Commando Archive
Thread: 2.5X melee Modifier Should not be a concern
I would have to say this it is a good idea to have this. First off none of our heavy weapons are effective within melee range. There is Zero reason to have your Flamethrower or HAR equiped within 10m or our opponent. We need to use strategy. We have +20 unarmed toughness. This gives melee defense when we go unarmed. Our battle strategy should consist of appling the Flame DOT first. If we are not in danger of being hit by Melee attacks then continue to use the flamethrower. If you do get in danger while you are recovering from the Flame special unequip the flamethrower. This allows us to use the +20 unarmed toughness. Afterwe recover from the special andwe are under melee attack, apply HealthShot Bleed with the Blaster Pistol then go unarmed again. If necessary apply Center of Being and Peace. We have +45 Unarmed Center of Being Effecienty. It is more effective under Peace. We are practicly our own Tank. This should give us plenty of time to allow the DOT's to run their course. This is also a great time to use Grenades to finish the Target off.
We should not be effected by this modifier and even without it there is no reason to have the weapons equiped within Melee range. This strategy does not account Armor or Medical Skills which would both increase our effectiveness surviving battle.
I agree completely.
The 2.5 dam mod actually adds some danger to the commando profession, especially in PvE. Our offense is tremendous, and so then should our vulnerablities be. Moreover, these are heavy weapons we're carrying. It is consistent with logic that our defense to melee would be handicapped due to these large bulky weapons.
Final note- it gives those gimped meleers something to do in PvP.
Just one man's opinion.
Zedar Xang, Commando/Medic, Bloodfin
HarrisMoD wrote:
I would have to say this it is a good idea to have this. First off none of our heavy weapons are effective within melee range. There is Zero reason to have your Flamethrower or HAR equiped within 10m or our opponent. We need to use strategy. We have +20 unarmed toughness. This gives melee defense when we go unarmed. Our battle strategy should consist of appling the Flame DOT first. If we are not in danger of being hit by Melee attacks then continue to use the flamethrower. If you do get in danger while you are recovering from the Flame special unequip the flamethrower. This allows us to use the +20 unarmed toughness. Afterwe recover from the special andwe are under melee attack, apply HealthShot Bleed with the Blaster Pistol then go unarmed again. If necessary apply Center of Being and Peace. We have +45 Unarmed Center of Being Effecienty. It is more effective under Peace. We are practicly our own Tank. This should give us plenty of time to allow the DOT's to run their course. This is also a great time to use Grenades to finish the Target off.
We should not be effected by this modifier and even without it there is no reason to have the weapons equiped within Melee range. This strategy does not account Armor or Medical Skills which would both increase our effectiveness surviving battle.
First off, I don't know where you came up with the idea that none of our HW are effective at Melee range. The only HW, grenades not considered, is the RL with a range of 64m. All other HW to include FT and HAR are 16m weapons. Melee range is 15m. Hit attack button, enemy and your are in melee range. Are you new to commando or just dabbling? Yes we do get some melee defenses and more at Master However, check the Brawler forum and you will see the CoB is broken. Also, fyi, the cool down timer is still in place even after changing weapons. The cool down timer is even in place when attempting to heal self or others.
You are right about armor though. The down side is in order to get really good kinetic armor you have to be able to wear it.
My advice, get more educated about the commando profession before posting inaccurate information.
His comments are mostly accurate. Your reply still doesn't address why, in terms of balance and logic, we shouldn't have a penalty. Anyone who has been a commando before the 2.5 mod knows we were overpowered at that point.
Nerf the flamethrower without making HAR useful, and I might agree about reducing or removing the melee mod.
Final note:
I've noticed that after flameing a target i can switch immediately to a melee weapon, therebykilling the mod.
