Commando Archive

I had no idea until today that you got the melee damage multiplier in this patch also (of course no notes about it). But I understand your frustration about it, but would like to point a few things out, which doesn't necessarily make you feel any better.

First of all I've seen loads of Riflemen use the "If I hold a rifle instead of a pistol a punch in my face doesn't hurt me more"as defense and I see the same thing being used by many commandos now. This I would argue against with that the basic melee damage in SWG are based around that it expects that the damage reciever can use his hands or arms to somewhat block the attack and lowering the damage. If you do indeed hold a bulky weapon as a rifle or heavy weapon you would have nothing to defend you with and therefore the damage would increase (of course you could argue that the weapon itself, especially a rifle, works as a melee weapon. But that wouldn't work that wellin regards togame balance).

When I first saw a Dev saying they considered adding a 2.5x melee multiplier to commandos I agreed it was good from a reality perspective (If rifles are bulky so are heavy weapons) and somewhat fair to close combat fighters. ButI was a bit worried it would hit the commando too hard as several of their best attacks are within 16 meters. I myself haven't had that much against the commando weapons except the flame DoT and the fact riflemen took 2.5x the damage from any flamer attack.

But if you look at the problem a bit more in depth you do not really have ahigher disadvantage than a rifleman.

It's true that a Rifleman dish out all their damage from a distance and should therefore if played properly be able to stay away from the melee damage multiplier. But at the same time if we DO get into melee, which does happend very often, as more or less all mobs are Melee and everyone and his grandma got a cowardly gurreck in PvP, we are fried. Our accuracy is none existant closer than 20 meters and we'll go down in 1-2 hits from most creatures. We're also often unable to wear armor due to the high mind costs of our rifles. This means everyone WANTS to get close to a rifle wielder cause that is the way to counter the rifle damage.

A commando on the other hand does cause immense amounts of damage in close combat. With your rocket launcher and particle beam cannonyou're also able to do that damage at a distance (for a higher cost though). The difference on a commando and rifleman are that you are ABLE to defend yourself in close combat. If you are charged by a cowardly gurreck or attacked by a melee specialist you can kill these with one good shot. Riflemen on the other hand are dead. No one WANTS to get close to a commando. Even a high level melee character would hesitate as he knows one good hit will always kill him.

But whatever I say or try to argue for commandos have gotten nerfed. But you might have to accept the fact that you, as riflemen, is now a support close. You are those dealing the heavy damage, but you'll only be able to if you play smart and/or got others that can take the damage rather than you. At range use your long range heavy weapons to kill your opponent, just as riflemen. If they do manage to get close though you can either switch to the flamer and hope to get a good hit or switch to unarmed. Riflemen can't do this. Yes, it requires tactics and you can't just rush in and kill everything like pistoleers can.. but if played right you'll still be more powerfull than most other classes.

Really nice post.

After thinking about the whole issue for a few minutes, commandos do not have it as bad as rifleman. There is always the launcher pistol to fallback on. And really, if you're in melee range, there is no real reason to have the FT out. You pull it out, use the special, then put it away. If for some reason you don't want to use the special, then you can use it at 64m and still be almost as accurate as you are at 10m.

I think many people are complaining because it's a change. Also, many people went commando for the FT and now it got a big penalty on it.

Bah. Trystan, I've been through every change commando has been through since release. And I most assuredly did not get the profession for the flamethrower..... I just ended up with a flamethrower as the only cost-effective functional weapon in the class.

Launcher pistol? I spend, what, 177 skill points on master commando and I'm supposed to use the launcher pistol? The one we get no accuracy or speed mods or even specials for outside of the marksman pre-requisites? THAT'S why I'm playing the second most skill point intensive class in the game? No, I don't think so.

Commandos don't have it as bad as riflemen? They spend one third the points as us..... they do five times the damage at 64m as we do (not counting expendables. Scratch that, EVEN counting expendables. A master rifleman can fire a special every single second... a master commando can only shoot a rocket once every nine seconds)... they get defensive mods and skills.... they have more then four specials.... they have AOE attacks at 64m.... the list seriously goes on.

