CUEmu - Thread Posts

Mild-Breeze-Trooper

Fri Mar 05, 2004 8:54 am

Ok, please bear with me now. I'm thinking along as I write so this suggestion will undoubtedly have quite a few quirks and buggs from the start.
I tend to rant and be rather longish, so please excuse me for that. Do try to read all of the post before flaming though. Constructive critizism is appreciated.

I am a MCM, I have not been for very long and I do not PvP much to speak of but I do resent all these cries for nerfage of the CM profession. However, i recognize the complains that comes from other players and wonder how this situation can be best remedied without simply destroying the CMs as a class.

Ok, if we start with the complaints about Combat Medic, disregarding bugs:

1) Combat Medic is overpowered!

2) Combat Medic does 1200 wounds per second!

3) Diseases are way to disruptive to the game.

4) Targeting the unhealable Mind Pool is too powerfull

5) Poisons do more damage than any other DOT in the game.

6) AOE poisons and diseases are way to powerfull

7) Combat Medics are a SUPPORT class and supposed to spend an equal ammount of skill points as Commando to toss stims, and be broke all the time since there is no way to earn money as a Combat Medic.

The solution that has been proposed by the player community in general goes along the lines of:
"Nerf damage output to 75%, remove AOE attacks and stick #7 on the forhead of any Combat Medic that tries to argue."

Ok, there is probably more things to gripe about but I think I collected the most essential ones.

Replies to these would be, in order:

1) No, combat medic has a relatively low DPS that is compensated by the fact that we have a "Fire and forget" quality to our weapons. But compared to any other master combat profession it is low, even if you count eventual misses. And to some extend even counting armor. Furthermore resists are in play and I suggest trying out these before complaining about CM power. If resists are to low and not functioning correctly then that is an issue with resists and should be remedied by fixing resists and increasing resist avaiability.

2) No, 1200 is a number more commonly associated with damage. And even then it is the result of using extremely rare loots and high quality resources. Besides poison ticks only once every 10 seconds.
Wounds would tick once every 40 seconds and the number of wounds (although high on really wicked diseases) will be much lower than that of poisons.

3) You are probably right. Getting a disease and not being able to cure it will set you back for quite some time while you find a doctor or entertainer to fix you up. We'll see what can be done about that.

4) Combat medics of course is not the only profession that targets mind. Still I agree that this is a problem and something should be done about it. Rumours have it that something is being done about it and mind will be healable when the combat revamp that is in progress is completed. In the meantime there are a number of things you can do to heal your mind allready. Try diffrent foods for instance. Reports have been made of Aitha that heals up to 600+ of mind in one gulp. This requires no skill to use. Also try to buff your mind as thoroughly as you buff your body.

5) Yes, they do. Every other DOT in the game do instant damage on "hit" though, to compensate for this. DOTs are also the only attacks avaiable to the Combat Medic without branching into other professions.

6) Well, really this is mostly a problem with lack of AOE cures and players clustering up But I agree that it should be solved in some way.

7) Please don't post here anymore.

Ok so far so good.

So what can be done if the consensus that Combat Medics are to powerfull right now is reached between the playerbase and the developers. Obviously a 75% nerf is the most stupid solution you could come up with, so we'll try another angle.

Poison damage

Now, I don't want poison damage in PvP to change. Unless the combat revamp brings with it a complete stop for spamming the DPS is rather balanced in PvP. The solution here is twofold thoug.
Make sure poison resists work. Allow poison resists to go as high as 75% (wich in turn should be counterable by the CM by sacrificing "poison damage" for "chance to stick") I'd say 25% tapes, 25-30% food and 40% resistance buffs (appliable by combat medics, to give the class a viable economics that it sorely lacks) with a cap at 75% resitance. (These figures might be debatable, but this is just a draft)

The second part to the solution is education. Every time a poison hits but is resisted the message "You have resisted an attempt at poisoning you" should be displayed in the center of the screen where SL messages are displayed. This would help people notice that their resistance actually works. (Maybe the potency of the poison should also be displayed so players can do comparison)

Please bear in mind that poison resist is total negation of not only the poisoning attack but also each subsequent attack of that poison (each tick as it is). This differs highly from the way armor works, and that should be taken into mind when designing poison resistance.

