Commando Archive
Thread: Why should we ask for an entire tree for the launcher pistol?
TK-132
Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:12 pm
#14
Personally I don't like the LP at all. Everytime I use it my game will lag for a couple seconds which gives those evil spice fiends plenty of time to kill me. I think we should ditch this weapon for something else. People always get really mad if they even so much as hear I'm carrying one of those things. It's too easy to be used as grief weapon. Plus how does a little pistol fire and endless amount of rockets? I want to have a weapon that shoots blaster bolts. Not a FT pistol.
I want to see an assault rifle of sorts. Besides that goes good with the title of "Heavy Infantry". I like rifles and a big deadly one would be extra sweet. As long as our defenses are ok. I want to have big firepower. But I want to get the chance to use that. That's why we need good overall defenses but not quite to the level of other professions otherwise we would be overpowered.
I want to see an assault rifle of sorts. Besides that goes good with the title of "Heavy Infantry". I like rifles and a big deadly one would be extra sweet. As long as our defenses are ok. I want to have big firepower. But I want to get the chance to use that. That's why we need good overall defenses but not quite to the level of other professions otherwise we would be overpowered.
Raptor2k1
Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:18 pm
#15
UFO-MOE
Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:34 pm
#16
garvin wrote:
Awhile back TH hinted that we might be getting a new tree but that nothing had be decided on...
I can tell you that, in the revamp stuff I saw, I didn't see what that new tree might be or if it's already worked in there...The revamp of our profession was using trees that we already had (with a lot of goodies added to each of them)...
I approached Kel (one of the Revamp programmers) regarding the new tree and he said "hmmm...we hadn't thought ofadding in the new tree WITH the revamp, but maybe..." He gave me the impression that he wanted us to get a feel for the Revamp changes and then decide if 1) We still needed a new tree & 2) Based on the changes in the Revamp, what type of tree we now felt we needed to make us complete...Remember...the key thing is that all of our Trees are getting a bit of a shake-up asare most Combat Professions...
So let me ask you this...Pre-Revamp...If you knew we could only get one new tree and had to decide between the following for the new tree which would you prefer:
- A LP tree with skill mods and specials
- An Unarmed/Melee Tree with Melee defenses and Specials
- An Assult Rifle Tree which utilizes our heavy weapon speed and accuracy but comes with ranged specials
- Defenses & Counters that up our defensive level and allow us to counter (with a cost) certain status effects
What would be your primary choice? I'll probably ask again once everyone knows what Revamp changes are coming (and it's sunk in)...I know what my choice would be, but I'm biased and I have insider knowledge, soI'm not sharing yet...
I partly wanted tobring this up (and now is a good time for it with this thread) because I didn't want people to be surprised or upset IF we don't see a new tree with the Revamp...that doesn't mean that one isn't coming...Personally, and it took awhile for me to realize this, I like the idea of us basing our "new tree" decission on what we still need post-revamp, instead of deciding before the revamp and getting something that could become redundent or not as useful thanks to other revamp changes....
Thoughts? Like I said...a lot could have changed, and Kel may have gotten a new tree worked in there for all I know (I haven't seen a updated "By Profession" revamp doc yet)...
Assault Rifle of course, Its kinda weird that the Flamer is our main weapon anyways. Can you imagine a Whole military unit where each soldier had a flamethrower? Not a good idea, so thats why i think we need a regular projectile weapon, then maybe the flamer for CC combat or indoor combat
Message Edited by UFO-MOE on 10-13-2004 09:39 PM
hendrake
Thu Oct 14, 2004 12:48 am
#17
i would like to see an assault rifle tree myself, always been a fan of that sorta idea. I cant say i would be unhappy with an lp tree, i mean if its better than the HAR then im happy. Besides, id actually have to be careful that nobody gets hurt in those wonderful LP duels.
Llandros
Thu Oct 14, 2004 5:35 am
#18
choosing a singel new tree, id dgo defences and counters
id also happily dump the pistol (jsut doenst seme right amongst all those heavy weapons) and the har for a minigun (pref ap1 and say kinetic or energy dam) esp if the minigun got a nice area state special 
(posture down would be amasing if it had a decent range)
(posture down would be amasing if it had a decent range)
Gunner_excel
Thu Oct 14, 2004 5:39 am
#19
I could have a friggen star destroyer in my back pocket but if im on my back floping around like a fish outta water what good is it, I vote defense. The automatic rifle tree would be my second pick.
xPREDATORx
Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:01 am
#20
personallly i kinad agree with u id have it like this
master commando
Special Forces
xPREDATORx
Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:17 am
#21
what???? glitch or what?
hear goes again
master commando
Special forces Troop Demolitionist ShockTrooperHeavy Infantry
what id do make replace grenadier with special forces trooper(all combat xp)and have it like this
box1
Launcher training +25 pistol speed
+25 pistol accuracy
Pistol special Detonation shot: a commando at this level can time the shot to explode exactly just above the enemies head level causing severe damage and trauma to the head.
