Combat Medic Archive
Thread: A simple reply to illustrate the power of poison...
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Morath360
Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:13 pm
#1
I did not want to hijack the feedback thread...
One has a combat medic the other doesnt. Let's be conservative. CM goes in and hits 5 people with a 300 tick poison. That is only 1500 damage every 10 seconds. Now take a rifleman that is able to hit at 500 after the 75% reduction every second. He goes after the CM and kills him. Poison goes to work on him . Lets say he very good and kills 2 more people before he dies.Now we know he didnt do all the damage but lets assume he did. Lets assume he hit them all in the mind. Lets assume they had buffed minds to 3000. He killed 3 of the 5 people so that is 9000 points. Lets be conservative and say he did this in 2 minutes. In just one minute the dead CM has done 6 x 1500damage or 9000. The same as the riflemanor women. However he did it in 1 minute instead of 2. His average damage per second is 9000/60 or 150 dps. The rifleman or woman is half that or 75 dps because he did it in 2 minutes.
Now if we want to start talking bigger ticks and stacking coupled with the riflemen/CM combo we can. We can throw docs into the equation as well but we all know that 1 doc cannot counter one 1CM no way no how and the doctorscuring ability stops when he dies. Not so for the CM's poison. I skewed this on purpose to make a simple point. Judge for yourself..
Message Edited by Morath360 on 07-14-2004 01:17 PM
jkray8472
Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:21 pm
#2
Just like to point out--a doctor with havla, or one doc per 2-3 people can keep up with CMs.
CMs have a time and a place where they shine. They also have situations where they get eaten alive, and their poisons and diseases get scoffed at. People only look at the "optimal" situations for CMs (i.e. several people in a group together with no doctors).
Look at the "optimal" situation for a rifleman--Group of people, unbuffed, unarmored, with no foods, standing in a little cluster together. StrafeShot2 with a damage-sliced Krayt T21 would kill them all in 3 seconds or less. That's a much higher dps than what a CM can do in their "optimum" combat scenario.
People's main grief with CMs is that it has no defenses, that it hits the mind, that it can be stacked etc. Perhaps fixing stacking would be a good thing. I wouldn't be against it.
As far as no defences--Joe Schmoe CM with crappy resources will find his poisons/diseases resisted against all the time. There is a food that increases poisons/disease resistance, if I recall. And CM is the only profession that has a delay between their "attack" and the damage being dealt. Even bleeds and burns deal initial damage. This means that if your group (or you personally) are prepared...you can deal with a CM and not take a single point of damage. No other Combat class can say that. Even super defense stackers with super armor and food etc take a little damage, periodically.
And as far as the mind goes: COMBAT REVAMP. If CMs tossed Health Poisons, nobody would cry at all...
Morath360
Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:30 pm
#3
The above illustration is hardly optimal. I used a low tick. I used a high powered rifleman. I feel that no class should be game breaking by itself. My pvp experience shows that our doc always gets gobbled up. To say you must have 1 doc for every 3 people shows the lack of balance since it is only to cure for one other profession. In any event, I will have to test the new changes..
Message Edited by Morath360 on 07-14-2004 01:32 PM
jkray8472
Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:34 pm
#4
Morath360 wrote:
The above illustration is hardly optimal. I used a low tick. I used a high powered rifleman. I feel that no class should be game breaking by itself. My pvp experience shows that our doc always gets gobbled up. To say you must have 1 doc for every 3 people shows the lack of balance. In any event, I will have to test the new changes..
It's optimal just in the sense of a group of heavily armored, food-prepared defense-oriented players vs Combat Medic. In a 1 vs 1 situation against a Doctor...a CM doesn't stand a chance. But too many players just ignore that...
And as far as balance with CM vs Doctors go...how many players go into PvP without buffs? Doctors are supremely necessary in almost all functions of the game right now. Everyone goes buffed. CMs just make it where you can't leave that random doctor in the starport--you have to bring him with you just in case. CMs aren't skewing the balance any--the need for doctors is already high. CMs just force them to get off the golf courses and onto the battlefield!