Diseases

No other attack in the game, as far as I'm aware, causes all damage to convert into wound this makes diseases highly powerfull albeit slow in the working. I've been beaten in PvP before the 40 seconds had even ended which resulted in the TKM simply siting down and meditating my poison away without it ever hurting him.

Diseases will be countered in a big way by implementing effective resistances and the resist message should be displayed here as well.

Still a mass area disease is a terrible thing that will shorten any fight where there are not enough doctors to cure it.

A possible solution to this would be to change the way diseases work.

Keep the 40 second tick

Increase the damage done by diseases.

Set the amount of wounds done by each tick to a variable. ie If a disease tick hits for 500 that should be a damage of 500. Each of those 500 points of damage has a (let's say) 30% chance of converting into a wound averaging about 150 wounds and 350 points of damage.
This would probably require a bit of re-balancing between poisons and diseases but it might at least dampen the most horrible effects of diseases.
To compensate diseases should be allowed to incap. (tripple incap from diseases should however not lead to automatic DB)

Poison stacking:

I don't know much about poison stacking (even if it's in or out), but I'm prepared to listen to arguments about it. Generally speaking though I would like to se a maximum of one poison and one disease per bar on the HAM. if for nothing else so at least for simplicity. Revamping diseases along the lines I suggested would work towards compensating this.

AOE poisons and AOE diseases:
These are commonly regarded by Non CM:s as having a game breaking effect. That particular point is debatable, however debating it has proven fruitless. This suggestion works with the assumtion that the complaints will register and tries to give us an alternative. An easy counter would be allowing AOE cures.

While this is an viable option I would like to point out an other way.
Remove AOE damage poisons and AOE damage diseases

Replace them with AOE state inflicing chemicals.

(whether there should be single shot State inflicts as well is left up for debate)
Primarily I would like there to be a complete set of states

Blindness, Dizzy, Intimidate, Stun (Bleed and fire would be silly and they are just DOT:s anyway) have I forgotten any?
I can understand that there might be some protests against an AOE dizzy but hey, Carbineers get it in publish 7.

Cures for this ought to include a small area cure for doctors say a radius of 5-8 meters from the doctor using the cure. Maybe single shot ranged cures for Combat Medics.
(That we don't have state cures is in itself ludicrous, if we are supposed to have any defensive function in a battle state cures is the least we should get)

A AOE movement inhibitor could also be a viable option. a 10 seconds forced walk on anyone inside the AOE. Of course curable just like any other state.

Now, this ended up as a lot of text. Let's just look it over and debate flaws and merits in the suggestions and then rework it into something more easily read, what do you guyssay about that?

Carbicide: "The victimless crime!"
BTW Yes it is true, I've tested it myself, poison only ticks once every TEN seconds!
"I lead with my intellect, wits, example and the big nasty gun that I use to shoot everyone who doesn't follow my orders"
Rennec Bibo, proud owner of some sort of carbine since november 2003.

Mild-Breeze-Trooper

Fri Mar 05, 2004 9:15 am

#2

Sorry, forgot to put my pet project in there.

Increase the PvE damage for poisons and diseases. Ideally I'd like the PvE damage to be quadruppled. But just making it double or tripple damage would be fine by me.

Carbicide: "The victimless crime!"
BTW Yes it is true, I've tested it myself, poison only ticks once every TEN seconds!
"I lead with my intellect, wits, example and the big nasty gun that I use to shoot everyone who doesn't follow my orders"
Rennec Bibo, proud owner of some sort of carbine since november 2003.

buzzz187

Fri Mar 05, 2004 9:40 am

#3

Okay to clear up the issue here, CM's ARE OVERPOWERED in PvP. With them in the game there IS NO PvP, and all you hear around you is, "Im goin CM, screw this" or "Thats it, Doctor hear I come". Its a sad state of affair when the game we're allstill dedicated to,bug after bug, is actually beingPLAYED byMedics. Granted its a coolthing that a support class is finally getting its hayday, but lets be honest with ourselves, CM is still supposed to be a support class with a lil extra UMPH tocombat. As it is nowcombat classes are the extra UMPH to CM's, and Docs are just the Anti-CM.

