Combat Medic Archive
Thread: A simple reply to illustrate the power of poison...
Morath360
Thu Jul 15, 2004 7:09 am
#14
jfang wrote:
Morath360 wrote:
First of all I am a master TKA on my main pvp character Kahless. You simply cannot meditate the poison away fast enough and if you get a disease on you forget it.
I will point out that a TKM can meditate away the strongest non-loot disease that a CM can make is 5 seconds or less. It is only poisons which are difficult to meditate away, given you have the opportunity to do so.
If I am not mistaken, doesn't the order of meditation work first on the poison? If that is the case, you have a 3 minute wait before you even get to the disease.
Col_Osiris
Thu Jul 15, 2004 7:47 am
#15
It has come to my attention that the only peole who ever cry about CMs being too strong are the very ones who by all accounts are Defense Stackers who are use to whoopin up on everything in PvP. I think whats really going on here is a major case of envy and jealousy because theres actually soemthing that you are scared of. I think that CMs need to stay exactly like they are for the sole purpose that its really the only thing that can stop Defense Stackers. You guys are just gonna cry nerf to everything until your stupid templates are the most powerful beings in the game. Well you know what, tough. Really, all that needs to happen is the combat rebalance. just wait for it and do your best to deal with it until then. After combat rebalance, everything offensive is going to be weaker, and everything defensive is going to be stronger. Which means all you Defense Stackers are going to be even more powerful. So just shut your trap and deal with it. I am sick and tired of all you people coming on these forums trying to sound like you know what youre talking about, when really its a bunch of technical mumbo jumbo jargon that puts static over the real issue, that it just burns you up inside that you have a weak spot. If you want to survive a CM attack, then you better be prepared. You dont want P/D on you? Then I suggest you either get some food buffs which resist it or find a Doc and stick close to him/her. Who knows, they may even give us something for it with the Smuggler revamp, which Id be more than willing to betthey will.
There doesnt need to be a nerf, or a Doc AoE cure P/D, you just need to emplement something else to keep the CM busy. A Cure P/D skill for the CMwill be a perfect solution, and/or allow the CM to heal mind with stims. Or something else that gives a resistance against it. Think about it this way, if the CM is doing something else, then its not throwing P/D. Thats how simple all of this really is.
Morath360
Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:04 am
#16
Mmaxx wrote:
The only counter to a CM is a Doc. Sorry but there is no prof that is resistant to all other profs.... and that is the way it should be. A good PVPgroup should include several Profs working together.
By the same token, there shouldnt be a profession that all other professions except one cannot resist. That is my point exactly. Having a mix of professions where all working together in unison make a deadly force is balance. Not where just one profession is causing all the damage. I agree with you that the defenses of the CM are weak. I am against that as well. I just would like to see it balanced on both sides.
Col_Osiris
Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:28 am
#17
BAH! Screw balance man! You cant have a balanced game when things such as Defense Stackers exist!!! You want to make CM less powerful? Then something has to give as far as Defense Stackers. if you nerf CM, whats gonna happen is theres gonna be something else to take its place, its as simple as that. Something like a RM/TKM/Swordsman or some crap will be the next CM, and then theyll nerf those, then itll be BH/Carbineer/Pitoleer/Master Dark Jedi or some ignorant concoction, and on and on and on.
DO NOT NURF CM!!!!! DO NOT NURF COMBAT MEDIC!!!! DO NOT NURF COMBAT MEDIC!!!!
DO NOT NURF COMBAT MEDIC!!!!!!
You want a fair balanced game? Let me tell you how to make it. Number onenurf it all and start over from scratch. First and foremost, Brawler professions (all of them) shouldnt do any more than half of what any Ranged profession can do as far as attack power goes! Which means, if I can shoot my pistol or whatever, at a maximum of 1000 damage, then no Brawler profession even at Master level should deal anymore than 500. Secondly, Ranged combatants should tank anymore than half what a Brawler can tank. Meaning, if a Brawler can tank and defend 1000 pts of damage, then any Ranged combatant should never absorb more than 500. All Stats are equal in importance, if you can heal health, then you can heal action and mind. There should be armor that protects against every type of damage there is. If you dont have the right armor for the occasion, then perhaps someone else should go into the fight other than you.
Thats a balanced game. And please, dont be a fool and start getting smart with my examples, it was all hypathetical. You want balance, then thats the way the gameHAS to be made. End of story man. It all comes down to Paper, Rock, Scissors, always has been,always will be. Wanna know why its like that? Because thats the onyl way it works! Flame away!!!!
'NUF SAID!!!
Raice Geriko <COR>
Mmaxx
Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:05 am
#18
Morath360 wrote:
Mmaxx wrote:
The only counter to a CM is a Doc. Sorry but there is no prof that is resistant to all other profs.... and that is the way it should be. A good PVPgroup should include several Profs working together.