Zedar Xang, Commando, Bloodfin
BaukaRaun wrote:
HarrisMoD wrote:
I would have to say this it is a good idea to have this. First off none of our heavy weapons are effective within melee range. There is Zero reason to have your Flamethrower or HAR equiped within 10m or our opponent. We need to use strategy. We have +20 unarmed toughness. This gives melee defense when we go unarmed. Our battle strategy should consist of appling the Flame DOT first. If we are not in danger of being hit by Melee attacks then continue to use the flamethrower. If you do get in danger while you are recovering from the Flame special unequip the flamethrower. This allows us to use the +20 unarmed toughness. Afterwe recover from the special andwe are under melee attack, apply HealthShot Bleed with the Blaster Pistol then go unarmed again. If necessary apply Center of Being and Peace. We have +45 Unarmed Center of Being Effecienty. It is more effective under Peace. We are practicly our own Tank. This should give us plenty of time to allow the DOT's to run their course. This is also a great time to use Grenades to finish the Target off.
We should not be effected by this modifier and even without it there is no reason to have the weapons equiped within Melee range. This strategy does not account Armor or Medical Skills which would both increase our effectiveness surviving battle.
First off, I don't know where you came up with the idea that none of our HW are effective at Melee range. The only HW, grenades not considered, is the RL with a range of 64m. All other HW to include FT and HAR are 16m weapons. Melee range is 15m. Hit attack button, enemy and your are in melee range. Are you new to commando or just dabbling? Yes we do get some melee defenses and more at Master However, check the Brawler forum and you will see the CoB is broken. Also, fyi, the cool down timer is still in place even after changing weapons. The cool down timer is even in place when attempting to heal self or others.
You are right about armor though. The down side is in order to get really good kinetic armor you have to be able to wear it.
My advice, get more educated about the commando profession before posting inaccurate information.
I am A Master Commando and Have been Sometime. CoB is not broken I am a Fancer as well and With CoB activated MOBs miss more and Cause Less Damage. Not to mention that during Peace it is twice as effective. Maybe you attempt to use the technique instead of assuming. Also Many TKA's have commented on its positiveeffectiveness.
BaukaRaun wrote:
Also, fyi, the cool down timer is still in place even after changing weapons. The cool down timer is even in place when attempting to heal self or others.
Obviously you must be new to the profession since you don't realize if you switch to unarmed during the cool down period you recieve the unarmed bonuses during that time. You then can re-equip your flamethrower after the cool down timer expires.
please excuse my ignorance but, what is center of being? what does it do; does this come with unarmed; what is the command?
kapm wrote:
please excuse my ignorance but, what is center of being? what does it do; does this come with unarmed; what is the command?
Center is the Brawler "Tank" Command. You recieve it at Novice Brawler. It is more effective if you use it while peaced.
Center of Being has nothing to do with Melee Defense. They are checked at completely different levels of the "to hit" caculation. But it does have to do with defense during combat... so I know what you were refering to.
*For 2handed/Swordsmen: CoB is a boost to CounterAttack.
*For Polearm/Pikemen: CoB is a boost to Block.
*For 1handed/Fencers: CoB is a boost to Dodge.
CounterAttack, Block, and Dodge are all more of less the same thing in SWG. Each has a bit of an advantage vs. different attack types, but all give a second chanceat avoiding damage if the normal "to hit" calculation determined through Melee/Ranged Defense and Accuracy mods determines a hit.
*For Unarmed/Teras Kasi: CoB is a boost to Defense Acuity. This is new to SWG. They used to have an equal chance to Block, CounterAttack, or Dodge. This gave the game engine 3 different things to juggle. This was replaced byDefense Acuity. Now there isonlyone mod to determine whether or not it successfully goes of, then it randomly manifests as a Dodge, CounterAttack, or Block.
CoB modifiers come in two flavors: Duration and Efficacy.Duration is just what you'd think it was. The higher th Duration, the longer the effect will be in place. This modifer gives +1 second for every +1 Duration. Efficacy is a fancy word for effectiveness, and determines the amount of boost to provide to it's root defensive manuever. Data for the relative boost is not yet complete, but at this time +100 Efficacy seems to double the supported defensive manuever.
Anyone who has been a commando before the 2.5 mod knows we were overpowered at that point.