RCS37

Fri Mar 05, 2004 9:48 am

#4

Ok here is my issue with you you say you don’t pvp that much and I’m sure in pve cm seems very balanced; however, in pvp it a completely different story.

When we say a 75% reduction it’s important to remember that’s only in PVP in PVE go ahead hit banthas with 500-600 point mind poisons that’s about normal for pve but not for pvp.

Second I think this is getting fixed but cm’s should have there range caped at 64 meters I don’t think to many people disagree with that.

Third isn’t that big of a issue to me but it just feels wrong that cm’s get the same terrain navigation as a master scout without having to have any scouting exp, however this is not that important and I really don’t care. Just feels like a slap in the face to us that master scout and or ranger professions.

Now I know that a poison that’s over 1k dmg is very rare I don’t think I’ve ever seen one that’s powerful but its very common to see poisons that do 500-600 dmg to the mind that is simply to much dmg in pvp.

Also while you may say poisons can be resisted I have never seen anyone able to resited a good cm’s poison I’m sure many newb cm’s may have there poisons resisted but master cm’s packing the good stuff as far as poisons are concerned never miss and are never resisted in my experience.

I know this point of view isn’t popular with this community but seriously the cm profession is overpowered making these simple changes will only effect pvp and cm will be able to focus more on what your should be focusing on being a medic using ranged area stims and so forth not being the equivalent of a artillery profession that launches these powerful long range attacks.

S y m p s o n

Mild-Breeze-Trooper

Fri Mar 05, 2004 9:50 am

#5

Yes, I feel that was rather constructive input.

So what do you suggest doing about the fact that Combat Medics are "too powerfull"? I'm open to new ideas.

Carbicide: "The victimless crime!"
BTW Yes it is true, I've tested it myself, poison only ticks once every TEN seconds!
"I lead with my intellect, wits, example and the big nasty gun that I use to shoot everyone who doesn't follow my orders"
Rennec Bibo, proud owner of some sort of carbine since november 2003.

Mild-Breeze-Trooper

Fri Mar 05, 2004 9:52 am

#6

Sorry rcs37 my reply was meant for buzz187. (right now I seem to be responding to you)

Carbicide: "The victimless crime!"
BTW Yes it is true, I've tested it myself, poison only ticks once every TEN seconds!
"I lead with my intellect, wits, example and the big nasty gun that I use to shoot everyone who doesn't follow my orders"
Rennec Bibo, proud owner of some sort of carbine since november 2003.

Mild-Breeze-Trooper

Fri Mar 05, 2004 10:06 am

#7

Ok, now it's your turn.

RCS37 wrote:
Ok here is my issue with you you say you don’t pvp that much and I’m sure in pve cm seems very balanced; however, in pvp it a completely different story.

When we say a 75% reduction it’s important to remember that’s only in PVP in PVE go ahead hit banthas with 500-600 point mind poisons that’s about normal for pve but not for pvp.

And when you say a 75% reduction you fail to notice that poisons have a comparably low DPS allready. 75% reduction would put the poisonDPS down to levels where it simply no longer mattered. Allmost allCombat Medics (who are the one who use poisons and know about their tick) agree on this.

Second I think this is getting fixed but cm’s should have there range caped at 64 meters I don’t think to many people disagree with that.

I never said I disagreed with that. I did leave it out because it is being fixed and I didn't want to waste time debating about a bug. But yes. Poison range should be capped at 64 meters. Furthermore I think we could cap AOE range at a much lower range due to it being more powerfull. So that the furthest edge of the AOE ends up at 64 meters. So I agree with you on that.

Third isn’t that big of a issue to me but it just feels wrong that cm’s get the same terrain navigation as a master scout without having to have any scouting exp, however this is not that important and I really don’t care. Just feels like a slap in the face to us that master scout and or ranger professions.

