Commando Archive
Thread: New HAM System Coming...
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garvin
Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:49 am
#1
TH posted on it here:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=in_concept&message.id=15154#M15154
It's still pretty early to form a good opinion on the new HAM system until we actually get to try it out...but I thought I'd start a thread to post thoughts and ask questions...if I don't know the answer or it is something you'd like me to report back, I absolutely will take it back to the devs...
Basically to sum it up, they are proposing a new "Special Abilities" Layer be added to our HAM bars...Using specials will no longer effect your Health, Action or Mind, but instead, special bars...hence, you won't kill yourself using specials...As you receive damage that causes your Health, Action, and/or Mind to decrease, so will the "Special Abilities" layers, but that special layer will regen at a faster rate...The new Special Abilities Layer will NOT be healable like the HAM during battle and must be given time to regen.
I see some definite Pro's and Con's already to this idea even before testing...
Pro:
Currently when we use something like our Grenades, they have a high HAM cost and can do us damage...this typically leads us to killing ourselves because we compound the damage done to our HAM...This new system would remove one of those damaging effects (the drain on HAM using the Grenades) and if we get our fix to make Genades not damage the user, there will be NO DRAIN on our HAM...this goes for our other Consumables as well that have radius effects...
Con:
Many of our Weapons, with the exception of the FT, have high HAM costs currently...This could translate into high "Special Abilities" Layering costs...Using a weapon like the HAR in combination with Grenades or something else with a high drain rate could lead to quick depletion of the "Special Abilities" Layer leaving us without the ability to use a special during a critical moment in combat...Currently we can, if you have novice medic, heal our HAM during a fight if it get's to low to use a special...this new method means we have to wait for the regen (which is suppose to be quicker then normal HAM regain) to go back up...
Those are just 2 things I've noticed so far for Pro Vs. Con...I'm sure more will come to mind later...and especially when we get to start testing out this new change...It could be great, it could be horrible, but at least it shows the devs are trying to improve things...and change is good...
Overall, I'm feeling very optimistic about this change in regards to it's effects on Commandos...
Thoughts,Opinions, Questions or Rants?
Darth_me
Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:56 am
#2
I do like the idea. I always hated to aft to heal myself because I was using specials. Even with the ability to heal a HAM pool so you can do more specials I sill like the specials bar idea more.
Question:
Will being buffed (Doc or Food) affect the specials bar?
Question:
Will being buffed (Doc or Food) affect the specials bar?
Message Edited by Darth_me on 07-23-2004 09:34 PM
TKA-MC
Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:24 am
#3
I like the special abilities HAM bar, it's a good idea. Let me expound upon this a bit. Lets say as you progress through a profession you get additions to your "Speacial bar", AND, lets say after this bar is drained we then start to eat into heal/action bars----with the addition of some added penalties for lets say speed/accuracy. I like this idea. Originally when I saw the post I thought it was addressing the 400k HAM's we have all come to LOVE, I would like to see that also incorrperated in the CB revamp.
Dysinn Rahl (Gorath) Master Commando/TKM
Dysinn Rahl (TC) Noob.
"This is my BOOM STICK!"
Skeptic666
Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:37 am
#4
I see bad things come of this. O no another nail in the coffin 
We will see. But I have a feeling this is going to hurt us.
We will see. But I have a feeling this is going to hurt us.
Syzygy-Gorath
Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:42 am
#5
I suppose it really depends on how the "specials" HAM drain is calculate and how quickly it regenerates…this could be good for us given the relatively slow speed of our primary weapon's special attacks.
StarNick
Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:19 am
#6
Its a good idea, but I don't like how the special abilities bars will always be taking damage....personally speaking this is bad, and probably will be a nightmare of bugs....
Also, just popped in my head...you know special shots such as like Disarming shot? that doesnt disarm? or crippling shot that doesnt cripple? (yet is very powerful!)....what if some weapon specials have the ability to target BOTH ham and ability bars? To me this would be a bit better than having everything hit and damage those bars, and prolly make PvP a bit more balanced without hindering PvE....just a thought
But I also like the idea of having 1 special abilities bar, and tie everything into that...which can be expanded as you -master- professions or buy upgrades etc etc...
Nevertheless, I wouldn't want to have to concentrate on another 3 bars (or Bars within Bars) as much as the HAM because If they drop to Zero I know im incapacitated/dead....having 6 things taking damage at once in one box will confuse people...
Combat_Medic_to_be
Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:52 am
#7
Was going to try and explain it myself but Tregaurd has done it for me in TH's thread...
Here's the way it works, as I understand it, take your person with 100 Health, 100 Action, 100 Mind. He does a special move that costs 15/5/5.
You now have 100 health, 100 action, 100 mind, but a special potential of 85 health, 95 action, 95 mind.
If you then take a 10/10/10 hit, you have 90 health, 90 action, 90 mind; with a special potential of 75/85/85
If a doctor healed 10 health, you'd then have 100/90/90, with a 75/85/85 special
I love this idea, with mind damage being healable with stims when this is implemented combat should hopefully involve health and action a bit more! its got my support...
Yoda2397
Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:05 pm
#8
All I can say is that I've never really liked the HAM in general. It is very complex, which causes a lot of problems. So if they fix one problem with it, it can create other problems thatwe didn't foresee (i.e., in beta,doctors having no HAM penalties since they can heal all three pools). Also, a lot of it doesn't make sense to me. Can I really hit something with a flamethrower and have it only affect the target's mind? That just doesn't seem right to me. And then the next shot will damage health or something. Honestly, how can your mind to be affected by a flamethrower and not your health?? I think it would have been easier, simpler, (perhaps) better if they had simply made the mind pool, when at 0, not incapacitate you.Now you can't do your special moves or heal, but you are not dead. One is still motivated to attack the mind, so that the enemy can't use specials, but it doesn't over empower someone who does simplythe best mind damage.