But at that time we did the 2.5x bonus damage to other Ranged fighters...that's why we were so overpowered...We weren't overkilling everyone, just other ranged fighters...and that's why we pushed so hard for change...We wanted to make sure we didn't do the 2.5 mod to ranged players, but didn't expect to be lumped in with them. The dev's made a clear mistake. Instead of putting us either ina Melee Class or a Ranged Class, they should have created a 3rd alternate of a Class for just us...Ranged Fighters who fight at Melee Range...i.e. we don't do the 2.5 mod, but also don't fall victim to it...or a mod of a smaller amount....
Commando as it stands right now is in no way over-powered. If we were over-powered we would rarely ever lose a PvP and we would one-shot often...and anyone who plays PvP knows that we win some, we lose some...balance issues are actually pretty good right now...the Flame Dot is still hard hitting, but the new incap rules help...plus many of us are pushing for an med type kit to put out the Dot...once that is in place, there will be no arguement regarding us being over-powered...we will be very well balanced (combat wise) as compared to other professions requiring the same amount of skill pts. This is not taking into account our broken/useless trees & weapons. Those trees and weapons, while severly handicapped, are not taking away from our fighting power, but rather the variety of fighting styles which limits our use of strategy (forcing us to often focus on a limited amount of weapons and specials in every battle).
With the last patch changes, personally I'm no longer having troubles with the 2.5x Melee issue...but that's also because of my template...I have obtained Master Commando...+30 Melee Defense...and 2 boxes so far in TKA...(+30) Melee Defense...And I have a +4 Melee Defense undershirt...with additional Melee Defenses from other areas I am currently sitting at +70 Melee Defense....what does this mean...it means that what I go fight any NPC that is Melee, they miss me the majority of the time...I fought several Mauler Masters last night...out of 10 attempted hits on me, 7 missed (I'm going to try to get screen shots posted soon)....and those that did hit were well absorbed by a decent set of 54% composite (no buffs). I even took out several Bol nests last night by myself (something I couldn't do post patch, before all the Melee Defense additions)...Tonight I am going to run some tests with a nice set of 70% Kinetic Ubese...By the time I finish my template I will have an additional +34 Melee Defense...So the 2.5x Melee Bonus isn't a big scare factor on me at this point as the amount of protection helps in balancing...Does making me hard to hit make me over-powered...no, because once I equip my Flame Thrower I take the chance of2.5x melee bonus damage, and other ranged fighters can still stay out of my specials range...so if they last long enough, those few hits they can land on me can count severly....the battle can go either way via strategy.
The 2.5x Melee Bonus issue may be mute soon...If the rumors regarding Mitigation coming soon are true, then the 2.5 mod will be gone...and new defense/damage system will be in place. The way it will work is that Ranged Professions will come with Ranged Mitigation and Melee with Melee Mitigation. Those Mitigation levels will determine how much damage you take from that type of attack. Since Ranged professions will have low or no Melee Mitigation, they will take full damage, and the same with Melee Vs. Ranged...so it will all come down to where you spend those extra skill points to protect yourself...A right combination of Melee/Range Defenses and the right amount of Ranged/Melee Mitigation will help build the best character to meet your needs.
Commando's are in no way Over-Powered...anyone who claims we are hasn't done their Homework...or...they are often taken down by a Commando and are using this claim to Nerf Commandos rather then fix their own character. Any combat profession has the potential of taking down a Commando, some obviously better then others, but again, it all comes down to how you spend those extra Skill Pts...If you have taken a close look at the Dev's recent changes you'll notice they are attempting to move away from nerfing attack power and instead are focusing on Defensive abilities...instead of coming here and saying Commandos Are Over Powered, instead you should be saying "My Profession needs better protection from _____. Fix us, don't Nerf them."
First off none of our heavy weapons are effective within melee range.
The flamer indeed works well at long range and close range. However many other weapons actually require you to be within 30m of the target to even start to see the benfits, the HAR itself actually works best at 15m and less. There's also a number of the disposable weapon which require the target to be within 30m from the target. By the commando's very nature we have unarmed combat skills so that we can apply weapons to close range combat, with the multiplier this becomes impossible using the weapons designed to fill that role.