By the same token, there shouldnt be a profession that all other professions except one cannot resist. That is my point exactly. Having a mix of professions where all working together in unison make a deadly force is balance. Not where just one profession is causing all the damage. I agree with you that the defenses of the CM are weak. I am against that as well. I just would like to see it balanced on both sides.
Sorry but CMs aren't the only profs that apply poisons and diseases, we just do it better then everyone else. The DOT weapons that are included in most inventories to the same types of damage we do but still the doc is needed to counter it. The doc is also requried for those nasty burns people get. That is what the master healer does. heals what others can't.
Ssobe
Thu Jul 15, 2004 10:07 am
#19
I'll agree that CM is a nasty portion of PVP, but it isn't a terrible portion. It is just something you have to prepare for if you're going to PVP. I've been on both sides of the coin. I used to be a MD/MCM, but I have since dropped MCM for MD/Master Rifleman.
If Combat Medics are on the field, you need Doctors to counter them. When I'm in a group, I view it as my responsibility toheal poison/disease/rez but more importantly to keep the CM on his back or in the clone center. Generally with a DXR-6b or a T21 I can take out the CM before he doesmuch to me, While he is on the ground, Icure the poison/diseasefor the group. Then my attention goes back to the CM. Pretty simple.
-Hoodlum-
Thu Jul 15, 2004 10:24 am
#20
Yes, I do agree of course it is only the defense stackers who complain about the CM poison damage as they do not want to spend the points to have the skill to cure it. The reason CM's are a bit more painful in PVP is because nobody wants to play the doctor. The doctor is a weakerprofession and is not as uber as a TKM/Fencer/Pikeman stacker. These stacker characters are built to defend against melee and ranged attacks and not poison. If you really wanted to you could be a Master Fencer/Master Doctor, that would fix the issue of a CM being to high power to fight against... But then you are weaker to the more direct melee and ranged PVP... But hey! You don't have to worry about CM...
It is your choice how you want your character balanced... You can either have your character skills set to defend against ranged, defend against melee or you can defend against states (poison, fire, dizzy, etc..)
Kewi
Thu Jul 15, 2004 10:34 am
#21
Not to harp on the point, but yes CM's do have a considerable defense weakness, but how many CM's only have the CM skill and don't use the rest of their skill points?
Yes a CM in a 1 on 1 situation is vulernable, but does not a CM have the same ability to get buffed (Doctor/Entertainer) as the other classes? Does not the CM have the use of Brandy/Muon Gold? That with the ablitity to wear armor make a CM a hard kill still especially when they disease/poison their opponent's mind out of the gate.
I fully agree on the defense stacking issue. That's just insane in itself. How many TKM/whatever vs TKM/whatever fights have we seen at starports that last the 10 min shuttle wait with both of them quitting to catch the shuttle because they still had no damage. However just because other classes take all day to kill each other when buffed with food, doesn't mean one profession should be able to say that isn't right and have to power to kill another that quickly.
We all know about kiting, well I hope everyone does. A meleer vs. a ranged opponent runs around like a chicken with its head cut off trying to catch up to said opponent. If they do, they posture change and dizzy to keep them close for a bit. Now a CM can throw poison/disease from 64m away. By the time a melee opponent can "catch" the CM, the meleer is pretty much useless.
Oh and this is assuming everyone is dancer/entertainer buffed and on food/spice. God forbid the poor shmuck got scanned by a probot or something not intentionally being declaredand only has their 500-1300 normal mind.
To say to bring a doctor along is also annoying to hear. Why should it take two people to kill a CM, but the same is said about those who can burn people.
Anyhow, I don't PvP much, but when I do its enjoyable against all combat professions but the CM. It doesn't matter if is 1 vs 1 or in groups. I am a doctor and can cure the disease/poison, but running around constantly healing until the mind is drained is just a slow frusterating death, not to mention it seems all the CM's I've seen in PvP have rifleman as their other class.
All being said, some changes do need to be taken. I guess we'll see with the combat reblance, but as for now the range being reduced from 96m to 64m is a start 
Morath360
Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:08 am
#22
Mmaxx wrote:
Sorry but CMs aren't the only profs that apply poisons and diseases, we just do it better then everyone else. The DOT weapons that are included in most inventories to the same types of damage we do but still the doc is needed to counter it. The doc is also requried for those nasty burns people get. That is what the master healer does. heals what others can't.
You simply cannot water it down like that although it is a nice try. Other DOT weaps do not do the type of ranged area effect that a CM has or near the power or duration. Even if you pull a rabbit out of your hat and come up with a specific example it is very very rare. CM's are everywhere in pvp and even a low powered CM has access to to area poisons at 350+ and singles 500+ with a very long duration.
A TKA can easily meditate away pike and fencerpoisons in a farely short period of time after the initial fight has ended. Commandos are pretty rare and usually end up poisoned and on their back so I can count on one time where I had a nasty burn put on me and that was a clone die burn clone die cycle until I finally just got on my bike and left. About a minute later the burn stopped and I meditated the wounds away.
