Combat Medic Archive
Thread: The DPS Argument: Debunked.
Page 1 of 7
Nanuu
Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:44 am
#1
I've been reading about the arguments in defense of and against CM's. I just want to concentrate on one of the defense arguments:
"Rifleman (or other mind hitting classes) have a higher mind DPS than us, so why are people complaining about us"
This is the problem with the argument:
-You are arguing from a 1 to 1 perspective. Indeed a masterriflemancan out damage a MCMin a one on one fight. Well, the problem with the argument lies in that a MCM will poison EVERYONE within their area of effect while a Master rifleman can only focus on one person at a time.
-A master rifleman can only attack their ONE target when they are in range and visible. MCM's only need to apply the poison once and move on....the damage continues on the player no matter what. (Do not try to argue this with a mind bleed...they are useless and uncomparable).
-A MCM can stack these poisons thus multiplying their DPS. I heard that up to 6 poisons/diseases can be stacked? Correct me if Im wrong.
-Poisons and diseases ignore all armor and defenses unlike other mind hitting classes.
With all these counter-arguments in place, lets create a scenario.
You have 100 mind buffed players all standing in a grid, not moving. Who do you think will take out the 100 players quicker? The MRM or MCM? Take the same scenario, and make the players defense stackers with uber helmets....
DPS argument debunked. MCM out damages any mind hitting class.
Morath360
Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:23 pm
#2
By George I think Nanuu's got it.. You are not honestly going to argue that a very narrow area affect of an extremely rare low damage DOT rifle is even in the same universe as a CM are you?
Message Edited by Morath360 on 07-15-2004 01:28 PM
Menoetius
Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:20 pm
#3
The continuous calls for a 75% reduction in poison/diseases for player versus player is the result of the targeting of a single pool, the mind. In the player versus player arena the targeting of the health and/or action with a poison can be healed via the usage of a stim pack. No one complains about being hit with health and/or action poison in player versus player it's all about the mind. Many of the players that are crying for a nerf to MCM poisons/disease are for the most part are melee players with stacked defences.
It's the I am GODand no one can beat me template. Well until a simple MCM with no defences walks onto the battlefield and tosses a single mind poison bypassing all their defences,40% stun armour and PSGs. If the MCM was to use either a health or action poison this type of player would go whatever and pop a stim pack.
The simple addition of a healable mind pool via the usage of a stim pack would render all such debates on MCM DPS vs. Elite Combat DPS moot. Additional making the mind pool untargetable would have the same effect.
On a side note I am surprized there are not UN inspectors running around on the server examining all MCM for weapons of mass destruction. /wink
Now think of solutions.
jkray8472
Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:38 pm
#4
We already heard t hat the mind pool will become healable in the combat revamp.
Of course...the Devs just pushed the Combat Revamp back until November at the earliest....
Skydiver01
Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:51 pm
#5
Nanuu think before smoking that splif , not after.
You guys got to realize that CMs have almost zero defences ! We can't Dodge, Block, Counter Attack or Mittigate Damage, none at all.
Once a CM is targeted for attack by any type of fighter the CM is dead meat. If the CMs opponent is on his/her toes, the CM is targeted first and will be dead before he can throw a second attack. No need to cry about stacked DoTs.
Your crys are based only on if the CM is ignored and allowed to tose DoT after Dot. Those whom ignore the CM will die by the CM. . . . .
As you can read, Havla will no longer effect a CMs timer to apply and our Range is being corrected to register properly. Both of which all CMs agreed needed to be addressed.
IMHO the only problem with CMs that needs to be fixxed is the 75% DAM Reduction. Then all nerf cries will have no bearing. . . .
Say what you will, I own three ((at one time four)) accounts and only one is a Master Doc/ MCM. I play both sides of the fence. I find the CM to be weak and of use only in groups. While I play my PvP account ((TKM/MBrawler/Fencer:::NO MEDIC SKILLS AT ALL)) I find that the CM on the other side to a force that needs immediate attention but poses no real threat. As long as he's dealt with promptly. . .
Excite .
Rikilii
Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:36 am
#6
Nanuu wrote:
-You are arguing from a 1 to 1 perspective. Indeed a masterriflemancan out damage a MCMin a one on one fight. Well, the problem with the argument lies in that a MCM will poison EVERYONE within their area of effect while a Master rifleman can only focus on one person at a time.
