Combat Medic Archive
Thread: The Range Fix?
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Rikilii
Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:59 am
#1
Do we know how this will work? Will it simply be the removal of the MCM 2x range bonus, or will there be a hard cap.
If it is the former, this change will have a drastic effect on CMs. The max possible range will be 48m, and to get that range,will require almost all experimentation points to be put into range, leaving the effectiveness of the poison very low. Without experimenting to 48m, CMs will basically have to get within melee range to attack.
So, in essence, this will amount to a range AND damage nerf. So who needs a 75% damage reduction?
Message Edited by Rikilii on 07-09-2004 12:02 PM
Morganite
Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:23 am
#2
I can hit 42 meters without putting a point into range just from my materials and my ADM's. 3 points max to get to 48 meters. From what I understand, masters can still hit 64 meters. I wonder how they will work AoE into the range calculations?
To a real combat medic who understands how to play his character, this isn't a nerf of any shape or form. This cripples the FOTM CM's, and who cares about them anyway? If you are a real combat medic, you have the uber materials that this wont make a difference in the grand scheme of things.
jfang
Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:33 am
#4
Morganite wrote:
I can hit 42 meters without putting a point into range just from my materials and my ADM's. 3 points max to get to 48 meters. From what I understand, masters can still hit 64 meters. I wonder how they will work AoE into the range calculations?
To a real combat medic who understands how to play his character, this isn't a nerf of any shape or form. This cripples the FOTM CM's, and who cares about them anyway? If you are a real combat medic, you have the uber materials that this wont make a difference in the grand scheme of things.
/emote is skeptical;
Whenever I put a point in charges experimentation, the range only goes up by 1... So three points of experimentation in your range would get you to 45m, not 48. Hmm...
jkray8472
Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:36 am
#5
jfang, have you ever maxed out your bar on charges?
Effectiveness goes up slowly the first few points, and then at the high end of hte bar, takes an exponential leap. I think charges/range is the same. Small bonuses for the first few points, and then it goes up significantly as you increase.
The way I tend to experiment, is put 3 points in charges, 6 in effectiveness, all as one large experiment. If I get a great or amazing success, I think fill up the remaining three points in effectiveness. If not, I scratch the whole thing and start over. I usually can get a 5 point increase in range by spending only three poitns in the charges column.
I'm going to do some CM crafting over the weekend (need some cash, and realized that I'm still the top provider of CM packs on the serve 
). I'll see what #s I can crunch.
). I'll see what #s I can crunch.
Morganite
Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:38 am
#6
I have never once put a single point into anything I craft, if the attribute I am trying to raise isnt worth 3 points, it isnt worth any. Try using more points at once. 3 points at once +amazing=48 range if you start out at 42.
Message Edited by Morganite on 07-09-2004 09:43 AM
jfang
Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:43 am
#7
I have fully experimented charges, but never really paid attention to them after the first few points.
I do know the effectiveness does not follow this exponential curve you described. A single experimentation "great success" has the same effect, be it the first point put into the line or the 10th (assuming you don't hit the cap based on the quality of the resource). I assumed that range behaved in the same way.
If I am mistaken and there is a increasing returns to scale with range, I will be very surprised though. If you are *sure* that's how it works, I'll believe you though (and run some more tests to try to learn more about crafting too).
If nothing else though, I'mguessing the 3rd experimentation point in range won't give this exponential increase you described, to get a 42 range poison to 48 range...
Morganite
Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:49 am
#8
Your problem is putting "single points" into anything. That is the wrong way to craft. More points=more risk of failure=more reward if it works out.
Decimals that get dropped can add up, thus why you never want to experiment on something in any crafting profession unless you are using at least 3 points. (except for using up leftover points of course). Everything in this game gets rounded down, a 1.8 increase equals1 shown on the schmetic, but 1.8*3 points at oncecomes out to 5 in the final calculation..
No offense, but if you do your crafting by experimenting 1 point at a time (as your posts seem to indicate), you should stay silent in any type of crafting discussion, as you haven't learned all the in's and out's of the system yet... 
Message Edited by Morganite on 07-09-2004 09:49 AM
joydiv66
Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:51 am
#9
How are you guys getting 12 points to experiment with?
