE instead of hitting too hard."

Tuscan, that would be true if it were not that rifles hit harder than heavy weapons. We're in the same damage ranges, but rifles come out a bit more damaging - and they're faster, with less SAC. Its really the other way around (at least, from what I can gather), that our AoE was turned into limited AoE because the devs didn't want commandos to be able to do snipershot damage, 100%, with the most powerful special. And ironically, that AoE was put in place to force commando's to not be able to spam hardcore damage left and right, since if they did, they would aggro everything around them. We would have to learn to properly control our damage. It was to not only help boost our damage, but control it at the same time - a curse but an advantage. The great irony? Our AoE would bring out the damage that would have to be controlled, but because of limited AoE...we don't compare, precisely for that reason.

Hence why we're in an underpowered/overpowered cycle, since all our main power comes from weapons that have AoE, which not only makes us difficult to balance (as I mentioned in past posts), but leaves non-AoE weapons in the dust because they have no true way to power up through damage - and if they did directly, they would unbalance us.

Im starting to feel like a broken record...but it all comes down to variety, something we always wanted in the profession and something that is needed to not only bring balance to us between ranged professions, but between melee professions. Do we all at least, agree with that?

Message Edited by StarNick on 09-04-2005 02:03 PM

By the way, Im not saying that once AoE gets fixed we'll still be underpowered. I have said in the past, that we'll be almost there, if not there, once AoE gets fixed...and especially if its 100% for all our AoE weapons. We get this much needed fix, and we may only need some tweaks here and there to help boost our damage - but we'll still be in the same situation of being difficult to balance.

Im specifically talking about further down the road that would allow commandos to be more flexible than we are right now in terms of balance, as well as expansion (we went from 1 trick pony flamethrower, to 1 kind of trick pony weapon type - AoE. Now this isn't bad on a weapon level, but do other professions have one type of special? Thats really what we have right now, especially since all our master weapons have DoTs as an innate state and nothing else).

We do not want to be stuck in a situation that leaves us underpowered with some professions, and not with others - thats a big contradiction of the CU. The profession has a great deal of potential that could really make Commando an even better profession than ever...

Message Edited by StarNick on 09-04-2005 02:09 PM

yarr.. i just want the proton rifle to have adcanced armor break built in...

And that goes back to what tacwraith was writing in the initial thread

Would be cool, but if our weapons would work as specials...they have to be pretty dang good innate effects - nothing chinsy like a blind that doesn't do squat were damage is concerned. Major problem with that is then maybe it'll become too powerful since we just simply have too much built into our weapons...the same, balanced with non-ranged professions, but unbalanced with them thing.

Very difficult to balance, but I wouldn't mind cooler, and more useful state effects such as that

I dont like consumable weapons. They gave all medics the ability to heal almost indefinately without the use of stimpacks... so why don't we have an indefinately supply of grenades on us? Having the rocket launcher return to it's consumable state is also a stupid idea. Weapons deteriorate at a fast enough rate as it is. I don't want to be running to a Weaponsmith every single day asking for another crate of stupid grenades and rocket launchers.

I do agree that the rocket launcher needs to have a serious increase in damage output (as well as a friggin rocket animation, not this fire fart thing that comes out of the end of it... and make the rocket launcher actually LOOK LIKE A ROCKET LAUNCHER?), but instead of being a consumable weapon, give it a short warm-up and a long cool-down so it's use is pretty much just a one-shot deal per every few combats. The same deal for grenades. They don't need to be consumable at all. As it stands, grenades do squat for damage. Make them an inherent ability, with each grenade type offering a different state adjustment. They wouldn't need extra long timers because all they are doing is applying states and adding a bit of damage.. same as a combat medic can apply states all day long.

Consumables make games annoying. There is no need to make the Commando profession use consumables for any reason, especially when you have to spend an ENTIRE BRANCH of your profession on just grendades alone....

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StarNick wrote:
Basically, why we need something other than AoE . I do have to disagree with you on the point that once they come up close, they'll be out of cone range - in PvE, thats where you have to manuver, and put your enemy into a zone of control to prevent the scenario that you described. If you just sit there and take it like normal professions, you're right...but there are ways around it. Now in PvP, if we were feared and folks took notice enough to out-manuver us to prevent this, well...then, we got a dead commando.