Our battle strategy should consist of appling the Flame DOT first. If we are not in danger of being hit by Melee attacks then continue to use the flamethrower. If you do get in danger while you are recovering from the Flame special unequip the flamethrower.
I'm sorry but this just shows you looking at the commando from only the point of using a flamer, which indeed works at almost all ranges. This isn't a one gun profession like the other elites, we have several and they all need to serve a purpose. If a HAR or other disposable weapons are designed to be used at close range then they shouldn't have a x2.5 damage multiplier.
This should give us plenty of time to allow the DOT's to run their course.
Again a flamethrower tactic, this arguement isn't taking the other weapons into consideration at all. From your point of view the HAR and the disposable weapons don't even serve a purpose plus the number of enemies which would tear through someone once they got into melee range are exactly what those weapons are designed to kill. Why have guns that can cause over 8000 points of damage if your using them against stuff that can't quickly kill you anyway? By the very essense the commando is designed to help take down big game as well as being able to deal with lesser enemies with other weapons.
We should not be effected by this modifier and even without it there is no reason to have the weapons equiped within Melee range. This strategy does not account Armor or Medical Skills which would both increase our effectiveness surviving battle.
Oh but we very much are effected, as you have shown in your point time and time again you are not taking the other weapons but the flamer into consideration. Infact you have totally neglected to mention how these weapons can be used with the damage multiplier. I'll tell you how, the only way is with a group of people to distract the enemy or by using a pet. I would expect that from the heavy range support weapons but not from the flamer or the HAR.
But the point is that the x2.5 multiplier is NOT needed, since most of our weapons require you to be kneeing for them to be decently accurate we ALREADY suffer from the usual x2 damage increase from taking a lower stance. So in essense we actually seeing a x5.5 damage increase from using our weapons that are designed for close combat, that kind of explains why I can die in a single hit from enemies that are rated as CL20.
I wasn't claiming we are overpowered now or that we need a nerf.
However, since you brought it up, we might be overpowered in PvE (and btw PvP is not the end all be all of this game) even with the 2.5 mod (which i also hear is being dropped, thereby making this a useless thread). Ever fight with a pet, even non-ch, and flamecone 1??? Am I the only one who is practically invincible?
Now, if they fix the heat resists working on the flame DoT, thats a whole other ballgame.
Zedar
However, since you brought it up, we might be overpowered in PvE (and btw PvP is not the end all be all of this game) even with the 2.5 mod (which i also hear is being dropped, thereby making this a useless thread). Ever fight with a pet, even non-ch, and flamecone 1??? Am I the only one who is practically invincible?
Please re-read your statement...this is not meant as a slam or a flame, but your arguement is that PvE we may be over-powered, then you throw in the use of CH skills...so is it Commando's that are over powered, or Commando's that combine their skills with other Professions that are over-powered...It's a touchy subjuct, whether PvP or PvE to say any profession specifically is Over Powered...When I was a Commando / CH I did feel on occasion invincible, but as soon as I put that pet away and only relyed on my Commando skills I was shown pretty quick how fragile I actually was....Please don't confuse the two issues when talking over-powered...Is a Commando / CH overpowered? possibly..Isa Commando / TKA overpowered? maybe...Is a Commando overpowered? No....absolutely not in any case....The same arguements can be made for just about any profession when combined with another...as in Master CH / Comando Flame Tree...if we say that creates an overpowered player, does that mean Creature Handlers are over powered?
How invincible are you when you don't use any pet??? or for that matter any other professions skills???
Ever fight with a pet, even non-ch, and flamecone 1??? Am I the only one who is practically invincible?
That's the situation with every ranged profession, not just commandos. The same applies to every ranged profession but to different degrees. However the non-ch limitation is being dropped to CL10 soon, that means none of the critters will really exceed 1000 HAM but much so they won't be much of a distraction and they won't have light armor either. And there is another issue here, commando are hybrid profession thus like the commando they need some major benefits, if we cannot use any of our weapons unless supported by a group then we're reduced to nothing more than riflemen who have a higher DPS but need to be closer to the target.