Commando Archive
Thread: Wounds are you friend...
OK I am once again going to post some info here... maybe a little more indepth than before but here it goes.
WOUNDS
Wounding is a tactic like any other. It is what takes people out of PvP combat and forces down time. People should be inflicting wounds on people as often as possible. Some one comming into your town over and over...? Flame em or get a combat Medic to wound them.
The fundimental problem I am seeing here is not that the wound system is broken. It is that people refuseto use it as a tool the wayit should be. Lay those wounds on people who come back in combat over and over. Build camps outside of towns and bases your attacking to keep wounded players healed in the field against your enemies. Learn to expect camps like this and hunt them down. Keep wounding every one in Anchorhead who fights you over and over till the doctors run out of medications and resistanceto you collapses. The best fighter in the world is only as good as the support he receives in combat... if that support is non- existant and you have the supportto remain in the field, you win inspite of his fighting skills.
Failure to use the tactics available to you does not constitute griefing on my part. You must adapt to combat... combat support even at a basic lvl is elementary. People can and will use it against you. You shoud be tryingto keep your best fighters in the field of combat just as hard as your enemy is tryingto remove them from the field. If you are not you will lose. Adapt and be flexable ot win. I see too much "Scream and Leap" style combat in PvP right now. Explore other avenues to achieving your goals. I have seen ambushes at rebel bases kill 4 or 5 Imperials at a time... ambushes staged by a single rifleman. Once again he planned his position and took his enemy by suprise and killed them in a matter of seconds. Tactics win it or lose it.
Most ofthe people I see complaining about wounding are doing so because it takes them out of PvP when they just want ot kill kill kill. They are probably very good fighters but without support they are toastand they know it. Mostly people want ot change the system so it works in their favor. Can you blame them?...But by the same token should you permit them to do so?
TEF's
If we want ot change the revenge TEF system we need ot propose a few changes that can replace it. It serves a functon in game and unless you can see a way around that it would probably be better to leave it in place.
I am open ot sugestions if any one has any... Untill then my only solution is justto heap wounds on a person till they can no longer funciton in combat and can't comeback to haunt you. Once again a valid tactic same as say Knockdown. Use it when it is called for.
Aasch Housewares
For some reason that Rifleman you are referring to sounds familiar 
I agree with Aasch that tactics can mean, life and death, win and loss. I like to take the more tactical, stealthy approach when it comes to pvp, and not the "scream and leep" method. Not only is it more effective, but being stealthy in battle is just appealing to me.
Pretty good explanation on the wounds. Unfortunately people think commandos do way more then their fair share. Since the burn dot does alot and the HAR has 40% chance to wound, it really isn't surpriseing that commandos dish out the wounds. It actually looks like they are meant to along with the CMs. Still you raise excellent points.
However I still don't see a reason for the Revenge TEF, if keeping people out of a battle they lost is the point, then why is it there? It allows for 1 free shot for the killed, and commandos only NEED 1 shot. Commandos are takeing advantage of this by useing the "scream and leap" attack, they charge into the fray and fry everyone they can, when they die they need only walk up to the clustered enemys and unload a cone of blazeing furry and theres absalutely nothing the bunched up rebels can do except scatter and run...
hehe yea I knowTEF revengeis being taken advantage of but...the point really is not ot keep them out ofthe battle...it is to make it optional as to if they want back in or not.
They had ot make cloning in Overt impossible because ofthe potential for people to camp clone centers. If you put in a delay or anything like that it is more or less like "follow till your delay is off" clone camping. They had ot make it at the discresion of hte person who is cloning as to if they wanted to re-enter combat. Clone centers were the choke point of PvP and the developers took steps to ensure that would not be true...
If we removethe revenge TEFsystem then you will haveto gofind aFaction Recruiterto become overt again if you want to fight again. And that is at the moment kind of a pain... who ever was defending a city with their faction recruiters inside has a huge huge advantage... ditto with bases. And it will only encourage peple to camp the faction recruiters in each city to ensure victory over that citys in habitants if invaders do get an edge in the fighting. Suddenly faction recruiters take hte place of clone centers as the choke point of PvP...abet to a lesser degree.
So there needs to be some kind of floating system that makes creating choke points like this impossible and that doesn't give the defenders huge advantages to begin with. That is what i am challenging people to come up with.
Think of hte game in terms of what facilities in a city you can control to get an advantage... even for instance on a planetary scale. For instance Star Ports... if you can camp people in all the star ports on a planet...particularly a planet like LoK... you have strangled all access to the planet. With the lag people have comming into a Star port they never have a chance and have to clone in near by with a ton of wounds right off the bat... and you can prevent people from leaving also unless they have the firepower to break your blockade. Couple of At-ST's parked in a few star ports and your half way there.
