Commando Archive

Anyone hear the new game announced on Lucasarts.com? Looks really cool! Its an RTS set between Episode III and Episode IV...looks very promising.

Units seem to work like in Battle of Middle Earth where its a Batallion rather than individual units...plus theres a Space RTS element...I haven't seen Mon Cal Cruisers in a new SW game for a while now =) Hella cool looking!

Check it out

effin sweet!

The graphics look nice but it's still a RTS game and 2 dimensional. Just pretty graphics. I was reading about this long ago on my subscription of Computer Gaming World (issue with good 'ol Vader on the cover).

RTS essentially are the same in gameplay and after playing C&C: Red Alert, Warcraft 2 and Starcraft, I've seen, experienced, and had enough of them. The more recent ones add a twist or two, but we are still doing the same exact thing... on a still 2-dimensional playing field. The only special thing I see is the use of orbital bombardments from ships and the landings.

But then again, I'm also an avid wargamer. The type of Star Wars wargame I would like to see is the conquest/security of the galaxy as the Empire or the liberation of it as the Alliance. Managing resources, raising & training troops, building shipyards & planetary/space structures. Building warships, trasnports, and starfighters. Improving the planets I have or have taken. Worrying about the local law & order as well as taking care and controlling the population. Do I use a soft-handed approach or do I let the guns of the Imperial Navy keep the peace? Having the crucial Star Wars movie characters as important figures to be used for special purposes. Deploying my forces in space to fight against the opposition. Orbital bombardments and an eventual ground assault. The old Star Wars: Rebellion game tried to do a little bit of this but it was executed quite poorly (an understatement)

There is one other thing that I hate about RTS games: The AI is always horrible from what I have seen, even now. I'm not talking about the AI that controls the opposition. I'm talking about unit AIs. RTS games are only good on small scales. But when there's many units, especially in the numbers I'm interested in, the control of your forces and the AI for it goes down the tubes. Units will stand there until I tell it to specifically do something. I have to give precise waypoints or whatever. To put it simply, you have no subordinates in RTS games. An officer in the field, especially a high ranking one in charge of so many military units, will have subordinates to carry out your INTENT for the mission(s). In a wargame, I just give general orders for whole units to follow. It is up to me to decide who gets what kind of forces and support, and where the main effort is supposed to be. My subordinate officers/wargaming AI will carry out my wishes with the forces alotted to them to the best of their abilities.

Message Edited by Warmaker01 on 01-23-2005 06:14 AM

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RankorCity wrote:

Whats an RTS?

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Real Time Strategy

Command and Conquer series, etc, etc.

Trust me, I removed the unit cap with a mod once - it's a very good thing it's there. My PC is pretty beefy and I think it about died on me, and I just raised it by 50%.

Rome: Total War is a mainstream RTS I can think of with thousands of units by the way, the game is pretty impressive and one of the better RTS's I've played (especially when you factor in the civilzation-esque gameplay that determined when, where, and with what forces battles are fought.) I think the History Channel actually uses it to render big Roman-era battles sometimes.

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Btw anyone know if thats the Sage Engine (correct me if Im wrong, pretty sure thats the engine from C&C Generals)...if it is, looks a hell lot better than Generals, if its not...same

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From what I've read, they built it from scratch (I think EA has the rights to the Sage engine) as there wasn't anything that really let them get both ground and space done quite the way they wanted. I hope they keep the unit emotions from BFME, those were pretty nifty, and added a lot to the atmosphere if nothing else.

Message Edited by StarNick on 01-23-2005 06:37 PM

When I was talking about 2D, I wasn't talking about the perspectives or graphics. What I'm thinking is along these lines for a ground based game as an example:

In the Total War series (I've had them all; Shogun, Medieval, and now Rome) the terrain is 3D. Moving around units seem very much just like traditional RTS/2D gameplay, but you have to take into account many things. Firstly is terrain. Trying to dislodge a tough infantry unit on a hilltop (or worse, mountain) is very difficult. Your men tire as they ascend and the defenders at the top get numerous benefits (defense, morale, etc.). To make matters worse, missile units (i.e. Archers) can reach out further and with deadlier results. Cavalry lose their biggest benefit on steep terrain: Mobility.

