Combat Medic Archive
Thread: The Range Fix?
jfang
Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:49 am
#14
Morganite wrote:
First off, you have ENTIRELY to much time on your hands if you broke down all this crap. You need a job that actually requires work! *wink*
Secondly, I have no data other then thousands of schmetics made, which when i hit 42 meters base, i hit 47 meters in my final with 3 points put into it all at once when I got an amazing sucess. Every disease I ever made was for the max range once I learned how to craft properly.
Also, if an amazing is 8%, and a great is 7%, then the bump to "the next level" must come at 8%, otherwise there would be zero difference between 7% and 8% since we all agree decimals get rounded down. Otherwise there would be no difference between greats and amazings..
No, I happen to think that breaking the system down is fun. If nothing else, it gives ammo to combat (or agree with, when appropriate) the "CMs are overpowered" cries which are prevalent on the forums. Some people hunt krayts, some people participate in base attacks, some people spend hours runningn missions, some people spend hours surveying and harvesting, some people try to reverse engineer the game's systems. It's all about what you are interested in. 
Hitting 47m with 3 experimentation points, especially with amazing successes, is *much* more believable than the 48m you originally quoted. I think I'm going to have to run some more tests about crafting soon. You re-perked my interest...
As for the "bump to the next level", I think you missed my point. The rounding only happens at the very end. So getting an amazing is the same as getting a great and using 3% better resources (as the end quality percentage is the same). It doesn't matter how you get to a 47% quality range, only the final 47% quality. Thestatsthat are displayed in the experimentation windows are only for reference, and have no direct bearing on the act of experimenting.
Edit: Deleted phrase. Better to error on the side of being nice on the forums...
Edit: Proper grammer is good too... 
Message Edited by jfang on 07-09-2004 01:59 PM
Morganite
Fri Jul 09, 2004 1:42 pm
#15
48, 47, they are only 1 key apart. 
I didnt realize i mistyped until a few posts into it.
I didnt realize i mistyped until a few posts into it./apologies.
Morganite
Fri Jul 09, 2004 1:51 pm
#16
jfang wrote:
Rikilii wrote:
Are you sure that an amazing success for a multipoint experiment applies to all the points? I was under the impression that each point is calculated separately and only the result of the last point is displayed.
Am I positive about this, no. But I am quoting the Chef forums about this, and "12 point amazing" brandies. It seems reasonable though, seeing how every multi-point great success I've had has been a factor of 7% (and it stands to reason a critical failure or amazing success would have snuck in at some point if it could).
/agreed. I have an alt with a friend that is a master chef, and you see a noticeable difference using multiple points at a time instead of 1 point/experiment when getting amazings. The only difference I could determine in a batch of +441 brandy's compared to my normal +431 was the amazing on the first run of 5, as opposed to the second run of 3. (as a 12 point chef, i use my points 5/3 power, 4 into duration on brandy's.) If the amazing only worked on "1 point" out of that, there would be no difference. This is an aspect of crafting the dev's have kept intentionally vague, so without them coming out and telling us how it works, anything we say for sure is a WAG, maybe an informed WAG, but one nonetheless.
jfang
Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:03 pm
#17
For those who are curious, I just tested experimenting charges and it's affect on range. It appears that each range point required just over 7% experimentation. 7.5% seems reasonable given the results of my tests, although I didn't try to figure out the exact number.
As such, I doubt that you can go from 42 to 47 range with 3 experimentation points, even if you get an amazing success. The theoretical max, based on my tests, would be 42m to 46m using 3 experimentation points.
jkray8472
Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:10 am
#18
jfang wrote:
Assuming every result is always a great, there is no different from putting 5 points into a tree one at a time, or doing 5 at once.
I would just like to point out that there is one easily quantifiable difference between experimenting once for 5 points vs 5 times for 1 point each. Each time you click that experiment button, the complexity goes up. I believe that the complexity adds 8 seconds per complexity point on a factory run. That's why I try to do thing in as few experiments as possible.
And yes, I have the numbers and tests to back these conclusions up. (I reverse-engineered the formulas for some of the sub-components and some of the final combines out of curiosity.) If you *really* want me to start quoting them, I can try to dig up my scrap paper from my trash can.
Would you? I'd love to see them. I know a few things (like the power/charges of BECs in buffpacks is directly related to the power/charges of the buffs. Each point goes in individually. It looks like the same for Infection Amplifiers on poisons/diseases--which is why Spider Venom has such an impact on diseases, but a lesser increase on poisons).
I would love to see your experimentation numbers if nothing else, to get more data points to cross-referencemy crafting formula against.
Note I am ignoring the possibility of fluke schematics, as those appear unpredictable and are impossible to reproduce on a regular basis.
Fluke schematics are very rare. I haven't had one. But if you are failing to max out all your bars, and instead even things out (like in the CM subcomponents), then you can get varying results. I'll usually do a schematic identically a dozen times...and sometimes despite them being "amazing" successes...I'll get slightly different stats. Play with it--it's fun!
jkray8472
Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:12 am
#19
joydiv66 wrote:
How are you guys getting 12 points to experiment with?