box2 Commando Fitness
as a commando you are among the most elite,fittest and toughest persons in the army to date.
terrain negotiation + 30
burst run efficiency + 15
unarmed toughness + 35
box3 commando spirit
as a commando your mind become just almost as deadly as your weapons!
commando special Commando attack acts the same way as berserk ads a speed boost to ranged weapons
box4 Fighting at War
as a combatant of war sometimes things get to close and personal and need hand to hand training
defense against dizzy+ 30
defense against knockdown +30
unarmed special Tackle does a strong health damage with a sudden knock down
unarmed toughnes + 10
master commando would also get def against kd and dizzy+10
Demonlitionist would now have all consumables heavy luanchers,bazookas and now grenades
Shock trooper has Har and Flamer in same tree
Heavy infantry now has a whole space for a heavy machine gun (minigun/m60 like weapon)
what you think guys?
Oneish
Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:33 am
#22
To be honest I dont think the Commando should have an entire tree devoted to the LP. Now the reason why I say this is that the Commando was always meant to be a specialist within heavy weapons, not lighter weapons. However because a Commando is a Jack of all traits he does have the Master Marksmann skills within basic firearms if you will. And the LP is just his favoritte lightarm. However any Commando that wishes to pursue the use of the LP is free to get more pistoleer skills. I think what would happen if the LP got its own tree is that it would get to good.. (meaning some commando, pistoleer and BH pistol skills..) And Im not sure that would really balance anything..
Now I think if we should push for another weapon for the Commando it should be a heavyweapon (be it slow..) that has armor penetration.. why the Commando with all its heavyweapons lack a mainstream weapon with armor penetration is beyond me.. give us a heavy rifle w. heavy AP
Well thats my two cents.
LuciusScipio
Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:41 am
#23
garvin wrote:
So let me ask you this...Pre-Revamp...If you knew we could only get one new tree and had to decide between the following for the new tree which would you prefer:
- A LP tree with skill mods and specials
- An Unarmed/Melee Tree with Melee defenses and Specials
- An Assult Rifle Tree which utilizes our heavy weapon speed and accuracy but comes with ranged specials
- Defenses & Counters that up our defensive level and allow us to counter (with a cost) certain status effects
What would be your primary choice? I'll probably ask again once everyone knows what Revamp changes are coming (and it's sunk in)...I know what my choice would be, but I'm biased and I have insider knowledge
My choices are (from most important to least important):
- Defenses & Counters that up our defensive level and allow us to counter (with a cost) certain status effects
- An Assult Rifle Tree which utilizes our heavy weapon speed and accuracy but comes with ranged specials
- An Unarmed/Melee Tree with Melee defenses and Specials
I agree with the origional poster. It would be a waste of skill points to devote an entire tree to the LP. That's why I'm not including it in thelist I just typed. I personally find our poor defenses to be most troublesome about our profession, followed by the need for us to weild a competent second weapon whether it be a fixed HAR and/or a new Assault Rifle...anything that will provide us with a greater variety of weapons than what we currentlyhave.
Message Edited by LuciusScipio on 10-14-2004 02:42 PM
BravenIrish
Thu Oct 14, 2004 3:57 pm
#24
What a refreshing thread! It's difficult to have any productive input pre-revamp or before the infamose Doc's are released...but currently, it seem we are somewhat split on the LP tree issue. Good discussion.
I've always been more vesitility. I've always felt that Commando should be represented by the skill point investment we require. As of now, our investments are represented by ineffective long ranged consumables, suicidal medium ranged consumables, an ineffective short ranged "pistol", a decient NO ranged flamethrower, and an amazingly shamefulno ranged "Heavy" acid FT....thing. All of this wrapped up in a nice "Crappy Melee Defence" package. But I'm preaching to the choir here! We KNOW this...what some of us DON'T know is that our problems do not lay within 16m. Our problems stem from our lack of RANGED VERSITILITY. Sure, we can throw grenades with Carbineers....and it costs tons and is ineffective in most cases. We can shoot our Heavy Consumables with the riflemen...once again, expensive and ineffective. Let's move in where we are effective! The Flamethrower! Ineffective in compairison with other professions who play inside. HAR is a joke. LP is a joke. Where does that leave us?
That leaves us with spending 169 SP to be an ineffective Melee ranged restricted fool with NO OPTIONS. If you master "Brawler"...you have options. If you master "Marksman", you have options. When you Master Commando...you limit yourself to being ineffective in Melee range and even worse everywhere else. It's true.
WE need versitility. THAT is how we can become the FRONT LINE TROOPS! Not by making us great "inside". Not by patching things or shifting things to make Commandos who are so used to dealing with our horrible circumstances, will accept anything that restricts a well rounded and pure combat based profession if it feels better. NO!