True, a CM can typically hit 3-5 or more people with an AOE attack, but those 3-5 people, and all their friends can also reduce that CM to a smoldering pile of goo before he throws again, and also get their poison cured before the first tick, certainly before the second.
-A master rifleman can only attack their ONE target when they are in range and visible. MCM's only need to apply the poison once and move on....the damage continues on the player no matter what. (Do not try to argue this with a mind bleed...they are useless and uncomparable).
A single rifleman can use an AOE attack with a looted DOT rifle. A single CM is highly unlikely to survive the act of applying poison to someone if that person is on the ball.
-A MCM can stack these poisons thus multiplying their DPS. I heard that up to 6 poisons/diseases can be stacked? Correct me if Im wrong.
A single CM is highly unlikely to survive long enough to apply multiple DOTs to the same target, unless that target has his head up his a$$.
-Poisons and diseases ignore all armor and defenses unlike other mind hitting classes.
The DOT on a lootable DOT weapon ignores armor. There are other defenses to DOTs, such as Dr. cures.
With all these counter-arguments in place, lets create a scenario.
You have 100 mind buffed players all standing in a grid, not moving. Who do you think will take out the 100 players quicker? The MRM or MCM? Take the same scenario, and make the players defense stackers with uber helmets....
Despite the fact that these 100 players are total idiots for standing still in a "grid",t he answer is neither. Both the MRM and the MCM will end up dead before taking out a single one of the 100 opponents. The difference is, the MCM is highly unlikely to even do damage to the 100 players if they have a reasonable proportion of doctors among them
DPS argument debunked. MCM out damages any mind hitting class.
jkray8472
Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:51 am
#7
Each profession has strengths and weaknesses. CMs are better in group warfare (when they use their abilities to poison and disease). CMs have the same abilities across the board against all opponents.
All other combat professions have advantages and disadvantages in certain situations. Look ata CM versus a Rifleman in a 1 vs 1. Who will win? It won't be the CM. You are refusing to acknowledge the weaknesses of a CM, and you are only looking at the strengths. No Pistoleer would run up to a Nightsister Spellweaver and start shooting her from 6m away. But a Swordsman would do just that. Each profession MUST play to its strengths and avoid its weaknesses.
Just most of you don't seem to realize that...
Nanuu
Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:32 am
#8
Rikilii wrote:
Nanuu wrote:
-You are arguing from a 1 to 1 perspective. Indeed a masterriflemancan out damage a MCMin a one on one fight. Well, the problem with the argument lies in that a MCM will poison EVERYONE within their area of effect while a Master rifleman can only focus on one person at a time.
True, a CM can typically hit 3-5 or more people with an AOE attack, but those 3-5 people, and all their friends can also reduce that CM to a smoldering pile of goo before he throws again, and also get their poison cured before the first tick, certainly before the second.
Well in this wonderful world of SWG everyone is a CM, and many of those are CM/Rifleman. CM is a combat SUPPORT profession anyways. 3-5 people is an understatement in large scale pvp.
-A master rifleman can only attack their ONE target when they are in range and visible. MCM's only need to apply the poison once and move on....the damage continues on the player no matter what. (Do not try to argue this with a mind bleed...they are useless and uncomparable).
A single rifleman can use an AOE attack with a looted DOT rifle. A single CM is highly unlikely to survive the act of applying poison to someone if that person is on the ball.
If you read the argument I am debunking carefully, you would have seen I was referring to mind dps. Therefore, no rifleman has no AOE mind attack. Looted weapons are part of every combat class and should not be taken into consideration when comparing class features.
-A MCM can stack these poisons thus multiplying their DPS. I heard that up to 6 poisons/diseases can be stacked? Correct me if Im wrong.
A single CM is highly unlikely to survive long enough to apply multiple DOTs to the same target, unless that target has his head up his a$$.
A) thats not the point, I am talking about DPS and nothing else.
B) CM's don't have a problem surviving on my server...because everyone is one!!
-Poisons and diseases ignore all armor and defenses unlike other mind hitting classes.