I had sympathy for riflemen until one too many rifleman decided to come to this board to laugh at us. Now, I frankly don't care if that class has problems or not. All I do care about is that the ONLY FOUR SPECIALS OUR CLASS has put us at the mercy of a 2.5x damage multiplier. WHY is that worth spending 177 skill points on?

Sorry, but the skill point argument does not work for either commandos or BHs. What you get with the higher skill point expenditure is a more versatile character. You are not supposed to challenge any of the elite marksman professions at their advantages. Riflemen are supposed to do good damage from a range and no one else is supposed to do that better as we're specialized in it. Both BHs and Commandos instead get a lot more specialized weapons that can be used in different situations. Riflemen get the T21 which is at the moment useless compared to a Laser Rifle.

And I though the rocket launcher had AoE damage?

Sorry, but the skill point argument does not work for either commandos or BHs.

Actually, according to the combat designer, YES IT DOES

According to him, as reposted by either Q or Holo some weeks ago in the thread 'A few words from the combat designer' or similiar.... yes, BH and commandos ARE supposed to be superior to the less skill point intensive professions. So I'm sorry, but the devs are on record as disagreeing with you.

But if I want to take your argument to it's conclusion, it still falls down. Obviously the commando specialty is close range massive damage.... yet a pistoleer, not having the 2.5x damage penalty can SURVIVE at close range, making them far more effective.

So either yes, we are supposed to be rewarded for spending more skill points.... which we're not being, currently. Or we're supposed to be the best at a specialty.... which we're not being, currently. Either way.

And I though the rocket launcher had AoE damage?

I wouldn't know as I've never once seen one for sale or found a weaponsmith willing to make one. Another problem riflemen don't have.... weaponsmiths are actually willing to make a t-21 if they have the resources for it. In the case of rocket launchers and grenades, even if they have the resources most weaponsmiths aren't willing to go to the trouble to make them. Of course, that puts aside the cost issue completely... even if the rocket launcher has Uber-riffic damage..... NO ONE COULD EVER AFFORD TO USE ONE REGULARLY. Not a problem the rifleman has with their weapons, either.

Mr Rifleman, remember commandos are HELPLESS for 9 to 15 seconds after using their 18m special attacks.

Holding a pistol or a vibroknuckler doesnt help. Mobs attack once every 1.8 to 2.2 seconds on average. That means FOUR bites before the commando can fire again. And we both know just how much life is left after 4 bites... especially when you equip flamethrower again to fire and the 5th bite kills you.

Do not compare Riflemen and Commando, they are completely different classes. Riflemen should have ALL rifles have -118 accuracy when below 20m range and not have that idiotic 2.5x damage penalty on melee.

Then please point me to the dev post stating that. Commandos and BHs are supposed to be versatile. If used correctly they can handle all situations, which a rifleman, carbineer or pistoleer can not. A BH can hit any pool they like and have a weapon specializing in speed and one in damage. They are also able to cause bleeds and knockdowns.

Commandos have long range single target hitters, long range AoE damage weapons, short range AoE damage, short range heavy bleeds, weapons causing damage which armors seldom resist against and also a fast shooting pistol removing any melee penalties.

You're saying you didn't want to become a master commando just to use your novice commando launcher pistol. I didn't become a master rifleman to use a tier 2 marksman rifle. And thats the only one worth using for us.

Quas, I'd like to add for the record that my earlier post (To all the riflemen posting here...) is NOT a result of YOUR posts. WhileI clearly disagree with nearly every word you've said and you're not as informed as you should be in several of your points, you have nevertheless conducted yourself with tact and respect. For which I thank you; if your profession-mates had behaved similiarly instead of posting a string of "Ha ha we're laughing at you!" posts they (and you) would still have my support.

You might consider having a word with them onyour forum concerning the harm they're causing here. Speaking for myself, I'll damned well never post in favor of any rifleman fix ever again.

Then please point me to the dev post stating that.

No. Nothing personal, but I'm tired of folks asking me to do their research for them. I gave you the title of the thread in question as close as I can remember it.... you can now use the search feature to locate it every bit as easily as I could. If you want to see where the devs contradict you, hit search or the dev tracker and look for the thread I named.

Commandos have long range single target hitters, long range AoE damage weapons, short range AoE damage, short range heavy bleeds, weapons causing damage which armors seldom resist against and also a fast shooting pistol removing any melee penalties.