-Hoodlum-
Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:37 pm
#5
In PVP you make your template to best suit what you will be fighting against. Stackers have all of their skills to dodge and state defense with maybe a side of novice medic. They can kick the crap out of numbers of people and have 7 people beat on them at once and barely have their ham effected. The one class that makes this type of insane tank worry is the CM.
It is purely a tactical choice of how you deal with poison and if you want to be able to cure your poison if you get hit. If you are going to PVP and you think you may run into a CM, then you may want a doctor with you. I do not think CM poison is over powering when it is against the right class. CM is almost useless vs a group of 7 who have TKA or a group of 7 with 1 MD.
Most CM's also die very very quickly once they are targeted for attack. With no defenses the CM is down and if the player has the right class then they are able to continue on with no worries at all and no effects to show.
Also, 1 MD can cure the group of 7 if they want to be cured. I have been in many big groups as the MD/MCM and I was able to cure against other MCM's just fine. You have to have group members who are willing to fall back from the fight for a quick cure. If your team runs around with their heads cut off trying to chase the nice piece of tail then they will go down.
It's all just about how you want to PVP... I don't see CM's over powered, there are ways to totally counter the CM unlike any other class. I can say this myself as a MD/MCM with marksman rifle 4.... If someone is able to cure my attacks then I am completely assed out!
Kraftomatic
Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:53 pm
#6
You can't compare CM DoT and regular damage..it's just not on the same level.
Morath360
Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:57 pm
#7
First of all I am a master TKA on my main pvp character Kahless. You simply cannot meditate the poison away fast enough and if you get a disease on you forget it. Second, my above illustration is a simple conservative one. It doesnt take an uber CM to do the above. Also, my focus is on group play not 1v1. Given the amount of time and resources necessary to get a group together, it is a real problem when 1 profession can destroy that in short order.
I get tired of hearing the DPS claim. Any reasonable person can see that the CM has very high damage because of the constancy. Sure you can try to say the above scenario doesnt happen. I agree, its much worse in favor for the CM.
Menoetius
Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:08 pm
#8
Everyone speaks of the uber AoE poison capable of dishing out 876 per tick, thats not a random number I have AoE poison what does this, and screaming nerf this or that. Combined with my 1068 per tick single and 550 per tick AoE Disease there quite annoying to other players. But I do not PvP at all. I only duel my fellow guildies to allow to see how a CM works and help better understand the CM.
But if some has a uber Ion rifle, Geno Pistol, etc... players go oOoOo nice one. If you MCM and display your uber poison/disease people race into the CM forum and scream, using this uber as an example for nerfage.
Comparing the skills of one profession versus that of another profession. This is apples and oranges as one requires ~1.83 times the skills needed to master than the other.
As opposed to seeking some from of nerfage to the class perhaps player'stime would be better spent offering possible solutions in this forum or the Doctor forum.
Morath360
Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:21 pm
#9
I have offered several solutions to the CM. However, you raise the very interesting SP issue. The real fallacy with that is that I have spent more SP on more combat professions than any CM. Its really easy to do since the majority of our SP's are for medic and curing. I have suggested giving the CM more sp in order to gain what they need in PVE and at the same time balance pvp. You have to admit as a CM/Doc we stink in pve. Why not give more points by getting rid of the ranged support tree of Marksmen. My MD/MS rocked pve.
Also, its not apples to oranges. Both deal damage to the same person and the same health bars. Both kill you. The only diff is that one uses non mitigated poison that ignores defenses for the most part and practically never stops even when the issuer dies.
Anyway I really appreciate the analysis going on here..
MagicalHAt
Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:37 pm
#10
Dev 1 * Hey lets make this game **edit**ed up than all the others and instead of there being a health and mana bar will add in action and mind!