In a city station a few people at each shuttle/star port and a few at the local faction recruiterto prevent easy reinforcment. That way if they come in Overt or Covert they are in trouble either way...particularly if you use weapons with heavy woudning potential so they will come back with revenge TEF but a lot of wounds. Use wound dots on them and leave them long enough so they have to seek medical help before they can join hte fighting when they do get DB'd.
Or a base... most have one enterence. Once you start destroying the base leave guards at the enterence and control hte access point to prevent reinforcing. Just pull inside the walls and make your oponents come to you while setting up a cross fire inside the enterance. This is the sort of job where combined arms of melee and ranged professions could be put ot excellent use... forcing people into close combat against melee classes in those tiny courtyards to get in.
Just is just a few basic principals. It would require diciplined troops who have an understanding of their jobs but with well organized people this would not really be that hard. Once you start to think this way some of hte PvP set up starts to make sense. Or it is just a fluke that the Developers put in some unintended checks and balances? You be the judge on that one. But it might make you rethink what you want changed and how you want those changes implimented.
Most of this should be on a tactics discussion board but since it came up here I went ahead and answered.
Aasch Housewares
"Give me some sugar baby."
You know some times I think I write these posts and no one ever reads them LOL...
... is what I am saying so wrong that people are just ignoring me or do people just not want to hear this kind of thing? Would they rather find out the hard way when my guild and I start using these tactics? We have not needed ot yet becuase we have not encountered a challange that requires it... but that doesn't mean we have not thought about it and are not ready to use this stuff.
Oh well... mostly just wondering if any one is reading this.
Aasch Housewares
"Groovy."
Aasch wrote:
If we want ot change the revenge TEF system we need ot propose a few changes that can replace it. It serves a functon in game and unless you can see a way around that it would probably be better to leave it in place.
I fail to see what purpose Revenge TEF has in PVP, other then to allows someone whos killed a cheap shot, and give them the opportunity to clone spam in places such as talus.
Example:
Rebel Master BH decides to come to Talus and kill imperials after cloning there. He is killed immediatly after he is found to be overt. Clones and rushes back out. No one is able to attack him until he decides to start a fight. He kills a faction pet and is then killed himself. Repeat this 3 more times until he eventually kills me.
His risk? -33 faction or so per death. He died four times for -396 faction. My risk? 3 lost ST commandos at 417 per and -33 faction or so for the death making the total -1284.
Who won there and why? He died 4 times to me (and several others) yet I still took a lose of 1284 faction from pets and my one death. That's not even counting other pets he managed to kill before being killed himself. This is just one example of how Revenge TEF causes a gross imbalance in combat and breaks the risk vs reward of the galactic civil war.
The point is that dying in PVP should NEVER EVER be an advantage. That is the problem with Revenge TEF. There doesnt need to be a system to replace it. You should return to the nearest clone center as either overt or covert, not covert with the ability to attack anyone you wish at will. Anything less is unrealistic, unfair and unbalanced.
Thank you,
~Cero Paxandrus, Imperial Commando
Radiant
Aasch wrote:
We need something that lets us re-enter combat as is. The Revenge TEF is what is in place to do that right now... it is being exploited thought so we all agree that we need somthing better...
Now the question is what?
Why do you need a way to immeditatly re-enter combat? All that leads to is a constantly flow of freshly killed people who swarm defenders that dont have the chance to heal or recover. As it stands right now the penalties for death, pvp or pve, are nill. There is ZERO reason not to die over, and over, and over in order to accomplish a goal.
Death SHOULD be, in some way, penelized. If that means you need to run back to town from the last friendly place you cloned, so be it. If it means you cant pvp again until you go see your faction recruiter, then so be it. Defenders should have an advantage (close recruiters, ease of cloning,) because if they didnt there's no logical reason that their city (or other held objective) wouldnt be taken.
If you die, that means you've lost. Losing needs to have a penalty associated with it or those that "win" will never see any advantage. As it stands now, the combination of needing to death blow fallen foes to get ANY factional reward and the revenge tef means that it is only a matter of time before a succesful defender needs to flee or is killed by masses of freshly cloned, full health enemies. Not only will they be over-run, but they will get ZERO advantage or reward for their succesful defense. How is that fair and equitable and how is that fun? It makes PVP a pointless cycle of death and cloning with no winner and no loser.