Lord_Eoin, thats a neat idea that I think has been proposed before, and sent to the corro forums a bit ago. My only fear with it, is that the coding could get very, very messy given that our AoE is messy right now (doing that, would be much harder than doing what we have right now)

"only problem is that the devs dont want to see riflemen using some super commando weapon with their super specials.

the damage level would be too high.

thats the main reason they made our weapons AOE instead of hitting too hard."

Tuscan, that would be true if it were not that rifles hit harder than heavy weapons. We're in the same damage ranges, but rifles come out a bit more damaging - and they're faster, with less SAC. Its really the other way around (at least, from what I can gather), that our AoE was turned into limited AoE because the devs didn't want commandos to be able to do snipershot damage, 100%, with the most powerful special. And ironically, that AoE was put in place to force commando's to not be able to spam hardcore damage left and right, since if they did, they would aggro everything around them. We would have to learn to properly control our damage. It was to not only help boost our damage, but control it at the same time - a curse but an advantage. The great irony? Our AoE would bring out the damage that would have to be controlled, but because of limited AoE...we don't compare, precisely for that reason.

Hence why we're in an underpowered/overpowered cycle, since all our main power comes from weapons that have AoE, which not only makes us difficult to balance (as I mentioned in past posts), but leaves non-AoE weapons in the dust because they have no true way to power up through damage - and if they did directly, they would unbalance us.

Im starting to feel like a broken record...but it all comes down to variety, something we always wanted in the profession and something that is needed to not only bring balance to us between ranged professions, but between melee professions. Do we all at least, agree with that?

Message Edited by StarNick on 09-04-2005 02:03 PM

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Yes, ive realised that, im just trying to point out feesible examples of what that might do. Yes, coding could become messy, but at this point, it seems like that would be the best course to try and implement, at least from my point of view.

Hmm. Let me think here for a second. If they were to fix our AoE to 100% AND give us some damage specials there is a way to fix it. Have a damage falloff. The further away the target is, the less damage it would do.

Now, because our PFT is our master weapon, 25m should be the falloff start on a major scale. This would mean that even though you can whip out your ASL and touch people at over 60m, you won't do that damage that you would get in CQB. This would keep us to being the close in combatant, which I think that we have all gotten accustomed to. Am I right?

This would mean that commandos are extreme death at close range, while the Rifleman would still rule at long range combat. If anybody is stupid enough to close with a commando, they would burn for their ignorance.


And hmm, we are meant to take down heavy weapon emplacements (aka Turrets) right? Well, then make the Rocket Launcher the only weapon that doesn't have that damage falloff, it is a projectile after all, but to balance it, we would need to have two different kinds. Have a Light Rocket Launcher that would basically be what we have now, and then add in a consumable Heavy Rocket Launcher (or whatever you want to call it).

This weapon would be consumable for a few reasons: It would have high damage so that it could take down turrets, heavy AoE (it IS a HE rocket after all), AND a long timer. Hell, even add in a accuracy debuff when used against moving targets. That would mean that the Light version would still rule the day if you wanted to, for whatever odd reason, attack people with it.


Basically, here is the chart:


0-25m -> 0% damage falloff (you are doing full damage to everything that you manage to hit)
25-30m -> 25% damage falloff (damage has already started to decrease a fair amount in this range bracket thanks to the shot dispersion)
30-40m -> 50% damage falloff (the damage gets even less)
40-50m -> 75% damage falloff (the shot dispersion is getting so wide that only elemental and states would be worth it)
50m+ -> 90% damage falloff (it ain't even worth it to fire at this range unless you want to stick states)

I would also take the time to actually give you the falloff equation, but I'm too lazy right now.

All of our AoE weapons, save the rocket launchers, would be affected by the damage falloff. The Proton Rifle would not due to its being a blaster for all intents and purposes. There might be some other weapons out there that wouldn't suffer from this, but I can't really think of any right now.

Comments and Crits encouraged, but please keep the flamers in your inventory.