The DOT on a lootable DOT weapon ignores armor. There are other defenses to DOTs, such as Dr. cures.
Again, loot weapons are not part of a classes standard features.
With all these counter-arguments in place, lets create a scenario.
You have 100 mind buffed players all standing in a grid, not moving. Who do you think will take out the 100 players quicker? The MRM or MCM? Take the same scenario, and make the players defense stackers with uber helmets....
Despite the fact that these 100 players are total idiots for standing still in a "grid",t he answer is neither. Both the MRM and the MCM will end up dead before taking out a single one of the 100 opponents. The difference is, the MCM is highly unlikely to even do damage to the 100 players if they have a reasonable proportion of doctors among them
Sigh.....D-P-S is the argument I am making here....Read and pay attention to the topic of debate (Sometimes reading the message subject helps)
DPS argument debunked. MCM out damages any mind hitting class.
Nanuu
Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:37 am
#9
Skydiver01 wrote:
Nanuu think before smoking that splif , not after.
You guys got to realize that CMs have almost zero defences ! We can't Dodge, Block, Counter
CM's often argue that their DPS is low compared to that of a rifleman or any other pool targeting class. The point of this post was to debunk that weak argument....nothing more, nothing less.
Read the message subject then the message before you smoke a BLUNT.
/bonk
Nanuu
Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:38 am
#10
EVERYONE REALLY NEEDS TO READ THE MESSAGE SUBJECT BEFORE MAKING POINTLESS COUNTER ARGUMENTS.
vortexala
Fri Jul 16, 2004 6:01 am
#11
Here's a counter argument... Poison does not incap nor does it kill at range. Can the same be said for Riflemen abilities?
A pure rifleman, in your 100 person scenario, would take out every single person eventually. The pure CM wouldn't take a single one down, ever.
DPS means nothing if an incap/kill isn't even allowed.
And before you bring up the 'poison + disease = incap' issue, that's not something that has ever been documented as 'working as intended' or as a 'bug'. Clarification is still being sought on that front.
A pure rifleman, in your 100 person scenario, would take out every single person eventually. The pure CM wouldn't take a single one down, ever.
DPS means nothing if an incap/kill isn't even allowed.
And before you bring up the 'poison + disease = incap' issue, that's not something that has ever been documented as 'working as intended' or as a 'bug'. Clarification is still being sought on that front.
Brainplay
Fri Jul 16, 2004 6:19 am
#12
Nanuu wrote:
Rikilii wrote:
Nanuu wrote:
-You are arguing from a 1 to 1 perspective. Indeed a masterriflemancan out damage a MCMin a one on one fight. Well, the problem with the argument lies in that a MCM will poison EVERYONE within their area of effect while a Master rifleman can only focus on one person at a time.
True, a CM can typically hit 3-5 or more people with an AOE attack, but those 3-5 people, and all their friends can also reduce that CM to a smoldering pile of goo before he throws again, and also get their poison cured before the first tick, certainly before the second.
Well in this wonderful world of SWG everyone is a CM, and many of those are CM/Rifleman. CM is a combat SUPPORT profession anyways. 3-5 people is an understatement in large scale pvp.
Many of those are riflemen since the other ranged professions cant stand up to any other melee class other than riflemen in PvP. Large scale PvP is still affected by the same modifiers of other classes that you are argueing here.
-A master rifleman can only attack their ONE target when they are in range and visible. MCM's only need to apply the poison once and move on....the damage continues on the player no matter what. (Do not try to argue this with a mind bleed...they are useless and uncomparable).
A single rifleman can use an AOE attack with a looted DOT rifle. A single CM is highly unlikely to survive the act of applying poison to someone if that person is on the ball.
If you read the argument I am debunking carefully, you would have seen I was referring to mind dps. Therefore, no rifleman has no AOE mind attack. Looted weapons are part of every combat class and should not be taken into consideration when comparing class features.
Actually you didn't mention MIND dps until the very end of your post and no where else and what does that matter? You cant argue against any one certain pooljust becauseno other class has an area attack against it. Strafeshot2 is the most powerful attack riflemen have but because it doesn't attack the MIND it isn't used in PvP against buffed players. When the MIND is revamped you will see StrafeShot2 used alot more. The looted weapons are still weapons that are bought or found. I still have to buy a T21 if I dont like using the cdef rifle I got when I started my character.