Well if we get some loving in other areas I'll be happy to lower terrain neg for combat medics. BTW the reverse could be used. It's a slap in the face that scouts have the same terrain neg as CM:s when scout require no combat experience to learn. We have the Terr Neg so that we more easily can get arround in combat and help our friends.

Now I know that a poison that’s over 1k dmg is very rare I don’t think I’ve ever seen one that’s powerful but its very common to see poisons that do 500-600 dmg to the mind that is simply to much dmg in pvp.

Well that remain to see. The Combat Revamp (which probably will turn out a big disapointment when we all have stood chanting "The Combat Revamp will change everything, just wait and see!") might very well change that. In the meantime. Stock up on mind healing foods, buff well and spice it up.

Also while you may say poisons can be resisted I have never seen anyone able to resited a good cm’s poison I’m sure many newb cm’s may have there poisons resisted but master cm’s packing the good stuff as far as poisons are concerned never miss and are never resisted in my experience.

Well now, a Master Combat Medic should be able to make poisons that are extremely hard to resist. Just like a Master Bounty Hunter should get all thoze snazzy specials you boys have, don't you think?
The resists are probably not tweaked right just yet. But that is, as so many of us here on the forum are fond of saying, a problem with resists. Not with poison damage.

I know this point of view isn’t popular with this community but seriously the cm profession is overpowered making these simple changes will only effect pvp and cm will be able to focus more on what your should be focusing on being a medic using ranged area stims and so forth not being the equivalent of a artillery profession that launches these powerful long range attacks.

What the CM profession is supposed to be is a debatable matter. Suffice to say we have had poisons right from the start, it is quite possible that we were intended to have them and that they were intended as weapons.

Carbicide: "The victimless crime!"
BTW Yes it is true, I've tested it myself, poison only ticks once every TEN seconds!
"I lead with my intellect, wits, example and the big nasty gun that I use to shoot everyone who doesn't follow my orders"
Rennec Bibo, proud owner of some sort of carbine since november 2003.

RCS37

Fri Mar 05, 2004 10:23 am

#8

ok I got to say this first of i am a MBH and i have my specials, blind, stun, kd, dizzy, posture change resisted consistency. Why you ask because professions have resistance to my attack and you can even eat food that makes kd danm near impossible so until we get food or cm/defense skills that argument is not a good comparison to make for you part.

Now you say your dps is low, but basically can do about over 1k of mind damage every 20 secs now at that same time you can run away and stay out of range the whole time the dmg ticks away, that’s cost you pay for having a dot attack. Also other combat professions dps isn’t all that great when you compute the effect of 80% armor, mitigation, and the ever constant missing your shots.

Now here the big thing your dot attack is a area attack so if you hit 2 people your so called low dps doubles plus your low dps is completely concentrated on one pool the mind.

S y m p s o n

RCS37

Fri Mar 05, 2004 10:25 am

#9

Also terrain navigation is not a combat skills at all.

Your learn to navigate land better by having expereince in the wild, camping, hunting so forth you dont learn to navigate hills and mountains by craftings meds, or by shooting people with guns, thats why we dont get terrain navigation from killing npc's we get from animals that are out in the wild.

w00t my 300th post yay

Message Edited by RCS37 on 03-05-2004 09:26 AM

S y m p s o n

buzzz187

Fri Mar 05, 2004 10:30 am

#10

well I just posted a lil more in-depth OPINION thread in the CM boards. How to fix them in PvP? just slow them down.

If you dont want a reduction in your damage, then you should take more damage. If we should somehow start following the path of StarWars and that oh-so never present "Continuum" Then, I mean, abunch of guys running around in Labcoats tossing poisons and diseases should be easy pickins for Riflemen : )

Mild-Breeze-Trooper

Fri Mar 05, 2004 10:53 am

#11

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
buzzz187 wrote:

well I just posted a lil more in-depth OPINION thread in the CM boards. How to fix them in PvP? just slow them down.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I thought this was the CM board?

RSC37

Also terrain navigation is not a combat skills at all.