The proposal for a fix to the HAM seems to contradict the whole concept that even having an "action pool." My understanding was that the action pool represented your ability to, well, perform actions. Now the action pool has become simply a second health pool because your ability to do special actions are now going to begoverned by a separateindependent special action pool.
Wouldn't it have just been easier to make it so that the health pool is what represents your life, your action pool represent special actions, and your mind pool represents your ability to heal or boost your health and action? This would work if the action and mind pools wouldn't incapacitate you when empty. They would regenerate at an appropriate rate, perhaps depending on your armor, buffs, or food.
I don't think these are all the answers, by any means. Just what popped into my head, I guess. But right now, they are planning on taking a super complex HAM and making it more complicated. This makes the real nervous. With the new pools, what role does the old action pool have?
TKA-MC
Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:25 pm
#9
Yoda has a very strong argument. I am inclined to agree with him. But I can see it now when we inquire further into the issue "this will be address by the CB Revamp"--signed unknown. Initially it's a good idea, in the sense that it is something new, and it would let the community know that something is being looked at combat wise that will effect everyone. BAH!
Raptor2k1
Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:55 pm
#10
I liked what I read myself. It makes using secial abilities more like a 'mana' or 'endurance' pool rather than using up hitpoints, which seems much more logical to me.
Plus, this will encourage combat tactics that are not related to spamming your best special, which is definately a good thing.
Message Edited by Raptor2k1 on 07-23-2004 01:56 PM
SuperTurbo
Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:44 pm
#11
Can someone bring Yoda's suggestion to the attention of the Developers?
I think he's onto something. I like the simiplified idea. (My take/expansion on his thoughts):
Attacks on the mind pool affects the regen rate of the health and action pool
Attacks on the action pool affects the ability to special attacks.
Armor encumbrance will physicall cap the limit of the mind pool, limiting action and regen of the health and action pool.
Carbineers would still be crowd control wiht their special attacks. They limit the attacking enemy's ability to conduct specials.
Rifleman would still be the feared sniper with their special attacks. They destroy the enemy's ability to regen health and action (cower in fear)
Pistoleers would simply focus on the health.
Commando special would put wounds on all 3 bars.
Helmets would provide protection to limit the amount of damage the mind pool would take, but it would cap/limit the mind and action pool.
Chest plate would provide protection to limit the amount of damage the health pool would take (thus making chest plates critical), and limit the action pool.
I can see a system like that making it such that there would be few people left with full up armor
SinjenRandall
Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:08 pm
#12
Combat_Medic_to_be wrote:
You now have 100 health, 100 action, 100 mind, but a special potential of 85 health, 95 action, 95 mind.
If you then take a 10/10/10 hit, you have 90 health, 90 action, 90 mind; with a special potential of 75/85/85
If a doctor healed 10 health, you'd then have 100/90/90, with a 75/85/85 special
If this is really the way it works, it does worry me. Lets say I am down low on health, but it is all damage. I have not been spamming specials. My "Special Action Pool" is now also low. When I am healed, my special action pool is still low?If this is the case, I am basically getting apenalty to a pool that hasn't been "damaged" or used.
As it stands now, if I take damage but don't do any to myself (via specials) and am healed, I am then immediately ready to perform a special action. The way this other method sounds, if you are correct, is that I can refrain from performing a special the entire fight and potentially never have enough "Special Action Pool" to perform a special when I need to the most.
This soundslike you get two penalties for taking damage! How exactly is this supposed to help anything besides prevent me from literally incapacitating myself with my own specials?
If it truly is a pool for specials, then why not make it separate from Health, Action, or Mind, but dependant upon inherent secondary stats? i.e. to prevent unlimited special action pool, make it only based on your character's unbuffed secondaries?
Kalano
Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:36 pm
#13
I am postive there is a few bugs or things to be worked out before they impliment such a system, ie: TC.
I think it is a great system. Here is why. If you were in a real life fight (yes i know, i am using RL in a non-RL world, but hear me out) your physical abilities diminish with damage. you get hit in the arm with bullet, your arm isin intense pain and your ability to do anything with your arm is now greatly dimished. Or, you get your leg hack almost off by a sword, your not going to be doing a lot of serious high kicks to your enemy now will you.
Ok, now on to my point. The damage in the black bar is the bullets to the arm and the hacks to the legs. That is permenent damage till it is healed by a doc. Your specails pool is now deminished to that point since you will not be able to physically perform to your full abilities with major physical damage.
With the normal regend damage, they are like scratches, spranged ankles, dirt in the eye, easly healable and nothing really slowing you down to much, but it does cause you to slow down some. That also affects your specails, but as soon as they are healed up or regended back, your specails regen back to the same level.
I is almost exactly the same system as we have now, but just seperating your HAM that incaps you and puts a specails HAM that will not cause you to incap with specials spam. So pistolleers, Caribineers, and Commandos will not kill themselves with there own weapons. That is just plain rediculous. The new system will be a good thing.
As for those who are nervious, you been that way with everything the devs say or do, i worry about your blood pressure. Not all changes are bad, and not all decisions were intended to flop and scare you. Remember, it is a game, not life (YES, IT IS NOT LIFE, YOU WILL NOT DIE WITHOUT SW:G! TRUST ME!), take a minor break and play another game for a week and you will feel much better. Everything will turn out ok in time. SOE spent way to much money to let the game flop just yet, Lucas Arts i'm sure charges an arm and 2 legs from Sony's CEO's for the SW tittle rights.
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