The diff will be that Health and Action can be buffed so theyll rock at pve cause mobs dont hurt mind that much!
Dev 2 * thats an awsome idea. What about PvP??/
Dev 3 * see thats the beauty every charcter can get easily killed by there mind stat!!!
Dev 4 * Hey guys what did you want on your cheese burgers?
Dev 1 * Omg cheese burgers that gives me an idea. How bout a medicclass that can throw poisions that only target the mind
Dev 2 * Ya thats gana rock and we can allivate enough skill points for them to be effective at cm with out being a master of it!!
Dev 3 * Dudes we fing rock
Dev 4 * But if we do that then all class types need to be able to do mind damage. And the poison shouldnt be too powerfull after all its a combat MEDIC class!!!
Dev 1 * Dude **edit** that would take to much work what do you know anyway u just started last week **edit** and get more cheese burgers.
Geo-Pride
Wed Jul 14, 2004 3:01 pm
#11
Get your mind buffed and take some brandy and you will take out any CM nomatter what the poison, now stop bitching and go cry elsewhere
jfang
Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:37 pm
#12
Morath360 wrote:
First of all I am a master TKA on my main pvp character Kahless. You simply cannot meditate the poison away fast enough and if you get a disease on you forget it.
I will point out that a TKM can meditate away the strongest non-loot disease that a CM can make is 5 seconds or less. It is only poisons which are difficult to meditate away, given you have the opportunity to do so.
Brainplay
Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:42 am
#13
Morath360 wrote:
I have offered several solutions to the CM. However, you raise the very interesting SP issue. The real fallacy with that is that I have spent more SP on more combat professions than any CM. Its really easy to do since the majority of our SP's are for medic and curing. I have suggested giving the CM more sp in order to gain what they need in PVE and at the same time balance pvp. You have to admit as a CM/Doc we stink in pve. Why not give more points by getting rid of the ranged support tree of Marksmen. My MD/MS rocked pve. Yes Morath some of your ideas are good ones but many of them still are far from the main issue. I keep repeating it over and over but you seem to ignore it. Make the mind equal to the health and action while making it healable fixes ALOT of the issues with Combat Medics owning people. Range has already been address.
Also, its not apples to oranges. Both deal damage to the same person and the same health bars. Both kill you. The only diff is that one uses non mitigated poison that ignores defenses for the most part and practically never stops even when the issuer dies. And the dev's have already acknowledge that fact that defenses and armor are waay over the top of what they envisioned when the game was created. Health and Action poisons ARE mitigated by the regeneration of a buff and it takes STACKING to cut through those with poison alone. Wouldn't it be great if the MIND was just like the Health and Action so that MIND poisons didn't have such an easy time eating them up? Poisons stop after 4min-12min which in PvP is a lifetime. If there were more classes that could cure poison things would be alot simpler.
Anyway I really appreciate the analysis going on here..
p.s.- Most ranged professions have a "cone" effect attack. As a rifleman my strafeshot 2 is the most powerful attack in my arsenal and is a cone attack as well meaning I can literally hit 30 people in front of me. The difference is that it has a much greater chance of hitting the Health and Action than the MIND therefore making it useless in PvP against anyone even using a jawa to bypass their armor. There was only one engagement where I actually saw cone fire put to good use during a raid on a rebel base. After our skirmishers incapped the rebel CM's waiting for us on the fringes we charged as a wedge attack straight down the middle of their house/tunnel/wall set up to the front of their basehopeing tomass firepower to destroy any melee we might encounter. They of course swarmed out of their base and the melee went to work. All of the sudden everyone and I mean everyone's health and action started to go down (before turrets were player useable and we had destroyed them anyway). Turns out they had a bunch of carbineers and riflemen spamming away their cone attacks. My area stims couldn't keep up with the damage and I was kd/dizzied then killed early on anyway.
Message Edited by Brainplay on 07-15-2004 05:52 AM
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