Why should Commandos be restricted to 16m? We should not! And making a LP tree would be, quite frankly, retarded. More restrictions. Now we might be good at short and no range..but we suck everywhere else. NO! No way!
Commandos should have the weapons and ability to take the place of Riflemen, Carbineer, Pistoleer, and TKM. Not as good, butclose, and IF we specialize in that field we should be the best. That's how to justify our profession. Heavy Weapon Specialists can deal nice DAMAGE at every range...it represents out SP sacrafice. Having a Pistol treewill not help our versitility, and thinking so is theshort mindedness that will restrict us even more eventually.
Commandos need the verisitility to participate in a group effectively. Any group. Whether it be long ranged in a group of TKM or tanking for a group of ranged. YES the Elite counterparts will be better then a Master Commando at these ranges...but we also can deal heavy damage to hard targets. Nice trade off for the SP. But we can also justify our pre-reqs buy having ther ablility to fill in for a lacking or fallen profession.
A Master Commando should have the option to Master Medic..maybe Artisan..or even Entertainer and still function well in combat. Versitility in our profession people. THAT should be OUR GOAL! An LP tree will never do that.
Ranged Versitility! We train in every range, not just pistol or unarmed. We spend the SP in every range. We deserve to NOT have the range restrictions as Elite professions. We deserve Ranged Versitility and due to the lack of remainig skill points, the option to specialize in any Elite Combat profession OR supplement an all ready versitile trade with Medic, Artisan, Entertainer, or even Politician without losing credibility and usefullness within a group.
PERIOD!
SLAINTE'
RankorCity
Thu Oct 14, 2004 5:13 pm
#25
I dunno...
The LP has its moments, but should be a situational type gun (say, combat between 16 meters and 32 meters)...
From what I understand from nitpicking Garvins posts is that the intention is to have symbiotic relationship between Commando and other combat professions. This being the case, if you were a pistol afficionado, the most obvious route would be to go Commando/Pistoleer....If you were a rifle lover (and a weapon called, assault rifle, or launcher rifle a la launcher pistol), then go Commando/Rifleman...I could see a new rifle given to Commandos that utilizes Rifle specials, much like the LP does.
Ranged and melee mitigation are supposedly going by the wayside in the CB/R (seeing as Jedi is already prebalanced, and has neither), or its getting a new name. So there apparently will be no penalty for not having ranged/melee mitigation 3....
The killer here is the the time delays in switching weapons. Say your a Commando, in a full base assault...You go in with your flamer (assuming its specials are still restricted to 16 meters), then your target gets outside your 16 meter special range and you need to go with a weapon that is handy outside of 16 meters, so you equip your LP...and wait....Meanwhile your target has either gone further than 32 meters, or has closed the gap again to 12 meters, thus requiring say your flamer or HAR...So you equip your flamer...and wait. Rinse repeat....
I can see where they want to go with this organic/symbiotic relationship, but I honestly think they have bitten off more than they can chew. The ideas are great, but implementation is another thing.
Ryubushi
Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:32 am
#26
I'm glad to see that there are more people who, like me, think we don't need an entire LP tree than I originally thought.
I understand the people wanting the tree, kind of. You want to be able to use that weapon with great skill. But, I think as commandos, we should be well-versed in all firearms, not just pistols. Master marksman simply doesn't do it.
Ideally, by the time you hit master, there would be an additional +15 or +20 to our speed/accuracy mods for pistols/rifles/carbines, and a +15 accuracy/+25 damage to our unarmed combat with the Commando Basics tree I'm wanting. Granted, that's not the same as an entire tree that might grant +20 to +30 mods to pistols, but this puts commandos in a better position to pick up a secondary profession that's an extension of the pre-reqs and be viable.
With an LP-only tree, you'd be set up only for pistoleer (though you would be set up quite well, and yes, I am intentionally omitting BH/smuggler, as they are not a "military" profession).
The basics tree I suggest would put us in pretty good shape to pick up our choice of tka, rifleman, carbineer, or pistoleer as a secondary profession.
I've seen a few mentions around the forums of commando fitness, getting terrain negotiation mods in a skill tree somewhere. In an ideal world, that too would fall under the Commando Basics tree I envision, however I think asking for that would be asking for too much.
As it is, I can't decide how xp for the Basics tree would go; combat xp, or something new. Using standard pistol/rifle/carbine/UA xp for each respective box just doesn't seem right. Making it combat xp required, like field tactics, would slow down the grind to master, and maybe, just maybe justify asking for one or two more minor things...
Master
Commando
Field Tactics 1-4 Heavy Support Weapons 1-4 Anti-Personnel Weapons 1-4 Commando Basics 1-4
(AKA Anti-Vehicle Weapons)
Novice Commando
Really, is it that bad a layout for us?
Message Edited by Ryubushi on 10-15-2004 01:33 AM