Thank you,
~Cero Paxandrus, Imperial Commando
Radiant
Here's my solution, i believe that the TEF rule should stay, there is no way around it. No one can seem to think of a better idea to keep people from camping particular areas of the city. The change that i think should be made is that a player should recieve a larger amount of wounds when they die. Something like 1/8 of their HAM's should be black.Everytime they die, the wounds would stack up. This way, they would be less and less effective in battle. Until they would eventually have to quit and heal their wounds. This way, an invading force could actually get the feeling of winning a battle or the defending force could effectively turn away an assult. This is something that you never quite get the way that the game is now; its impossible for an invading force to occupy a town for any length of time.
Raiden - Radiant Galaxy
OK read the second post please...
IF some one comes back Overt they get clone camped. It happened in Beta...it will happen here. Heck it even happens in guild wars already since you clone in with your guild tag in place already...people sit at the clone tubes and kill you while you load.
IF you come back Covert then it is a bit better but...your out of the fight perminantly more or less. You have to run back to your faction recruiter to go overt again so you cna join the fight... you can't suttle back Overt you will die before you load. Have to run back. Lots of wasted time and your enemy defending a city that has their faction recruiters cna just die over and over ot stop you... it is effectivly the end of PvP at places like Anchorhead. Imperials can never take the city unless they cna find a way to camp the faction recruiters and then you just have clone camping all over again... Again this is better than cloning in Overt but it still sucks.
We need something that lets us re-enter combat as is. The Revenge TEF is what is in place to do that right now... it is being exploited thought so we all agree that we need somthing better...
Now the question is what?
Aasch Housewares
"Groovy."
Perhaps for PvP and the revenge TEF we could instead have a dialog option that allows you to decide after coming back to be overt or covert.
I think this is the best suggestion I've heard. Add to this a very short immunity timer which should random from 1-2 mins.
The reason I ask for a random timer is that with a static time (always 1 min, always 5 mins) people can do the same thing they do now. Get into the perfect position at optimal range with the most amount of targets and wait for the timer to pass. If its random they would be better served to take cover, since coming out of covert will be less easy to manipulate.
I really like that idea a lot, I think its a good compromise.
Someone mentioned deathblows... I LOATH deathblows. Not so much the fact that you incap before death, but that ALL of the reward for pvp is tied to who gets to the corpse the fastest and uses a radial menu. Its very unfair. Faction rewards for PVP should be treated just like exp for pve. He/She who does the most damage reaps the most rewards. Everyone that asissts gets something.
That would prevent the corpse vultures. A few nights ago in theed, I ran into a big clump of rebels near the shuttle. Flamecones at least 4 of them then chucked a grenade at the rest. Chaos ensued as people ran around on fire dying. I saw at least 3 people drop before I had to run for cover. Guess how much faction I got?
Nothing. Another imp ran up to get the death blows. That's unblanced and unfair.
Thank you,
~Cero Paxandrus, Imperial Commando
Cero
The main reason not ot have a solution like this is all i have to do really to defeat a city is camp it's faction recruiters... it gives the defenders a massive advantage... unless you are willing ot just sit at their faction recruiters for horus killing anyone who goes overt.
Once again you have created a combat choke point that you have ot use ot gain any sort of advantage. Suddenly your game is about controling the faction recruiter. And should the Rebels get smart...go overt in another town... then come back... you can never hold a city that does not contain one of your faction recruiters. You might hold out for a while but the inability to clone near by will be the death of you... any even slight edge your enemies get will be amplified ten fold by your inability ot clone anywhere near by.
Also you have simply shifted the penalty for death ot always be on the part of the attacker... the defender is not hampered by death in any way. Now there is no reason ot ever attack Anchorhead under this system. You will never win or even hold out for any length of time... why even bother? Any tactics you use will be countered byzerg tactics by the other side.
In a situation like this wounding would help but in the end the effects of having faction recruiters in a town would be telling no matter how much each side used any kind of valid tactic.
But that was a well worded argument...my hats off too you.
The current TEF system is massivly broken in the face of classes like combat medic...rifleman...carbineer...commando... just to name a few. They have the ability ot come backand extract such massive revenge with impunity that it is clear somthing has to change. And I suspect that changing the classees themselves will not be the answer.
So far the best I cna come up with is the timer system... but if you let people just go overt at will you will have the same trouble your having currently...people will jsut go find the guy who killed them...target them...put their hand over Flamecone2 hot key... and click themselves Overt. Heck they do't' even have to find the guy who killed them it could be any one from the opposing faction. I like the felxablity a dialog box would give you it has too much optential for abuse still I think.
This is not a simple problem with a simple answer. Please keep hte ideas comming and maybe wwe can find some kind of solution that has not been thought of before... or at least not postted before.
Aasch Housewares
"Groovy."