Please keep in mind. I dont think it is right for us to die quickly and be suiciders either. I just think some balance needs to happen. Of course a rifle doc is gonna say that the CM is not that big a deal, but take the doc piece away and add any other profession that people like to play and the prob surfaces again.
Mmaxx
Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:30 am
#23
First off yes everybody can be buffed so yes a buffed player take longer to kill then an unbuffed player. All CMs use thier points to add to their character just like everyone else and most have some sort of fighting ability. A nice portion of the MCMs are actualy MDocs as well leaving no room for significant defences or other fire power. A TKM pounding on a MCM is nothing like a TKM pounding on another TKM. A buffed MCMcan not take the pounding and will not last that 10 minute shuttle wait.
That being stated, it now takes a MCM to hit at 64m from the test I've seen. This also accompanies a healthy reduction in the damage possible. You will now be hit by poisons in the 40m range much more frequently since these ones will pack the most punch. Once you factor in the pause associated with the poison toss, stacking poisons will now be much more difficult if the CM is being actively pursued. Closing 40m when the CM is stuck for 4 seconds is not difficult and as you mentioned the first tactic employed is typically a dizzy/kd if possible.
I beleive you will find it much easier to handle the CMs for the next little while. A lot of the CMs came to the profession to exploit the know bugs in the profession. A lot of these individuals will now leave since the 'out of range havla bombing'is no longer possible. A lot of these players do not have any real tactics since they never learned how to play CM; just exploit it's bugs. You will kill these fotm CMs quickly. You might get lucky and kill a good CM now and again but the good ones will still cause you real problems.
either way you will probably always require the service of a doc to recover from being in the presence of a MCM. I know you don't like hearing that but CMs have the ability to be chemical warfare specialists and no matter what you are, even another CM, you will need a doc to counter a CM's presence...... or anyone else you fight that has anice DOT
-Hoodlum-
Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:17 pm
#24
Morath,
You speak of players mixing classes it is their choice to be a uber defense template... Everyone has their choice of what they want to be to counter certain types of attacks in PVP. As a MCM/MD I never really think I will ever kill anyone on my own even with spider venom poison. If they come right at me then I have a great chance of dying, if they panic and try to flee then they are dead meat. Even with my uber spider venom poisons I still have to hit them ONCE with my marksman 4 rifle.... Trying to shoot a defense stacker with marksman 4004 is very very sad hhe.
My template for PVP MCM/MD is based for group PVPing, I can do awesome support heals and cure all the states that may be placed on my team. I do NOTHING for damage and I get hit by almost every single attack directed at me. My job is to cure poisons, fires, heals and toss poison and diseases to slow down the enemy.
My template is a very very nice PVP support class, without the support I am pretty much dead.
dwoshor
Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:27 pm
#25
I pretty much agree to that, without the necessary support, we die really soon 
, sometimes just hope we have extra legs.. :
, sometimes just hope we have extra legs.. :
Morath360
Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:30 pm
#26
-Hoodlum- wrote:
Morath,
You speak of players mixing classes it is their choice to be a uber defense template... Everyone has their choice of what they want to be to counter certain types of attacks in PVP. As a MCM/MD I never really think I will ever kill anyone on my own even with spider venom poison. If they come right at me then I have a great chance of dying, if they panic and try to flee then they are dead meat. Even with my uber spider venom poisons I still have to hit them ONCE with my marksman 4 rifle.... Trying to shoot a defense stacker with marksman 4004 is very very sad hhe.
My template for PVP MCM/MD is based for group PVPing, I can do awesome support heals and cure all the states that may be placed on my team. I do NOTHING for damage and I get hit by almost every single attack directed at me. My job is to cure poisons, fires, heals and toss poison and diseases to slow down the enemy.
My template is a very very nice PVP support class, without the support I am pretty much dead.
Honesty, I don't get what your trying to say here. Up until 3 days ago, I was a MD/MCM as well. I know it has very weak defenses and on top of that I am a Wookiee with that character. I wholeheartedly agree your defenses stink. No one knows that any better than I do. However the facts remain the same. My original post stands. CM outdamages all others in pvp hands down. Having said that, I know changes are in the works. You seem to play a little more as the classes were intended I believe. However most CM in pvp do not have the lofty intent of helping out their group with healing and such. They are in it for the high damage that it can do to multiple targets that is nearly impossible to keep up with.
It is obvious that the devs are starting to believe this as well given the bit about the innoculations and area cures. This really kinda shows they acknowledge that the power and duration is the problem. Both of those solutions would in effect limit those two critical areas. You may be saying to me that they said nothing about reducing the power. Well that is true for now. However, if an innoculation takes place where it is 100% resisted for a period of time, then that is the ultimate reduction in power and duration.
Just to wrap up, yes I agree CM has low defenses. However, it does not change fact that it does the most damage right now. Also, the bit aboutstill having to shoot them and it being impossible on defenses stackers is really not the point. Whether you do the actual killing or not doesnt change the fact that you really did the person in.
Anyway nice thoughtful post..