Skill tapes suck on my server I guess. I've never got anything higher than +2
Morganite
Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:57 am
#10
I have 11, which has proven time and time again to be more then enough.
I always went with the formula 3 points into charges, 8 into effectiveness. CM's all over get caught up into highest effectiveness, and that stat can be a mirage. The only time worrying about maxing out effectiveness is worthwhile is if you are using venom and you want to ensure you can get an effectiveness that a doc cant cure in 1 shot, which is impossible without venom. Many times I beat CM's using 363 power venoms by using my range to overpower them.
Bottom line, if you cant hit me, but I can hit you, I will win every time. this is true talking about any profession vs. profession fight.
jfang
Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:59 am
#11
Morganite wrote:
Your problem is putting "single points" into anything. That is the wrong way to craft. More points=more risk of failure=more reward if it works out.
Decimals that get dropped can add up, thus why you never want to experiment on something in any crafting profession unless you are using at least 3 points. (except for using up leftover points of course). Everything in this game gets rounded down, a 1.8 increase equals1 shown on the schmetic, but 1.8*3 points at oncecomes out to 5 in the final calculation..
No offense, but if you do your crafting by experimenting 1 point at a time (as your posts seem to indicate), you should stay silent in any type of crafting discussion, as you haven't learned all the in's and out's of the system yet...
Message Edited by Morganite on 07-09-2004 09:49 AM
Yes, you are right about the rounding. However, you are incorrect in that you are rounding too early. The crafting affects the percentages of each experimentation tree (which is an average of each of the stats that the tree affects). An experimentation point affects each of the sub-trees equally in the event of a "great" success (7%) or "amazing" success (8%).
These internal percentages are what are used to determine the raw quality of the final stat. The raw quality is then rounded to the nearest whole number, with .5 being rounded down. The system does not "prematurely round", as you described it.
The only thing experimenting several points at once does is affect how long it takes to run the experiment, and to aggregate the results on an experiment. So if you want a "perfect med", you experiment 8 points at a time in hopes of getting really lucky and getting an "amazing" result from it, as getting 8 individual "amazings" is very unlikely.
Assuming every result is always a great, there is no different from putting 5 points into a tree one at a time, or doing 5 at once.
And yes, I have the numbers and tests to back these conclusions up. (I reverse-engineered the formulas for some of the sub-components and some of the final combines out of curiosity.) If you *really* want me to start quoting them, I can try to dig up my scrap paper from my trash can.
I would love to see your experimentation numbers if nothing else, to get more data points to cross-referencemy crafting formula against.
Note I am ignoring the possibility of fluke schematics, as those appear unpredictable and are impossible to reproduce on a regular basis.
Edit: fixed spelling mistake.
Message Edited by jfang on 07-09-2004 01:01 PM
Morganite
Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:35 am
#12
First off, you have ENTIRELY to much time on your hands if you broke down all this crap. You need a job that actually requires work! *wink*
Secondly, I have no data other then thousands of schmetics made, which when i hit 42 meters base, i hit 47 meters in my final with 3 points put into it all at once when I got an amazing sucess. Every disease I ever made was for the max range once I learned how to craft properly.
Also, if an amazing is 8%, and a great is 7%, then the bump to "the next level" must come at 8%, otherwise there would be zero difference between 7% and 8% since we all agree decimals get rounded down. Otherwise there would be no difference between greats and amazings..
Rikilii
Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:44 am
#13
Morganite wrote:
First off, you have ENTIRELY to much time on your hands if you broke down all this crap. You need a job that actually requires work! *wink*
Secondly, I have no data other then thousands of schmetics made, which when i hit 42 meters base, i hit 47 meters in my final with 3 points put into it all at once when I got an amazing sucess. Every disease I ever made was for the max range once I learned how to craft properly.
Also, if an amazing is 8%, and a great is 7%, then the bump to "the next level" must come at 8%, otherwise there would be zero difference between 7% and 8% since we all agree decimals get rounded down. Otherwise there would be no difference between greats and amazings..
Are you sure that an amazing success for a multipoint experiment applies to all the points? I was under the impression that each point is calculated separately and only the result of the last point is displayed.
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