Your learn to navigate land better by having expereince in the wild, camping, hunting so forth you dont learn to navigate hills and mountains by craftings meds, or by shooting people with guns, thats why we dont get terrain navigation from killing npc's we get from animals that are out in the wild.

Obviously you learn to move quickly in combat (well in terrain as well of course) by skinning and boning small animal. Well, yes... i can see where that makes sense.

As I said in my posts over and over again. I'm all for working resistances to poisons. Especially when kept at a reasonable level. (You should check out Char Nor Hola or whatever it is named BTW, it is at least said to increase resistances... if it doesn't that is a bug that needs fixing)

Carbicide: "The victimless crime!"
BTW Yes it is true, I've tested it myself, poison only ticks once every TEN seconds!
"I lead with my intellect, wits, example and the big nasty gun that I use to shoot everyone who doesn't follow my orders"
Rennec Bibo, proud owner of some sort of carbine since november 2003.

Rchuno

Fri Mar 05, 2004 11:53 am

#12

RCS37 wrote:
Also terrain navigation is not a combat skills at all.

Your learn to navigate land better by having expereince in the wild, camping, hunting so forth you dont learn to navigate hills and mountains by craftings meds, or by shooting people with guns, thats why we dont get terrain navigation from killing npc's we get from animals that are out in the wild.

w00t my 300th post yay

Message Edited by RCS37 on 03-05-2004 09:26 AM

Last time you checked up on Military training? Field medics are some of the best people out there at terrain negotiation. They have to have great endurance and great footing in order to get where they have to be in time. (oops bringing reality in here again)

Sidenote: (turned into the main note)

Our DPS even at 1000 damage per tick is at what 167 dps and to get that we have to get some sort of drop to make something that powerfull. Ok so we reduce that by 75% = 41dps which can be healed by swallowing a food enhancement or spice. Thus with a 75% reduction Combat medics are useless in PvP at all. So by giving us a 75% reduction we would effectivly become area healers... which I know you think is all we are supposed to be. But then if we are just area healers what the heck are we good for? I would rather have a doc with singles following people around than a mass healer. (That is why I have master doc as well) So you say we are a support class what do you mean by that? A class that can not come into combat? If I sound defensive it is because I am just trying to quickly get some main points across. Work, as has been said, on resistances not on reducing damage because if you reduce our damage by as much as most want to you eliminate us all.

Summed up:

We should get the terrain negotiation at leaste +20.

75% reduction = removal of CM from combat.

Resistances are a good thing.

****************************
* Niccaurra {} Master DOC / Aspiring Merchant
*Niqe {DRUNK} TKM/Pist
****************************

RCS37

Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:01 pm

#13

Uh real life into a star wars game get real, sure field medics have to move fast but terrain navigation? You’re telling me in a rl scenario field medics are the equivalent to the outdoor nuts that climb mountains and hike thought deserts and so forth? We aren’t talking about good military training giving people the ability to move fast on a battlefield were talking about the ability to navigate through rough terrain such as mountains. That’s what scouts and rangers do. Sure in RL everyone in good armed forces received training in how to move in the outdoors but that aint the same as a combat medic profession

Secondly heaven forbid someone should be able to take spices or food in order to stay alive from your overpowered mind poisons. Give me a break, if you boys and girls want to be a combat profession take it like all other combat professions and accept the 75% reduction we all have to live with. (my bleed and my fire attacks is reduced 75%)

I hear all this talk omg what will we do if we can incap 20 people in 20 seconds by applying a poison/disease to there mind, what ever will we do, you’re a freaking combat medic got heal someone you nuts you supposed to apply support and heal people, use those ranged area stims don’t cry about the fact you only spend 29 sp’s in combat and you can have god like offensive abilities on the battlefield. Danm I swear you only spent 29 sp on combat skills the rest of your sp is dedicated to healing damage, and crafting meds live with it.

And if your poison does 1000 mind damage every 10 seconds that means for most people incap in 10 seconds and for the rare and buffed people incap in 20 seconds, so don’t give me your low dps bs

S y m p s o n

Combat Medic Archive

Thread: Instead of Nerfing (first try)