-A MCM can stack these poisons thus multiplying their DPS. I heard that up to 6 poisons/diseases can be stacked? Correct me if Im wrong. No sir you are correct
A single CM is highly unlikely to survive long enough to apply multiple DOTs to the same target, unless that target has his head up his a$$.
A) thats not the point, I am talking about DPS and nothing else. Yup and you're being selective about it too. It ranks up there with fundamentalism....
B) CM's don't have a problem surviving on my server...because everyone is one!! Hey so sorry that's a problem. But dont worry, with the changes coming, area cures, and innoculations you'll see alot of those no skill FoTM dabblers dropping CM like a hot knife and going back to being TK/fencer/riflemen.
-Poisons and diseases ignore all armor and defenses unlike other mind hitting classes.
The DOT on a lootable DOT weapon ignores armor. There are other defenses to DOTs, such as Dr. cures.
Again, loot weapons are not part of a classes standard features. Thats not a basis for ignoring it in this equation. Its a supplemental damage type that they dont have to spend all of the skill points we do just to use it. Stone knives have some of the best DoT's and they are novice brawler level. I have to master at least one full profession, a ranged support tree, and a novice profession just to match those stone knives.
With all these counter-arguments in place, lets create a scenario.
You have 100 mind buffed players all standing in a grid, not moving. Who do you think will take out the 100 players quicker? The MRM or MCM? Take the same scenario, and make the players defense stackers with uber helmets....
Despite the fact that these 100 players are total idiots for standing still in a "grid",t he answer is neither. Both the MRM and the MCM will end up dead before taking out a single one of the 100 opponents. The difference is, the MCM is highly unlikely to even do damage to the 100 players if they have a reasonable proportion of doctors among them
Sigh.....D-P-S is the argument I am making here....Read and pay attention to the topic of debate (Sometimes reading the message subject helps)
Actually the rifleman will. The cone attack on strafeshot2 extends from the muzzle to the full 64m. The cone effect is VERY large. Add to the fact that the rifleman is already shooting once per every 2 seconds without any speed tapes and at the 1 second speed cap with those speed tapes. Defense stackers lose their defense advantages the second a stun hits them which comes from startleshot2 which is paired with Fushingshot2 (both area cone attacks) for 2nd place in damage. Now you WERE talking about DPS here right? So MIND damage DOES NOT MATTER in your arguement. Incapping and killing someone is a completely different subject. Landing just ONE full hit from any of those attack equats to a higher DPS than a single or area poison by themselves. Stacking them will eventually push the mark over but that takes alot of stacking and alot of time to do.
DPS argument debunked. MCM out damages any mind hitting class. Wow so you finally realized that the MIND is a major fault in the game mechanics. Instead of saying, "hey there's this is an issue that needs to be addressed" you are whining about MIND dps. Good job...
P.s.- Wanna know the big difference between a rifleman and a Combat Medic. The number of riflemen increases the amount of potential dps with each addition to the group. The number of Combat Medics has no effect on this and the dps stays the same.
p.p.s- Teras Kasi is a martial art and never were the watcher of the jedi. Even according to the ONE and only ONE reference made to that (which comes from a constantly refuted SW source) acknowledges that a single community/people took up the martial art and chose to call themselves the watchers. They failed miserbly didn't they.
Message Edited by Brainplay on 07-16-2004 06:22 AM
Morath360
Fri Jul 16, 2004 6:25 am
#13
Vort,
Yes, but his point is that DPS is relative and the current DPS calcs are flawed. Which they are. I fail to see how the fact that a poison does not incap is relevant. This is a DPS thread, not a who can incap who under what circumstances thread.
Brain,
As much as you would like to think that this profession needs to be left alone and that only the Mind bar is the problem,its not. The insane amount of damage would have similiar results on other bars. I know because I have done it. The mind is just the most efficient at the moment. You seem to think that a novice medic can keep up with the poisons without any problem. I have heard the argument on healing stims. Its simply not true. Especially if you add any kind of stacking.
Message Edited by Morath360 on 07-16-2004 06:45 AM
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