Skill tapes suck on my server I guess. I've never got anything higher than +2
Paid 15 million credits to a Borgle Bat Camper and got a backpack full of CM tapes. (6 months ago, when 15 million was a lot more than it is today!).
I put together a +25 crafting, +25 assembly suit, and I just finished my +25 CM Effectiveness, +25 Healing Range, +25 Ranged Injury Treatment Speed combat suit...which I found out was worthless.
But the crafting tapes were definitely worthwhile. What server are you on?
joydiv66
Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:17 am
#20
jkray8472 wrote:
joydiv66 wrote:
How are you guys getting 12 points to experiment with?
Skill tapes suck on my server I guess. I've never got anything higher than +2
Paid 15 million credits to a Borgle Bat Camper and got a backpack full of CM tapes. (6 months ago, when 15 million was a lot more than it is today!).
I put together a +25 crafting, +25 assembly suit, and I just finished my +25 CM Effectiveness, +25 Healing Range, +25 Ranged Injury Treatment Speed combat suit...which I found out was worthless.
But the crafting tapes were definitely worthwhile. What server are you on?
Corbantis
What's the breakdown on your suit? You must have some good tapes.
jkray8472
Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:19 am
#21
joydiv66 wrote:
Corbantis
What's the breakdown on your suit? You must have some good tapes.
A few good tapes, a few lesser ones. My suit has 7 parts (everything but a bandolier), so that I don't have to remove my backpack in order to wear it and craft. Some +8, +10, a few +3-4s, and maybe one +1 to round out the numbers. Had a few spare ones also, just collecting dust in a backpack, but mostly just +1/+2s.
jfang
Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:20 am
#22
jkray8472 wrote:
Assuming every result is always a great, there is no different from putting 5 points into a tree one at a time, or doing 5 at once.
I would just like to point out that there is one easily quantifiable difference between experimenting once for 5 points vs 5 times for 1 point each. Each time you click that experiment button, the complexity goes up. I believe that the complexity adds 8 seconds per complexity point on a factory run. That's why I try to do thing in as few experiments as possible.
And yes, I have the numbers and tests to back these conclusions up. (I reverse-engineered the formulas for some of the sub-components and some of the final combines out of curiosity.) If you *really* want me to start quoting them, I can try to dig up my scrap paper from my trash can.
Would you? I'd love to see them. I know a few things (like the power/charges of BECs in buffpacks is directly related to the power/charges of the buffs. Each point goes in individually. It looks like the same for Infection Amplifiers on poisons/diseases--which is why Spider Venom has such an impact on diseases, but a lesser increase on poisons).
Yes, the formula is 8 seconds per complexity. But it is per complexity of the draft schematic, not of the actual manufacturing schematic. So if you take a poison C which is unexperimented on, and a poison C which has been experimented on 12 times, they will take the same amount of time in the factory to make.
I can try to dig them up. No promises though. I posted what formula I figured out earlier on this board though. In fact, I think you were the person who gave a heads up about how the quality of the combine was a weighted average of the individual components, although I might be mis-remembering that.
Let me see if I can dig up that post...
Edit:
Summary of findings can be found here:
I only ran a few more tests after this, as they combat medic forum seemed ambivilent to the results.
Message Edited by jfang on 07-09-2004 03:23 PM
jkray8472
Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:29 am
#23
jfang wrote:
Yes, the formula is 8 seconds per complexity. But it is per complexity of the draft schematic, not of the actual manufacturing schematic. So if you take a poison C which is unexperimented on, and a poison C which has been experimented on 12 times, they will take the same amount of time in the factory to make.
Really? I didn't know that. Thought that experimented items took longer than non-experimented. Fortunately, this one is REALLY easy to check, now that factories show you the time per item.
I can try to dig them up. No promises though. I posted what formula I figured out earlier on this board though. In fact, I think you were the person who gave a heads up about how the quality of the combine was a weighted average of the individual components, although I might be mis-remembering that.
Could have been me. I know that the individual components have a big part in it, as well as the actual resources that go into it (meaning your non-ferrous metal in your area Stims and poisons/diseases has a large impact on the range--make sure it has awesome OQ/CD--I recommend Platinite copper myself--contact your local WS to see what stocks he has).
Let me see if I can dig up that post...
Edit:
Summary of findings can be found here:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=combat_medic&message.id=34542
I only ran a few more tests after this, as they combat medic forum seemed ambivilent to the results.
Message Edited by jfang on 07-09-2004 03:23 PM
jfang
Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:47 am
#25
Or I made a mistake, which happens frequently. If you can re-confirm you get 5 range from 3 experimentation points, maybe listing what percentage your charges are experimented at and the stats of your DMs, we can see what is happening.
jkray8472
Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:20 am
#26
On Area Stims, most experimentation points are worth 2m range. (See my post on Area Stimpack C crafting)