Commandos more to the point have three weapon types: expendables, heavy, and the launcher pistol. Expendables are NOT useful in the slightest PvE, especially when one considers this patch has nerfed max mission payouts to 6k. Heavy weapons are horribly horribly inaccurate at long range, only perform specials at short range, and even at master have five times the delay on a NORMAL attack as a master rifleman has with any rifle weapon. Oh, and has been mentioned elsewhere, simply switching weapons after firing a heavy weapon special does NOT negate the melee damage penalty until the special timer runs out.... anywhere from 8 to 20 seconds, depending on special/weapon/skill level. The launcher pistol has nothing except pistol I-IV mods from the marksman tree, making it effectively useless without the investment in cross-profession additional skills. Fire once every two to three seconds for 200-300 damage with bad accuracy at all ranges due to lack of accuracy mods? No thank you.

So where's the versatility? A class of weapons which is impractical at best to use, even on those occasions when it can be found to be purchased. A class of weapons that's only accurate (marginally) at close range, that only performs specials at close range, and which will now get us killed if we use them the way they're meant to be used. And a **edit** child, the launcher pistol, which is only supposed to be a gateway weapon for us to get proficiency with our heavy weapons and has no bonuses within commando at all.

You're saying you didn't want to become a master commando just to use your novice commando launcher pistol. I didn't become a master rifleman to use a tier 2 marksman rifle. And thats the only one worth using for us.

So, wait, you're saying that since your class has problems, mine should have too? I'd really, really rethink that argument if I were you.

@Romana: Excellent posts. I've been reading every onedeveloping a knot in the nape of my neck from nodding in agreement with you. I certainly chime inunison with you, for our profession is mostly broken and still in desperate need of repair despite the jump-start we received not so long ago. Since I began playing SWG, I was immediately drawn to the commando profession, but was shooed away by those who were commandos from the beginning due to the awful state the profession was in back then. Therefore I contented myself with becoming a Bounty Hunter until the fabled Commando fix arrived. Of course this never came, but once our weapon certs were fixed, and heavy weapons overhauled (for the most part hehe), I could wait no longer and left BH for Commando. I don't regret that for a moment, for a Commando is what I always wanted my character to be.

I have made it a point to experiment with and use all of our certified weapons in battle in a variety of situations. I have noticed very little difference in thrown weapon and heavy support weapon accuracy from Novice to Master. I am careful to check the stats of our weapons to discover at what range I should use them...and if I am not mistaken, the most powerful grenade of them all - the proton - is best when tossed from a distance of 10 meters. Hmmmm...

Yes, I did this. Really. Luckily for me I was wearing composite armor with excellent protection ratings, otherwise I would have taken the Cloning Center express due tosheer stupidity, Yes, the proton grenade delivers massive heat damage in a 10 meter radius, and I had most of my health bar cleaned out.Indeed, funny how that is the ideal range to employ it from. Suicide Ninja!

Our weapons are indeed still broken. The only real difference I have noticed concerning Novice vs. Master accuracy is when I employ the Heavy Particle Beam cannonat the ideal range. I hit more than miss with it. It's supposed to inflict area damage, though I have never seen this occur. I have purposefully fired the beam into mobs hoping for this to happen, yet it did not.That's it, though. Grenades are a tremendous waste of money, as are the other heavy support weapons. And I won't even mention the pitiful acid rifle. Bah.

Quas, I relented enough to spend 60 seconds to do a very quick search on what you asked for. I did not find the post I'm remembering, which is very long, involved and detailed. I did, however, find this one...

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Development&message.id=544037&highlight=combat+designer+commando+edge#M544037

I do recommend you search for and read the other, longer post I recall as it's far more verbose. This one, however, sums it up.

So yep. Commandos and BHs ARE supposed to be superior to all others. The other post goes into a lot more detail, talking about the skill point investment, etc, and is a much more explicit read. You'll have to find it on your own, though.

"What you get with the higher skill point expenditure is a more versatile character."

Using a flamethrower = having a versatile character? lol

I was wondering why everytime I use FlameCone1 I was dead before I could even see the shot animation. At first I though HAM costs were screwed up, but then saw I was hit for ungodly damage immediatly.

I feel a bit sorry for the commandos with out all the Pistol skills I have.