Another game series where you need to think a little about the Z-axis are the awesome Combat Mission series (I own them all, too). All 3 games are set in WWII (Overlord / Western Europe, Barbarossa / Eastern Front, and now Afrika Korps / Mediterranean). You have hills, forests, deserts, rivers, bridges, towns, etc. An elevated position naturally gives you a longer, better, field of view. Direct fire weapons can benefit from elevated positions. A quick example are anti-tank guns/tank guns against tanks. All tanks, regardless of how tough and heavy they are, are vulnerable on the top! You can get a gun/cannon that normally can't take out that Panther tank from the front, but give it a good elevated ground and it could kill the Panther from the vulnerable top armor.

Also, urban terrain in the Combat Mission series. Buildings can be multi-levelled. I recall playing against a friend: He was using an American Airborne Company and his mission was to take the town center where my depleted Waffen-SS company were waiting. Lots of nasty house to house fighting, naturally, from 2 elite units. I recall I had a depleted Panzergrenadier squad in hiding on the 2nd floor of this building. My friend had a weakened Airborne platoon clear the houses in the area, but completely forgot to check the floor where my grenadier squad was. Mistake 1. He then, of all things, commences to cross the rather wide street without any of his platoon on overwatch. Mistake 2, and the last mistake this platoon ever made. When his unit was 1/2 the way across the wide street, my single, depleted Panzergrenadier squad opened fire with their MG42, 2 MP40s, and a MP44. Massive casualties inflicted, the platoon was broken, dead & wounded men on the streets. Time to move on to a different location before my buddy tries to exact revenge.

My feeling with MOST RTS games is that it is far too simplified. Terrain isn't a factor as much, other than blocking your way. Elevation does nothing most of the time. As I mentioned in an earlier reply, units tend to sit there unless I specifically tell them to do something all the time. Some RTS games tried to rectify some of these problems. I recall Myth had terrain be a large factor. But the thing that always gets me is the unit AIs.

Now for some Star Wars related stuff...
- I bought Star Wars: Rebellion when it came out in about '97. I loved it but it defenitely had serious issues. The worst was the awful interface. I mean, whoever came up with that interface probably came up with the American IRS Tax Forms. But I loved strategy and I loved Star Wars so much that I repeatedly played the game.

- Star Wars: Force Commander. Yes, I was one of the dozen guys that bought this cr**tacular game. I tried to persevere through it, but once the campaign made my character betray the Empire to be Rebel Scum, I uninstalled immediately. Traiterous somufa... Actually, the only thing that survives this game is the redone Imperial March theme. It really sticks out (good/bad for some). It's too bad, I was really looking forward to that game, too. It had a bit of hype to it also. /fallflatonface

Oh, one last thing I need to get out about the Combat Mission series: It's a turn based game at its core, but here's the best part. At the beginning of each turn, you, the AI, your human opponent, issue your commands to your units/formations. Once both sides have ended their orders, the game goes out in real time for 60 seconds. All the units try their best to carry out your orders and you can only sit there and watch for this 60 second phase. This adds serious tension since you're always wondering if you made the right decision. It's exhilirating to see your plans come to a great success. It's humbling to see entire formations pay the price for bad decisions that you, the incompetent officer, have given them. After the 60 sec timer goes up, it's the next turn's order phase. Repeat. Another thing is that your men aren't suicidal RTS units. Morale is a big factor. You may give that platoon orders to cross the field, but once those MG42s start grazing back and forth across the field, your men might think altogether "Screw you, Lieutenant!" and withdraw.

Message Edited by Warmaker01 on 01-24-2005 08:04 AM

Yeah thats totally different...I can see where you're coming with the TERRAIN being 2D and not so much the game.

Who knows? I don't know if BFME had some "3D" terrain aspects to it, never really noticed it. Even though the Total War and the C&C style games are both RTS', they are two different breeds....one being more realistic (where units tire, and terrain is a factor...essentially a "real war" scenario)...while the other is a bit more complex overall, save for combat. I can imagine how confusing it would be if all the information on your units that is in the Total War games, was in the C&C games. Primarily since you also have a base you need to remember of.

What seems to be cool with EAW...for one Space is 2D they stated, so it won't be confusing (such as the JTL space sector map heh)...but the units themselves will be in a 3D enviroment. After reading through the various articles on the game, EAW seems to be a hybrid of SW: Rebellion and a RTS game...SUPER UBER cool! Despite Rebellion's drawbacks, I really did enjoy that game...as I loved the notion of taking over planets and creating massive space fleets!

Definately gonna be an interesting RTS to play =D